Li-ion or LiFePo4?

kmxtornado

10 kW
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
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Bay Area
I understand the advantages of LiFePo4 over Li-ion, but Li-ion is cheaper and the more dense making the battery pack smaller, lighter and easier to fit in my rear rack pack. Trying to justify getting one over the other. Curious why you guys picked on vs the other. Comment if you use a different battery chemistry and please say why. Thanks!
 
I've used both, in various formats over the past decade+; these are all posted about in my Crazybike2 and/or Delta Tripper and/or SB Cruiser threads, some have separate "review" threads too, if you need more details.

I thought I would really like an EM3EV A123 (LiFePO4 (LFP) pouch style pack I got (used), but it didn't have anything like the oomph I expected, even compared to a similar-voltage EIG NMC (LiIon (LI)) pouch style pack I also got used, on the same controller and motor. I expected the A123 to perform better, but at best it was the same. I don't really know why it didn't do as well; I never opened up the heatshrink to test cells and whatnot (other than to get to the BMS balance connnector to verify balance). It's been years since I used it so I don't recall the specifics of performance issues.

I have also had very large format Thundersky prismatic LFP cells, and they pretty much sucked in every way I can think of, but I expected that based on previous stuff I'd read that called them Thundersag. :lol:

I also got a well-used and already-broken 18650 LFP (unknown cell brand) pack, and it pretty much sucked too, but I also expected that since it was used and broken, even after I fixed what I could of it. :) Lots of voltage sag under even "normal" loads, easy imbalance, etc.

I've had a small 18650 LI pack and it had issues, too, partly from a poorly-designed BMS that "locks up" and has to be reset, but mostly from cells that were simply not really capable of what they should have been from the specs the pack itself had (it heated up rapidly, too high internal resistance of the cells, possibly the interconnects as well but never tested those). I think that if the pack had been large enough with enough parallel cells in each group (only had 4p), it might've been able to do what it said it could.

I've used a small pouch-style LI pack in the frame of a Cemoto bike; it was ok for it's purpose, but it would not have been able to do the things I need to do in any of my everyday applications very well.


So far the only cells I have used and actually liked the performance and reliability of have been the EIG C020 NMC LI, which is unfortunate since they haven't been made in a decade or so. :(

Someday I'll have to try something new, and probably will end up with something from Batteryhookup or the like, some module out of a big EV most likely, adapted to my usage.

I expect it's likely to be a LI pack because most of the EV packs they get are that...but if they have a good well-performing LFP pack I can adapt, I'd be just as likely to get that.


Out of the many threads I've read and helped on for battery choices, problems, etc., I'd say that the main thing isn't the chemistry itself, it is the "cheap factor" (which is often reflected in the price, but even expensive packs can have the same problems--just less likely).

Going for the cheap(est) thing has tended to cause more people issues than anything else, as typically either the packs aren't made of well-matched equal-capability cells (sometimes actually recycled garbage cells, but mostly just no-name unmatched cells, sometimes claiming to be some specific brand / model, mostly not), or they're built poorly (causing high resistance in interconnections, or ICs that actually come apart under vibration/mechanical stress which disconnects some of the cells in some groups reducing pack capability and capacity).

Sometimes the packs are ok, but the BMS is a poor design or poorly made, and causes problems with the pack from one problem or another.

Sometimes it's both, so the imbalances created by mismatched cells is worsened by a BMS with no balancing function, or an actively-failed balancer system.
 
I don't mind paying more, but do you have a source where I can buy LiFePo4 batteries? not cells, but the full pack? Looking for a plug and play. Soldering connectors I'm okay with. With Cell_man's website gone, I figure there might be a new source these days? Anywhere you can direct me to?
 
I don't know where a good place to buy good batteries is...I just know the bad ones when I see them. :lol:

FWIW, Cell_man's site seems to be up
https://em3ev.com/
though I haven't clicked on anything to see if it actually works. :lol:
 
Oh cool, I didn't realize he had a new domain. Thanks!
 
I use LiFePo4 because I can plug it in at night and go to sleep and not worry that it might burn my house down.
 
e-beach said:
I use LiFePo4 because I can plug it in at night and go to sleep and not worry that it might burn my house down.

Is it really that much safer? And charging overnight is okay? I was told that, but had my doubts.
 
kmxtornado said:
Is it really that much safer? And charging overnight is okay? I was told that, but had my doubts.

LiFePo4 is relativity inert. Which is also why LiFePo4 cells are bigger and heavier then other types of lithium. The manufactures have to make them bigger to make up for the lower energy density.

:D :bolt:
 
I love my Lifepo4 A123 20ah 24s pack 8 yrs as two 12s to fit big and heavy 1480cycles .
Battery Hookup
51.8v 35ah 1.77/1.84kWh 14s Lithium Ion Module
$275.00
I didn't see a picture of it but it was 18 in Long if that would fit and you know how to put a Bluetooth BMS on it you're in the boat
 
this is the difference between li-ion and lifepo4. I built 2 packs, one using 26650 lifepo4 cells, the other using 18650 li-ion. They both take up about the same footprint and weigh about the same. Lifepo4 is 10 ah and the li-ion is 31 ah.
Also li-ion is easier to determine the SOC just by reading the voltage, for lifepo4 you need a coulombcounter to get an accurate SOC.


comparism lithium.jpg
 
you can get cheap lifepo4 these days. batteryhookup or i have a bunch of cells im selling. the energy density is getting closer to li-ion chemistry with the k2 26650 cells having 3800mah. theyre better in every other way other than energy density.

i like lifepo4 for the many more cycles, and safety ,and ability to charge and discharge a lot, its ability to be abused and come back, and its consistent discharge voltage keeping a consistent speed and power output.
 
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