Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

should be no problem to adjust the phase amps properly when he gets the Mini-E, but even than, the Leaf will have 12,5% less torque (40mm vs 35mm stator) or in other words it would need 12,5% more of that phase amps for same torque. hmm, maybe it can still keep up with the HS40 because of the higher efficiency :)
 
madin88 said:
should be no problem to adjust the phase amps properly when he gets the Mini-E, but even than, the Leaf will have 12,5% less torque (40mm vs 35mm stator) or in other words it would need 12,5% more of that phase amps for same torque. hmm, maybe it can still keep up with the HS40 because of the higher efficiency :)
Click to expand...

Is it as proportional as this? I have currently a 30mm stator leafbike 1000W motor... if I change it to a 1500W leaf I'd have 15% more torque (35mm stator) but if I get the Mxus V2 I'd end up with 33% more torque??
 
I know y'all have missed me...

I've had a hard time formulating this question, but when I discovered my fatbike rear wheel was dished (although I have a symmetrical frame), it dawned on me that a Leafbike motor may not line up properly to a disk brake on a fatbike, and maybe not even with the freewheel/chainline. In other words, the disk might be too far in to reach the caliper at the frame. And I don't know if about the gears--too far out would be worse than too far in (I'm not sure which would happen), but how do I know that's going to line up properly, either?

My fatbike uses a common SRAM BB5 disk brake, but of course in that wide frame, the mount on the LeafBike motor is probably going to be too far in. I had not thought about this, nor seen discussion of it.

My other thought was that people with 190mm and 215mm dropouts are going to have even different line-up points for the disk brake mount.

To complicate matters, my bike has a 10-speed cassette.

For buyers with fatbikes, how would one go about ordering one from LeafBike, so that brake and freewheel line up properly?

This is one of several reasons I think I am going to go with a fat mac after all. The fatmac looks like it has a large spacer for the disk brake. Plus, the "shoulders" are already going to be correct for a 170mm dropout frame, with no special requests. Paul said the fatmac could be adapted back to a 135mm dropout frame, but only with a new axle, apparently because of those shoulders. However, I don't know what would happen with that big brake spacer.

LeafBike actually does sell a thick brake spacer, but frustratingly, they don't even put the width of it in their description! Em3EV also sells narrow spacers for fine-tuning. I was thinking that with a combination of these, it might be possible--but it's not clear to me how to calculate exactly how much spacer you'd need. And it's not indicated if longer screws come with thick LeafBike spacer anyway, or where you'd get screws/bolts of proper length. I also wasn't sure if it was best to space the rotor towards the caliper, or possibly find a way to bring the caliper in towards the rotor, or a combination of both. So in short, I'm not sure how disk brake and possibly freewheel/cassette spacing would work on this, to ensure that the tire be centered, with everything lining up?

EM3EV has now gotten the quality 80mm rims in. They also know how to dish wheels, and this is not intimidating for them. Plus I hear their spoke jobs are pretty good. And communication with Paul is as good as communication is bad with LeafBike. Turns out Paul IS in fact British (living in China), which I always thought, but couldn't remember why I thought that. So that explains his fluency (and probably some other things).

Whether I get a LeafBike or not at this point I'd still like to know about this line-up, to help me and others understand how to work this on fatbikes, or if it's even a reasonable venture.
 
Update: So far my attempts at turning 4130 have proven I can't make anything close to a shiny finish yet. Still trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong. Either way, may have time soon to build up a spare shaft and try the cassette swap. I'll keep y'all posted!
 
cwah said:
madin88 said:
should be no problem to adjust the phase amps properly when he gets the Mini-E, but even than, the Leaf will have 12,5% less torque (40mm vs 35mm stator) or in other words it would need 12,5% more of that phase amps for same torque. hmm, maybe it can still keep up with the HS40 because of the higher efficiency :)
Click to expand...

Is it as proportional as this? I have currently a 30mm stator leafbike 1000W motor... if I change it to a 1500W leaf I'd have 15% more torque (35mm stator) but if I get the Mxus V2 I'd end up with 33% more torque??
Click to expand...
since the magnet area is bigger by same percentage it should roughly be like this with the torque.
what will be different are copper losses at given torque output since end turn losses remain the same no matter what stator size (the part of the copper outside the teeth). this would mean the wider the stator the better it is for copper losses vs torque.

personally i believe in praxis they go head to head. the leaf will create more heat in situation where high torque is required but because of its higher peak efficiency it will produce lower heat in situations with lower torque requirement compared to the H40.
if you would put both motors in a very small wheel, the leaf maybe even would have higher continuous power.
heat emissivitiy will be quite similar so only very minor differences here.

having the motor in justins simulator would be nice
 
So far my attempts at turning 4130 have proven I can't make anything close to a shiny finish yet.
Click to expand...

How hard is it? You may not get a good cut if your taking too small a bite at too high a speed. Vibration and tearing can be a difficult problem. Cutter profile is critical also as is coolant. If very hard, you may be getting into grinding territory.
 
I've tried a few different geometries of cutter, I'll check all the bits I've tried and update this post. Either way, fastest I've turned 1.5" bar is 1200 RPM, slowest is 70. Going faster seems to help, but only marginally. Cutting on a Grizzly 13x40 gunsmith lathe. Should be good enough for this sort of work, no? Deepest cut I've done is 0.100". I think I did a 0.200" as well but still just as bad. Should I be trying deeper cuts or shallower? Tool radius is either 1 or 2. Best finish I've found so far was with "light finishing chip breaker" DNGG 431 inserts. My trigon cutters are radius 2, and seem to do worse. Should I try steel or cemented carbide? Only ones I haven't tried yet... The finish is by no means terrible, but it's not at all what I'm used to compared to other steels I've run on the machine. I've easily done mirror finishes on mild steels and aluminum, as well as 304 SS. Doesn't appear to be a chatter issue, but who knows? Haven't switched from my piston-type BXA tool post to a wedge type; its the only other item I need to upgrade...
 
Kodin said:
I've tried a few different geometries of cutter, I'll check all the bits I've tried and update this post. Either way, fastest I've turned 1.5" bar is 1200 RPM, slowest is 70. Going faster seems to help, but only marginally. Cutting on a Grizzly 13x40 gunsmith lathe. Should be good enough for this sort of work, no? Deepest cut I've done is 0.100". I think I did a 0.200" as well but still just as bad. Should I be trying deeper cuts or shallower? Tool radius is either 1 or 2. Best finish I've found so far was with "light finishing chip breaker" DNGT 431 inserts. My trigon cutters are radius 2, and seem to do worse. Should I try steel or cemented carbide? Only ones I haven't tried yet... The finish is by no means terrible, but it's not at all what I'm used to compared to other steels I've run on the machine. I've easily done mirror finishes on mild steels and aluminum, as well as 304 SS. Doesn't appear to be a chatter issue, but who knows? Haven't switched from my piston-type BXA tool post to a wedge type; its the only other item I need to upgrade...
Click to expand...


You are not alone sir, I also had ugly finishes turning 4130.

Here is a thread of advice from others folks:

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/archive/index.php/t-53257.html
 
Inserts look good if fresh. Depending on hardness, you may be work hardening it by taking too small a bite (Feed rate - .01"/rev) on the feed rate and too high a depth of cut . Choke up the insert holder as close to the post as you can get it, make sure your carriage / cross slides are good and snug (grease them with heavy grease / way oil helps on lighter machines) and up the feed rate. Lock up any compound slides that you dont need. Looks like you may be taking too big a depth of cut for a light machine and it all is flexing out of shape and work hardening the surface as you go. Running it slow allows the steel to harden before you get back to the same spot one turn later.
 
What's a good feed rate to run then? I can go from ridiculously heavy to 0.0003" per rev, so give me a ballpark. Also, the machine is capable of half-inch cuts if you have a sharp enough bit. Dunno if it can be done in chromoly, but definitely steel. As dad accidentally broke one of my DNGG inserts and my only shim and I don't have spare shims yet, I'll probably be running the trigons for a few tests. Rather not waste too much material while I figure it out.

Also I mis-remembered; I thought they were DNGT, they are DNGG Kennametal's.
 
So looking closer, sounds like I need ~0.010 feed, and with a 1.5" piece, dial in as close to 533 RPM as possible, 0.100 depth of cut. I'm reading 625-800 SFM for optimal with modern insert designs. Go figure. I was running WAY slower feed rates.
 
It is a bit counter intuitive. You need to take a big enough bite in just the right amount of area, quickly, so not to heat up the surrounding area too much. A bit too slow and the heat soaks in and hardens the surrounding metal. Chips should be hot, not the base metal. Looks like you have another thread on this and you may want to cross post the link as you got some good info from a few posters. Agree on the radius of the cutter also. Carbide is fine. No need for PCD unless you doing this for a living.
 
Anyone got any thoughts on my question, post 5 on Page 23. Bump.
 
SprocketLocket said:
I know y'all have missed me...

I've had a hard time formulating this question, but when I discovered my fatbike rear wheel was dished (although I have a symmetrical frame), it dawned on me that a Leafbike motor may not line up properly to a disk brake on a fatbike, and maybe not even with the freewheel/chainline. In other words, the disk might be too far in to reach the caliper at the frame. And I don't know if about the gears--too far out would be worse than too far in (I'm not sure which would happen), but how do I know that's going to line up properly, either?

My fatbike uses a common SRAM BB5 disk brake, but of course in that wide frame, the mount on the LeafBike motor is probably going to be too far in. I had not thought about this, nor seen discussion of it.

My other thought was that people with 190mm and 215mm dropouts are going to have even different line-up points for the disk brake mount.

To complicate matters, my bike has a 10-speed cassette.

For buyers with fatbikes, how would one go about ordering one from LeafBike, so that brake and freewheel line up properly?

This is one of several reasons I think I am going to go with a fat mac after all. The fatmac looks like it has a large spacer for the disk brake. Plus, the "shoulders" are already going to be correct for a 170mm dropout frame, with no special requests. Paul said the fatmac could be adapted back to a 135mm dropout frame, but only with a new axle, apparently because of those shoulders. However, I don't know what would happen with that big brake spacer.

LeafBike actually does sell a thick brake spacer, but frustratingly, they don't even put the width of it in their description! Em3EV also sells narrow spacers for fine-tuning. I was thinking that with a combination of these, it might be possible--but it's not clear to me how to calculate exactly how much spacer you'd need. And it's not indicated if longer screws come with thick LeafBike spacer anyway, or where you'd get screws/bolts of proper length. I also wasn't sure if it was best to space the rotor towards the caliper, or possibly find a way to bring the caliper in towards the rotor, or a combination of both. So in short, I'm not sure how disk brake and possibly freewheel/cassette spacing would work on this, to ensure that the tire be centered, with everything lining up?

EM3EV has now gotten the quality 80mm rims in. They also know how to dish wheels, and this is not intimidating for them. Plus I hear their spoke jobs are pretty good. And communication with Paul is as good as communication is bad with LeafBike. Turns out Paul IS in fact British (living in China), which I always thought, but couldn't remember why I thought that. So that explains his fluency (and probably some other things).

Whether I get a LeafBike or not at this point I'd still like to know about this line-up, to help me and others understand how to work this on fatbikes, or if it's even a reasonable venture.
Click to expand...

No answer yet as I've not set up my motor in a dropout because I'm building a new swing arm. I'll be working on it this weekend so might have more info for you soon! Its my vacation so yes I really will be working on it finally.
 
Did anyone get their stock leafmotor temperature sensor working? if so, what's your setup?

edit: mainly interested if someone got it working with a cycle analyst, so the CA could dial back the watts if the motor starts to overheat.

In the pictures of the lcd they include in the leafmotor kits, it looks like there's a temperature gauge in the lower right corner. Just curious if anyone got the temp sensor working another way.
 
EDIT:

Since I have a build thread up now, I don't need to hijack this thread; moved all info to there.
 
Well so far, I'm quite pleased with the performance of my '1500W' Leaf Motor.
[youtube]Ig9Oi8HfuCw[/youtube]
My Fighter is running the Leaf @ 52V and KiwiEV is running a HS4065 @ 72V. Performance wise we were about equal.
In case it's not obvious, I'm the one in the full face helmet.

Cheers
 
Nice vid :D . What size wheel do you run with your leaf motor?
 
I thought I saw a crocodile in the water in that vid. BTW, from your pic in the your name title, does Australia ever have snow? maybe the southern parts?

Riding is all cool and everything, be cooler to see a CA readout at the end of such videos.
 
FluxShifter said:
Nice vid :D . What size wheel do you run with your leaf motor?
Click to expand...
24" with a 2.4" tire in this video. Works well. :) I wouldn't want to run these power levels (~50A+) with a 26" tire for long on a sealed motor...heat would become an issue.

markz said:
I thought I saw a crocodile in the water in that vid. BTW, from your pic in the your name title, does Australia ever have snow? maybe the southern parts?
Click to expand...
Lol, no crocodiles in these parts. Gotta go way further north for them. :)
We get plenty of snow around the Australian alps and there are a dozen or so ski resorts. :) My avatar pic is from a ride I did last Winter near my home in Canberra.
[youtube]QE4OgQbd4J8[/youtube]

markz said:
Riding is all cool and everything, be cooler to see a CA readout at the end of such videos.
Click to expand...
I agree...I don't even have a CA on my Fighter at the moment though. I have nothing for display in fact. The CA that was on my Fighter is now on my recumbent commuter and the plan was to have my Adaptto Mini-E + Display up and running on my Fighter by now, but it's gone back to Russia for the second time now for repairs now, so I'm just using an 18Fet Infineon for now.

Cheers
 
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