Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

[Peter Svancarek]

You're a lot braver than I am since I wouldn't ride a recumbent or trike in socal; too many SUV's with drivers that are distracted. Probably no safer on a 26" bike but it feels like I have better vision and visibility. May just be me though. I'm riding less on the road and more off road.

Maybe I'm stupider?
Anyway, there is not that many SUVs in Europe, especially in middle and east one. My experience tells me, that you aren't safer because you are on bigger bicycle. You are safer if you are on something unusual. When I'm on recumbent, drivers are slowing down, making me more space- most probably because they want to see what I'm driving Recumbent bike is easier to handle, when out of seat- it is much easier to get it through such obstacles as stairs at subway... but trike has superior stability, handling and driving characteristics on all surfaces. It is heavier, over 25kg since I built it from 2mm steel(limitations of my hobby equipment and welding capabilities) but still I managed to get it through critical subway even with about 15kg of groceries. Alone, I didn't want help of other people even if they offered- If I couldn't do it alone, then I would need to find different way to store I usually visit.

Anyway, the pedal electric(or series hybrid) transmission tricycle is dream of mine for more than 20 years. I saw presentation of Andreas Fuchs and video of his tricycle. the video is impossible to find on Youtube, but there are some articles about it. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/302328785_Assessment_of_the_interest_of_series_hybridisation_for_a_human-powered_vehicle_Electric_pedal_generator_pre-sizing https://myownhybrid.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/seriesdrivehybridvelomobiles.pdf https://www.hupi.org/HPeJ/0015/0015.html and many other. At that time there was nothing allowing amateur building of this system. Then a year or two ago I again accidentally found this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hfClQh3rxM I wasn't sure about making my own motor, and I didn't look on pages with electric motors for bicycles... just this year I was looking on motors for middrives and I accidentally got redirected on direct drive motor of Leaf 14"/ 1000W where unbelievable peak efficiency of over 90% is stated. regen ability. reverse drive ability... The dream looked much more real after that.
There is still the problem of making generator- if I would like to reach higher efficiency then I would probably need to build core-less(iron-less) axial flux generator with Litz wire wave form winding... but what was used in video I mentioned here it was solved using 250W geared hub... the efficiency would be probably only about 80%.

 

[2old]

To each his own; pretty simply, I'm averse to recumbents and trikes.

 

[ZeroEm]

by Peter Svancarek » Aug 29 2020 4:10am

2old wrote: ↑Aug 28 2020 7:54pm
You're a lot braver than I am since I wouldn't ride a recumbent or trike in socal; too many SUV's with drivers that are distracted. Probably no safer on a 26" bike but it feels like I have better vision and visibility. May just be me though. I'm riding less on the road and more off road.

Maybe I'm stupider?
Anyway, there is not that many SUVs in Europe, especially in middle and east one. My experience tells me, that you aren't safer because you are on bigger bicycle. You are safer if you are on something unusual. When I'm on recumbent, drivers are slowing down, making me more space- most probably because they want to see what I'm driving Recumbent bike is easier to handle, when out of seat- it is much easier to get it through such obstacles as stairs at subway... but trike has superior stability, handling and driving characteristics on all surfaces. It is heavier, over 25kg since I built it from 2mm steel(limitations of my hobby equipment and welding capabilities) but still I managed to get it through critical subway even with about 15kg of groceries. Alone, I didn't want help of other people even if they offered- If I couldn't do it alone, then I would need to find different way to store I usually visit.

If 2Old is talking about the USA he is correct. We always have a few who do not think any type of bike should be on their road.
Mostly stick to trail systems for safety but do ride on roads with awareness of my impending doom.

We talk efficiency but think about how many watts we are drawing. Talking peddle electric is not the same as paddle assist. Bikers who mostly peddle want big wheels, get lower power use by peddling. that is not true if you do not want to peddle much or not at all. You have a small wheel so take advantage of it get a low turn motor. You can always limit speed, I used to run a 3 way switch for speed limits not power.

 

[John in CR]

If 2Old is talking about the USA he is correct. We always have a few who do not think any type of bike should be on their road.
Mostly stick to trail systems for safety but do ride on roads with awareness of my impending doom.

It takes a twisted view for Balmorhea to refer to that as First World as if it's something superior much less even desirable. From the standpoint of the motorists though I understand feeling animosity toward anything impeding the flow of traffic. Having so many police that they have nothing better to do than hassle ebikers doesn't sound very First World to me either.

We talk efficiency but think about how many watts we are drawing. Talking peddle electric is not the same as paddle assist. Bikers who mostly peddle want big wheels, get lower power use by peddling. that is not true if you do not want to peddle much or not at all. You have a small wheel so take advantage of it get a low turn motor. You can always limit speed, I used to run a 3 way switch for speed limits not power.

Not only is my bike more efficient, but it also consumes less if ridden at Balmorhea's chosen speed, however, I maintain that faster is not only more convenient, but can also be significantly safer despite higher risk in the event of a crash.

I have respect for pedaling for sport or exercise, but not so much for basic transportation except from the standpoint of going minimalist in a world driven to excess by big companies feeding the flaws in human nature. Food is both an expensive and inefficient source of energy for transportation, so without wholesale changes in where we live and work along with the infrastructure and city layouts to make it work, pedal power isn't a solution that can be adopted on a big enough scale to make a difference. Electric transport can, though I'm not talking about 2 ton behemoths that the auto industry is pushing, but is just a pointless change from ICE driven cars with a common flaw in logic. It makes no sense to hog the world's resources to have a 2 ton vehicle transport 100-300kg of people.

As far as winding, I favor the faster winding not only to more easily run a smaller wheel, but even in the same size wheel to run a lower voltage battery as well as make the path to a more useful vehicle easier. Balmorhea is so focused on giant wheels on the pretense that it's more comfortable that he'll run his motor in a significantly less efficient range at any speed, yet the concept of full suspension to smooth the bumps isn't considered. What kind of sense does that make, especially with a big DD hubbie hammering directly up your spine no matter how large the wheel?

 

[Balmorhea]

Balmorhea is so focused on giant wheels on the pretense that it's more comfortable that he'll run his motor in a significantly less efficient range at any speed, yet the concept of full suspension to smooth the bumps isn't considered.

I don’t go for air conditioning, surround sound stereo, or cup holders either.

Remember when you resort to tired old tropes about food being more energy intensive than coal fired power plants, that a lot of resources are squandered caring for those with heart disease and strokes that could have been averted if they’d only pushed some pedals along the way.

 

[John in CR]

Balmorhea is so focused on giant wheels on the pretense that it's more comfortable that he'll run his motor in a significantly less efficient range at any speed, yet the concept of full suspension to smooth the bumps isn't considered.

I don’t go for air conditioning, surround sound stereo, or cup holders either.

Remember when you resort to tired old tropes about food being more energy intensive than coal fired power plants, that a lot of resources are squandered caring for those with heart disease and strokes that could have been averted if they’d only pushed some pedals along the way.

LOL. You missed the boat once again. Food is expensive and its conversion to mechanical energy by the human body is inefficient. What old trope is that? Stop trying to change the subject. No wonder you don't get the concept that any electric motor has to be geared properly to function optimally.

 

[ZeroEm]

by John in CR » Aug 30 2020 2:30am

ZeroEm wrote: ↑Aug 29 2020 7:42pm
If 2Old is talking about the USA he is correct. We always have a few who do not think any type of bike should be on their road.
Mostly stick to trail systems for safety but do ride on roads with awareness of my impending doom.

It takes a twisted view for Balmorhea to refer to that as First World as if it's something superior much less even desirable. From the standpoint of the motorists though I understand feeling animosity toward anything impeding the flow of traffic. Having so many police that they have nothing better to do than hassle ebikers doesn't sound very First World to me either.

ZeroEm wrote: ↑Aug 29 2020 7:42pm
We talk efficiency but think about how many watts we are drawing. Talking peddle electric is not the same as paddle assist. Bikers who mostly peddle want big wheels, get lower power use by peddling. that is not true if you do not want to peddle much or not at all. You have a small wheel so take advantage of it get a low turn motor. You can always limit speed, I used to run a 3 way switch for speed limits not power.

Not only is my bike more efficient, but it also consumes less if ridden at Balmorhea's chosen speed, however, I maintain that faster is not only more convenient, but can also be significantly safer despite higher risk in the event of a crash.

I have respect for pedaling for sport or exercise, but not so much for basic transportation except from the standpoint of going minimalist in a world driven to excess by big companies feeding the flaws in human nature. Food is both an expensive and inefficient source of energy for transportation, so without wholesale changes in where we live and work along with the infrastructure and city layouts to make it work, pedal power isn't a solution that can be adopted on a big enough scale to make a difference. Electric transport can, though I'm not talking about 2 ton behemoths that the auto industry is pushing, but is just a pointless change from ICE driven cars with a common flaw in logic. It makes no sense to hog the world's resources to have a 2 ton vehicle transport 100-300kg of people.

As far as winding, I favor the faster winding not only to more easily run a smaller wheel, but even in the same size wheel to run a lower voltage battery as well as make the path to a more useful vehicle easier. Balmorhea is so focused on giant wheels on the pretense that it's more comfortable that he'll run his motor in a significantly less efficient range at any speed, yet the concept of full suspension to smooth the bumps isn't considered. What kind of sense does that make, especially with a big DD hubbie hammering directly up your spine no matter how large the wheel?

Have been watching Justin's latest video's from his online Presentation's; Efficiency, Multi-Motor Drive Systems which are quite enlightening. John in CR will say "told you so!"

My take away; focus on running where less watts are used not where the efficiency range of the motor is. adjust motor size not windings to your riding style. Best to watch the videos. The Multi motor Drive systems was the most interesting. I'm all in now John in CR.

 

[Hickbeard]

Are all these generic Chinese controllers compatible with the leaf motor and LCD 8 screen?

I'm looking for a 48v 250v controller compatible with the leaf motor & LCD 8.




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[Balmorhea]

Are all these generic Chinese controllers compatible with the leaf motor and LCD 8 screen?

The motor doesn't care what controller is pushing it. The display is specific to the controller, however. You generally have to get a display with an accompanying controller, or at least get them both from the same supplier. Wire assignments and plugs can differ.

Why in heaven's name would you use a 1500W motor on only 250W of power? You'll be carrying around something like 10 extra pounds of motor that aren't working for you.

 

[John in CR]

Are all these generic Chinese controllers compatible with the leaf motor and LCD 8 screen?

The motor doesn't care what controller is pushing it.

This isn't true anymore. Some of the cheapest controllers still send the motor a more squared waveform in the pulses sent down the phase wires, and some send squarish pulses that more approximate a sinus waveform for more quiet operation most noticeable during takeoff where the square wave controllers have a knocking sound during takeoff. However, a motor has its best and most efficient operation when the waveform sent from the controller matches the shape of BEMF produced by the motor, which isn't necessarily a sinus waveform. That's where the newest breed of FOC (Field Oriented Control) controllers come into play. They can make our motors run cooler and more efficient for the same work output, which shows up as a noticeable decrease in consumption and increased range, so while they cost more they can actually pay for themselves in the long run.

With some of the FOC controllers, such as the Nuculars that I now use, you get a lot more advanced features that make increased efficiency just icing on the cake. Plus they're a lot smaller than what we're used to with the cheap China controllers. I just got my first Micro Nucular 6F in today and it's just over 1" thick by 2" wide by just over 3" long and despite its size can handle any voltage up to a 22s battery and can handle up to about 90A battery current and 120A phase current. With things like torque throttle, variable regen braking, and simple to program current and throttle tuning, it makes any ebike more pleasant to ride. It's also super easy to set up, just connect the motor wires to the controller, set the pole count (the default is the 23 pole pair that's so common like on the Leaf), and run the auto-setup function, which automatically figures out the wiring and tunes for the voltage output of your throttle and brake. If the motor runs backward after setup, just swap any 2 phase wires and it's ready to go in forward. I haven't even scratched the surface of the functions available, and more are added several times a year via easy to install firmware updates.

I assure you the less than $250 spent on an advanced Nucular controller with display for easy programming and live data like speed, voltage, controller and motor temps, and much more, is a purchase you'll never regret. That's coming from Mr. Frugal who stayed with cheapy Chinese controllers longer than he should have, and because my motors are 6 phase I have to buy 2 controllers for every motor, and it's still worth every penny and more. When you spend $500 or more on a cell phone, but turn around and want to buy a $20 controller for your ebike, it's not a wise savings. Sure prices will come down significantly with mass production, but some of the required components are too costly to ever be like the Chinese super-cheapies, and mass production is still too far away to wait.

 

[Hickbeard]

Just looking to have a play really. 250w is max legal limit in UK. So want to see how it rides if made legal. Already have the LCD 8 so figured would make use of what I had already.

Agree about the nucular controller but not an option at the moment although we will upgrade in time.

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[John in CR]

Just looking to have a play really. 250w is max legal limit in UK. So want to see how it rides if made legal. Already have the LCD 8 so figured would make use of what I had already.

Agree about the nucular controller but not an option at the moment although we will upgrade in time.

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It sucks that pedalists got to make the rules for you guys, since they don't want anything with greater performance than a bicycle to be allowed. The problem is that there's a wide range of highly useful vehicles at higher power that mix more safely and courteously with existing vehicles that don't need to be treated as motorcycles. How is the 250W limit defined, output or input? If output the it could be truly useful, though I've never seen a control system try to limit based on output, which would give you loads of very low rpm torque and then torque would decrease linearly with speed since power = torque x rpm.

I agree with Balmorhea that a 250W controller on a Leaf motor doesn't make a lot of sense unless you already have the motor or you plan to build a more capable ebike with it later and just want to play around with it at the legal limit in the meantime.

Are there really so many police in your that they have nothing better to do than hassle ebikers? I've seen plenty of videos of guys in the UK running lots of power riding on the street. You can always set the Nucular up and even have a switch to go from legal power to fun power. I'd say the only reason to go cheap now is to have something to use while waiting for your Nuc to arrive, or if you're still unsure whether ebiking is for you. If the latter, I'd say hook up with a forum member and go for a test ride on something with fun power, and you'll know instantly.

 

[Hickbeard]

250w output.

Also not allowed throttle.

Not too many police but there's only soo many cyclists you can piss off before you get grassed up lol.

Currently riding it in standard form. 37.5mph top speed, awesome, awesome, awesome fun

Want to compare legal ish and fun.

Also been asked to fab up couple bikes for people so thinking of options for them.

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[Balmorhea]

How is the 250W limit defined, output or input? If output the it could be truly useful, though I've never seen a control system try to limit based on output, which would give you loads of very low rpm torque and then torque would decrease linearly with speed since power = torque x rpm.

I wonder if there’s a practical way for a DIYer to accomplish this? I have thought for a long time that the usual 750W limit in the USA would be a lot more satisfactory If implemented as a torque * rpm limit with a motor that put out >100 Nm. Is there enough control built into say a Cycle Analyst to do it, If you could identify the current/rpm curve you wanted?

As it is, it seems like manufacturers often “comply” by using motors whose output is well over the power limit, claiming a continuous rating of 750W based on nothing identifiable, and imposing an electronic speed limiter.

 

[John in CR]

How is the 250W limit defined, output or input? If output the it could be truly useful, though I've never seen a control system try to limit based on output, which would give you loads of very low rpm torque and then torque would decrease linearly with speed since power = torque x rpm.

I wonder if there’s a practical way for a DIYer to accomplish this? I have thought for a long time that the usual 750W limit in the USA would be a lot more satisfactory If implemented as a torque * rpm limit with a motor that put out >100 Nm. Is there enough control built into say a Cycle Analyst to do it, If you could identify the current/rpm curve you wanted?

As it is, it seems like manufacturers often “comply” by using motors whose output is well over the power limit, claiming a continuous rating of 750W based on nothing identifiable, and imposing an electronic speed limiter.

Yeah I've thought about how to do it for some time and should ask Vasily (I'm sure he could do something in the software), that would give you guys the 750W (or 1000W in California) limit from essentially 0 rpm, and set that up based on predicted output curves. That would make ebikes far more useful as basic transportation that could mix better with traffic, since 750W output at very low rpm is tremendous torque, but with a 750W output limit across the rpm spectrum would still be a low enough speed vehicle that no one could complain about it being unlicensed. With your too big for a DD hubbie 26" wheel using the Leaf motor 750W is 135Nm of torque (92lbs of thrust) at about 4mph. It takes almost a 6kw setup to get that kind or thrust at that speed.

 

[ZeroEm]

Spend a lot of time on the trail system a mile from my house in a few years it will encircle the city as it merges with other trails. Don't think dirt and rocks it's concrete and asphalt with a yellow stripe down the middle. to drive around should be over a 100 miles, its not straight and flat its up, down, turns and switch backs. It's a nice ride my last ride I seen a speed limit sign on the trail 15 mph/24 kph, don't think it is for the whole trail. Quite the surprise but we do have road bikers non electric that fly at 20 mph/32 kph on the trail. I only ride my trike at 15 mph on the trail, if faster start scrubbing my front tires on the turns and increase the wear.
About half of my miles are on this green way, below 15 mph with pas it's just above 100w. 250w is not that crazy I could stay around 20 mph and that is fast as I can peddle for long distances. This is where I get my low watts/Km. I had a switch to set legal power but I used grin's motor simulator to figure out motor power not watts out of the battery which was 100w higher. After a while I thought who is going to test how much power the motor is using. Now don't even worry about it. I have my max pas is 700w but never use it, 500w is crazy high for peddling. Not counting hills, long or steep hills I have a 3 pos analog switch for power levels I use with my throttle and just hit my throttle until the next hill. I don't like leveling up and down the pas. Could live with pas and a turbo switch for hills. The leafmotor is perfect for this low cogging but can accept the 2600w I throw at it once in a blue moon.



The leafmotor at less than 750 motor watts pulls a 7% at 15 mph. Yes the battery watts are higher. So if I get to pick I clam motor watts .
The above is not my motor it is a 5T.



This is the high turn 7T leafmotor, not much difference in watts on the hill. So why get a high turn motor?
Did not spend time trying to make the charts match speed. Think they show the difference in turn count. low end torque vs top speed. middle will be the same for given amps, the low turn has better copper fill.

 

[John in CR]

ZeroEm,

It seems like the Leaf is perfect for your needs, and that paved pathway sounds nice. Even I could go for something more bicycle-like if I got to use something like that to get around. About 90% of our metro area roads have been resurfaced in the past 2 years, so with traffic all but non-existent thanks to the virus even regular roadways that are typically packed with traffic are an ebiker's dream since March. Plus there have been all kinds of vehicular travel restrictions since March that change all the time and are confusing, but none of those apply to my bicimotos. That gives only me and few others true freedom of transportation for over 6 months now.

 

[danielrlee]

Just looking to have a play really. 250w is max legal limit in UK.

You've misunderstood UK pedelec law. There is no limit on output power, just rated motor power. Your Leaf motor will never be UK legal.

The following post is the most comprehensive on the subject that I know of:

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/pedelec-law-the-details.37594/

 

[Hickbeard]

Just looking to have a play really. 250w is max legal limit in UK.

You've misunderstood UK pedelec law. There is no limit on output power, just rated motor power. Your Leaf motor will never be UK legal.

The following post is the most comprehensive on the subject that I know of:

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/pedelec-law-the-details.37594/

That's really interesting.

I was looking into going for msva later on when I think of building a moped.

S-pedelec was a possible option but you still need a number plate, then insurance, etc. Not sure how much S-pedelec insurance would be. So might as well go full moped.

So kits are kind of an in between area?

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[john61ct]

All around the world, in jurisdictions where this stuff is barely enforced, those willing to take the risks rely on a stealth approach, and

the cops being ignorant and/or just not caring that much, having bigger concerns as it should be.

What the literal laws are as written thus being largely irrelevant.

Some European jurisdictions apparently do strictly enforce their regs, or do not even allow DIY efforts full stop!

Personally I would not want to live in that sort of location, options then become very limited.

 

[SlowCo]

All around the world, in jurisdictions where this stuff is barely enforced, those willing to take the risks rely on a stealth approach, and

the cops being ignorant and/or just not caring that much, having bigger concerns as it should be.

What the literal laws are as written thus being largely irrelevant.

Some European jurisdictions apparently do strictly enforce their regs, or do not even allow DIY efforts full stop!

Personally I would not want to live in that sort of location, options then become very limited.

It's more about being legal and thus able to insure a motorized vehicle. Maybe you're rich enough to risk having to pay all damages in case of an accident but most people can't take that risk...

 

[Hickbeard]

I actually think that cyclists should have to have public liability insurance.

I don't think that ebikes should have to be registered as mopeds until they're up their in the power and speed range although. That's quite easy to do.

But I imagine being hit by a moped at 30mph is still very different than being hit by a S-pedelec at 30mph. Could be wrong mind you. Unless you have a very heavy ebike

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[John in CR]

Just looking to have a play really. 250w is max legal limit in UK.

You've misunderstood UK pedelec law. There is no limit on output power, just rated motor power. Your Leaf motor will never be UK legal.

The following post is the most comprehensive on the subject that I know of:

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/pedelec-law-the-details.37594/

That may apply to manufactured ebikes, but DIY from your link says 250W max pedal assist and that you have to pedal unless you pay for the test and apply for the Single Vehicle Approval. That tells me you should be fine and in full compliance with a smart enough controller to deliver whatever is necessary for 250W output up to the legal speed of 15.5mph .

BTW, bravo to anyone who sticks their noses up to the man and rides whatever they want, as long as they don't ride like asses. I won't build a bike or sell any parts to anyone I think will ride like an ass.

 

[john61ct]

It's more about being legal and thus able to insure a motorized vehicle. Maybe you're rich enough to risk having to pay all damages in case of an accident but most people can't take that risk...

Or poor enough you're judgement proof, works even better.

Best of all, live where nothing at all is required!

 

[Balmorhea]

It's more about being legal and thus able to insure a motorized vehicle. Maybe you're rich enough to risk having to pay all damages in case of an accident but most people can't take that risk...

Or poor enough you're judgement proof, works even better.

Best of all, live where nothing at all is required!

Yay, lawless wastelands!