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Lithium Batt House fire Melbourne

K

Kabbage

⚡ Regular
Joined
May 19, 2012
Messages
105
Location
Melbourne, Australia
this is gonna be interesting. hope we can find out for sure what happened but sounds like he was bulk charging lipo that puffed up as it went to 4.5V and when he squeezed it hard that caused the SEI layer to crack off on a lot of places all at once so it could have been like an explosion.

usually the SEI breaks down in a progression of thermal events as i understood it breaking off exposes the carbon underneath and the thermal runaway starts from one spot.

but in this case he may have triggered much of the anode to go all at once and it coulda exploded when he squeezed it. jmho

one more fire to add to inevitable restrictions on lipo.
 
My brother in law works for the MFB. I'm keen to get some more info.

Strange to squeeze it.
 
"He dropped the battery onto the floor and ran outside to cool his hand under a tap," the MFB spokesman said.

Who the hell leaves a flaming fireball on their bedroom floor to go put their hand under a tap ??
A 47 yo still living with their parents I guess... :lol:

I suspect there's more to the story, even when pushed to the limit lipos dont just suddenly explode.
It must have been mighty puffed prior to letting go. Maybe that's what he meant by "odd looking"

Again though he's violated one of the lipo rules about charging indoors.

It'll be interesting if more info becomes available. No reason to suggest it was ebike related, it may well have been a damaged hobby RC pack from a crashed plane or copter.

edit: Cool Sam, that is your duty for this afternoon! make the call, son
 
Yeah he's rather good for the behind the news stuff. Stuff like media reports a hero lifting women out of a first floor apartment fire in Melbourne, doesn't mention it's some celeb at a knock shop full of burmese illegals and his wife's girlfriends are none the wiser... :twisted:
 
Hyena said:
....A 47 yo still living with their parents...

... No reason to suggest it was ebike related....
Click to expand...

No reason?

No specific reason, maybe... But that demographic fits my stereotype for your typical ebike builder....

Saw him briefly on the news tonight too - I didn't recognise him from any of the group-rides that I've been to...
 
Sounds like a few of the "lipo rules" were broken. But no telling which ones. We can only guess at this point. Guess we got a new one now. " When a charging pack scalds your hand, don't drop it".

Charging in a safer place is a good idea of course. I do charge inside, but it's inches from a door to outside, and I have that flat shovel right there by the door. It might not be enough. But if I see pack bloating while I charge, I will grab it with the shovel for sure.

In a way, there is only one lipo rule. PAY ATTENTION.
 
Some people are asking for troubles playing with fire, some other are just ignorant idiots who don't know better than squeezing a puffing lipo brick and leave it in the house to burn. I doubt it is ebike related, my guess is an RC toy truck owned by a retarded with 2 big thumbs and a tiny brain.
 
Hard to say how smart the guy is. I watched a genuine genius put his nose an inch from a half pound of black powder and light it.

He was drunk of course. So were we, but we all said, "Hey don't do tha,,,awwww." He got a laugh out of us once we knew he still had eyes.
 
dnmun said:
"don't squeeze when over chargin" so you still have a hand to wipe your butt with the 'Charmin'.
Click to expand...
Amusement aside, as such a disaster should be a precautionary tale for anyone involved with lithium-ion, I do the touch test while charging. Heat is an obvious sign of trouble, inside the cell, at various lead points and in wires. Too much current flow for the internal resistance at any point will dissipate as heat, and too much heat can lead to combustion, and thence to thermal runaway. I don't have any heat whatsoever generated, except in the charger, which has a good fan, so stays cool to the touch. That doesn't mean, however, that at some point in time there would be component failure, so the touch test is something I'll continue to do. I'd never allow enough heat that I'd have to remove my hand. If I did, the first thing I'd do is remove current. For more personal opinion, see my Cautionary Tales at Arkmundi's saga making & maintaining an A123 AMP20 battery
 
My guess is RC hobbyist, not ebike builder. I think most ebike builders have a pretty good idea they are messing around with some powerful stuff when their lipo batteries are launching them down the street at 50km/h. Some of the poor RC guys probably don't have the same respect for the batteries, as to them, it's just what they use to power smaller toys.
 
Eujangles said:
My guess is RC hobbyist, not ebike builder. I think most ebike builders have a pretty good idea they are messing around with some powerful stuff when their lipo batteries are launching them down that street at 50km/h. Some of the poor RC guys probably don't have the same respect for the batteries, as to them, it's just what they use to power smaller toys.
Click to expand...
And hence my continued suggestion to folks to look at what their battery was designed, built and tested for! Batteries for toys are very different from batteries for electric cars. Its the difference between low end and high end. Lots of folks opt for the initial lower costs of the former, not really factoring in other considerations, like the all important C-rate, longevity as in charge/discharge cycles, cell construction, etc. I opted for the high end A123 AMP20 cells after a FULL consideration of all factors and believe my long-term costs will be lower. :mrgreen:
 
arkmundi said:
And hence my continued suggest to folks to look at what their battery was designed, built and tested for! Batteries for toys are very different from batteries for electric cars. Its the difference between low end and high end. Lots of folks opt for the initial lower costs of the former, not really factoring in other considerations, like the all important C-rate, longevity as in charge/discharge cycles, cell construction, etc. I opted for the high end A123 AMP20 cells after a FULL consideration of all factors and believe my long-term costs will be lower. :mrgreen:
Click to expand...


I hear what you're saying. I went Lipo last year, and all in, it's cost me more than just buying a pre-config pack would have. Lured in by high discharge, small dimensions and light weight. I've never done anything dangerous with them, and always monitor when charging, but I have still in the last year:
-fried an iCharger (this one wasn't my fault at least)
-left my bike on overnight and somehow had it drain over 25v from my packs, completely ruining them (I have not tried recharging due to fear of explosions, I just ordered new ones)
-broke 2 battery medics
-bought 2 sets of alarms for my different battery configs

I recently bought a shrink wrap 48v 10ah LicoMn battery for a different project a friend and I are doing, and the thing is ridiculously small and light. Wish I had just got one of those to start with (c rating be damned! :wink: ), but I'm glad I've had the experience of using lipo.
 
if there was a BMS on the lipo pack then it would have shut off before over discharging. the same as with a regular lifepo4 pack. arkmundi and lucky tommy had the same thing happen to them when they built a pack and it drained to zero because it had no BMS and the controller was left on for a long time. this is so common yet people still would rather pay to buy a new pack than use a BMS to protect it.
 
Yeah it was a rookie mistake. I at least keep alarms on the packs now, so I'll have a rude awakening if it happens again. Weird thing is though, I had left it on overnight once before and only had 2 volts drained. I don't know why it was over 25v the next time.

Is there a specific BMS you recommend? I am currently running 4 x 4s 8000mah packs in series.
 
dnmun said:
if there was a BMS on the lipo pack then it would have shut off before over discharging. the same as with a regular lifepo4 pack. arkmundi and lucky tommy had the same thing happen to them when they built a pack and it drained to zero because it had no BMS and the controller was left on for a long time. this is so common yet people still would rather pay to buy a new pack than use a BMS to protect it.
Click to expand...
Opting as you suggest is a respectable choice - no qualms there. But so is going BMS free, though being in the other camp, you may not understand the choice. When my pack died because I had my ebike in the shop for rim replacement and had left the Watt's Up meter connected, it was one cell that got drained. Which I replaced and was good to go. Yea, there have been some moments in my journey, all occasions to learn more.

And yea, I now have a balance harness and Celllogs on, so will get an alarm if things are out of whack per the robust algorithm of the Celllogs.

As the adage goes - cooperation + tolerance = peace. :mrgreen:
 
for 16S there is a wide variety you can choose from:

http://www.bestekpower.com/592v16spcmbmspcbforli-ionli-polymerbatterypack/

the D100 will handle 16S lipo and is around $40. i am gonna order some of these BMSs within a few days if you are interested.
 
dnmun said:
for 16S there is a wide variety you can choose from:

http://www.bestekpower.com/592v16spcmbmspcbforli-ionli-polymerbatterypack/

the D100 will handle 16S lipo and is around $40. i am gonna order some of these BMSs within a few days if you are interested.
Click to expand...

Hi dnmun,

Sorry typo there: I'm using 3 x 4s packs, not 4. Are they only available in bulk orders? I'm also a little worried I'd be in over my head trying to set the packs up with this. I don't suppose there are dummy-user ones you can just plus the JST's into? :oops:
 
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