Lithium ion batteries for eboard or other options

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Sep 11, 2013
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58
Hey guys,
Thinking of using different batteries for my next board.
Have any of you had experience with other batteries then li-po?
Saw these that looked interesting
http://www.batterysupports.com/22v-252v-1218650-5800mah-6s2p-lithium-ion-liion-battery-pack-p-139.html
My questions:
1.any1 here done this? What is the outcome? What parts did you use?
2. What are my choices other then lipos - lipo4e? Li-ion? What are the ups and downs(battery life/charging/weight/safety)
3. Can these work with my 150A hobbyking or similar Esc? If not what esc does work with these?
4. Can my charger charge these? Accu6 type? If not what charger do i need?
Thanks
 
Looking at it, these are cylindrical lithium batteries. Too bad it doesn't tell what the chemistry of the battery is cause it makes a different if lthium polymer, lithium cobalt oxide, or lithium manganese oxide.

1) Its been done using cylindrical cells. Boosted board had on their blog about the batteris of their board. One of the pics showed green wraped cells. As of today I do not know if they still used cylindrical cells or flat packs. No, I do not have one of their boards. On the community side, some have made their own packs and solder or spot weld the ends with nickle tabs.

2) There are other battery chemistries such as the ones I have mentioned, but may require a BMS due to fire hazard. I have used LiFePO4. They were the hobbyking zippy flightmax. Couldn't tell what was happening as i rode my board becuase the esc would cut out after sometime. In genereal the nomial or normal voltage of LiFePO4 to put it layman's terms is 3.3V but can be discharged to 2.8. For every other lithium battery such as lipos, Lithium manganese oxide, or lithium cobalt oxide nomial voltage is 4.2 fully charged and 3.7 when fully discharged. No special charger is needed to charge LiFePO4 beside a good lipo charger with a LiFe setting avavilable. As you can see here, the voltage difference of lipos and life batteries are shown and is a reason why the rc market is using mostly lipos. LiFe, however, has the best advantage of fire related issues as this battery chemistry doesn't cause a visible fire if puntured or destroyed where lipos will.

The green cells I mentioned earlier, the only manufacuter I know to make those in that size Boosted showed are A123, but I cannot make the claim they are indeed A123 cells cuase the photo does not show the other side. A123 uses LiFePO4 as the chemistry in their batteries. Max discharge amperage is 70amp.

I have been looking for cylindrical lipo cells in the 26650 format but the max discharge amperage wasn't at the level required.


3) Can the batteries working with the esc you specified? Yes, if the motor was drawing 1amp or there was no resistance on the motor. Would I tell you to get them? No, the batteries specified a BMS which is good, but the "max discharge amperage is only 7 amps and that is no good.

A few weeks ago I finally understand why every Lipo pack on the market is "C" rated like 25C or 60C. Im currently taking my second semester of college-level physics. One of the lectures is about charges and the unit of a charge is Coulombs. Abbreviation for Coulombs is "C". Coulombs is also 1 amp x 1 second. I can't do the math to derive amps a second from coulombs, but physics says it is. If I am right, when a battery says 25C, it means the batery can dish out 25amps in 1 second. From that I should be able to find the roght battery for the amperage a motor draws.

4) IF you did get that pack and only IF. The built-in BMS specifed in the battery's specification mean you only have to apply electricity, but you find the correct voltage and amperage to charge the pack. So almost any RC charger will work.

For the most part, keep searching as there are better packs. As I have said before, i have been searching for cylindrical lipo battery at sufficient discharge amperage because of the properties of using cylindrical cells vs flat-packs for weight, dimension, capacity, and fire safety.
 
Thanks for the answer.
I have always thought the C rating had to do with how much Mah the Batt is, but i might have been wrong all those years.
As for the Bms - I think that's a non issue because they are cheap and small nowadays..
Lastly what interests me most is that i have seen 2 boards in this forum already using Li-ion batts (or at least i suspect).
The first board is the Bubblegum board:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=61479
And i can't find the second but i remember seeing an home made aluminium board with red cylinder batts inside. (maybe they were just lipos, but worth a look).

I wish one of these guys would enrich us with some info...
 
This is the second one with strange Batts
don't know what king though..
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=37230&start=75
 
1.any1 here done this? What is the outcome? What parts did you use?

You can - they are best used with a BMS and setting up a one plug charging solution.

2. What are my choices other then lipos - lipo4e? Li-ion? What are the ups and downs(battery life/charging/weight/safety)

Lipo's are your best bang for buck for highest discharge, lowest weight, etc. Li-ion comes in second. Lifepo4 is the newer chemistry which is still lacking as most lifepo4 packs are heavier, less discharge rate. IMO not as worth it.

3. Can these work with my 150A hobbyking or similar Esc? If not what esc does work with these?

Yes, almost can use any battery can work with any ESC depending on the ESC's max voltage rating. You just need your typical discharge wires pos/ground. Of course, you want to match that as well with the amp output that you need for your application. If you have two low of voltage and/or inadequate batteries that can produce the amperage that you need. It won't work well.

4. Can my charger charge these? Accu6 type? If not what charger do i need?

You can charge these with typical bulk chargers but then it doesn't get you far away from what we are currently doing now with Lipo charging.

Boosted, I believe still uses cylindrical cells.

Each type of battery has a set discharge rate which is listed as C.

IMO - I would not bother switching over to lithium ion unless you plan on running it with a BMS and having a simple one plug charging solution.

Lipo works fine for most of our applications.

However, if you plan on switching to lithium ion, BMS and a one plug charger. Expect to pay about $285-$350 for a pack. Just my 2 cents..

I should have a 29.6v (8S) 8.7ah with BMS and one plug charging solution shortly. Testing a few options out currently. Should have them available soon.
 
I am using 18650 for my mountain board and longboard, also used them for my goped esr 750.

Much better results compare to LIPO's....BTW, I am not using BMS...charged them exactly as lipo.
I have used them for over one year and I think they are the safest technology available at this time.
 
Thanks for the answers guys,
Silent - could you share more about your set up?
how many are you using and how are they connected?
can you maybe upload some pics?

in addition where did you purchase them? why are they better then lipos?
 
Here is my set up. Not pretty bot it works well. Hopefully I can make or buy somewhere a nice plastic case and make look right.
 

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Silenthunter said:
Here is my set up. Not pretty bot it works well. Hopefully I can make or buy somewhere a nice plastic case and make look right.

Cool build!
Which batteries are you using? I have been wanting to use 18650s on a build but its hard to resist lipos when they are so cheap compared to high discharge 18650s..

Also, whats your solution for balancing the cells? Saw one 6s balancing connector sticking out, are there any more?
 
From what I also noticed. Lipo's also don't typically last that long. Especially if your running a 8-10S setup and 8ah+. Your lipo packs will eventually cost $150-$200. If they only last for 8-10 months it sucks might as well purchase some 18650s.
 
Thanks, I have used couple of brands (Lg, Panasonic, Orbitec) and all worked very well. The only difference I have noticed is that panasonic cells (single cells)charge and discharge faster than other. The C rating is same or even higher than lipo's depending on the cells edition/year. I have used these cells for over 1 year on gopeds and longboards/mountainboards and so far no issues. You can lay more cells and you get more freedom on shape/size.

The cells are connected exact same way as lipo's cells. Charging is exact same process.

18650 cells price range varies from $5 to $9 per cell depending on the seller, sometimes you can get a great deal on new laptop cells/batteries from ebay. I am referring to 2012 or newer edition laptop batteries if no one bids for the action.
 
Silenthunter, I'm curious in seeing under the hood if it's not too difficult to get more pictures of the actual batteries. I too would really like to see some other options for batteries that are safer than lipo's. I know they're safe if taken care of and have a lot of positives to their use, but imo, there has to be a better solution. I'd say a higher price tag is fair if the weight and performance are comparable to lipo's, especially if the risk factor is lowered. Interested in seeing your developments, Torqueboards!

Also Silenthunter, for housing options take a look at drawer organizers. They come in lots of different sizes.

http://www.target.com/p/room-essentials-interlocking-drawer-organizer-set/-/A-14768524#prodSlot=medium_1_11&term=drawer+organizer
 
What is the chemnistry of those cells that makes them better than lipos? I saw some on sparkfun that seem to be LiPo as well, 18650 just referring to the size of 18mm diameter 65mm lenght.

As I understand, there is no specific 'lithium ion' battery but it is the bigger category in which LiPo and lifepo batteries and some others fall. I might have missed something tho.
 
Thanks for sharing your setup.
I still have a lot of question's about it.
1. where did you get the batteries (or where is a good place to buy them online) - what is the cost?
2. why do you use them without a BMS? how do you charge them ? (you said exactly like a lipo - but is there a balance plug?).
3. If i do use a BMS - could i charge them with just a power source (no balancer needed?)?
4. how do i setup these BMSs?
Thanks
 
1. where did you get the batteries (or where is a good place to buy them online) - what is the cost? -

Price range from $5-$9...battery Space, Amazon, ebay.....is it that hard to google it?


2. why do you use them without a BMS? how do you charge them ?

You will have to spot weld or solder balance leads. First positive cable (balance lead) goes to first positive head of the last cell in series. Lest say you have a 8S battery, so the rest 7 cables (black or negative cables) will connect to the negative size of the cells in order from 7th cell to the 1st cells. If you are still confused check connecting cells in series or parallel on Google (search - images)
I don't use BMS because the charger does all the balancing work and I use alarm volt meters to notify when the pack is close to 3V. I know how many miles I daily commute and after a while you will know exactly when to stop and charge before hitting that 3.0V limit.
Some people had issues with their BMS on the bike forum so it can go both ways. If you keep track of your daily commute you will realize that BMS is not needed...specifically for e board you save $$$, weight and space on your board.



3. If i do use a BMS - could i charge them with just a power source (no balancer needed?)?
4. how do i setup these BMSs?

Read on the forum...There is tons of information on BMS, charging etc.
 
1. where did you get the batteries (or where is a good place to buy them online) - what is the cost? -

Price range from $5-$9...battery Space, Amazon, ebay.....is it that hard to google it?


2. why do you use them without a BMS? how do you charge them ?

You will have to spot weld or solder balance leads. First positive cable (balance lead) goes to first positive head of the last cell in series. Lest say you have a 8S battery, so the rest 7 cables (black or negative cables) will connect to the negative size of the cells in order from 7th cell to the 1st cells. If you are still confused check connecting cells in series or parallel on Google (search - images)
I don't use BMS because the charger does all the balancing work and I use alarm volt meters to notify when the pack is close to 3V. I know how many miles I daily commute and after a while you will know exactly when to stop and charge before hitting that 3.0V limit.
Some people had issues with their BMS on the bike forum so it can go both ways. If you keep track of your daily commute you will realize that BMS is not needed...specifically for e board you save $$$, weight and space on your board.



3. If i do use a BMS - could i charge them with just a power source (no balancer needed?)?
4. how do i setup these BMSs?

Read on the forum...There is tons of information on BMS, charging etc.
 
This is the cell I use if anyone is interested in reading about them. http://detail.1688.com/offer/1187981858.html



UPDATEd with correct link

Major Technical Parameters
No. Item Standard Note
1 Standard Capacity 4500mAh 0.5C,( current value of 4500mA at 1C)
2 Capacity Range 4450~4650mAh 0.5C
3 Standard Voltage 3.6 V
4 Alternating Internal Resistance ≤30mΩ with PTC
5
Charge
Conditions
Cut-off
Voltage
4.2±0.05V constant current charge to 4.2V at 0.5C,
constant voltage charge to stop until 0.01C
mA
Cut-off
Current
0.01C
6 Discharge Cut-off Voltage 2.75V
7 Cycle Characteristic 500 times
100% DOD, the residual capacity is no less
than 70% of rated capacity at 1C rate.
8
Max. Continuous Discharge
Current
13A
9 Pulse Discharge Current 15A, 5s
10 Working Temperature
Charge:0°C~55°C
Discharge:-20°C~60°C
11 Storage Temperature -20°C ~ 45°C
12 Battery Weight 92 g (Approx.)
 
Wow, 65 cent a piece? They say 2A max continous discharge, how does that work on your boards?
 
So to make a 6s10ah pack, I would need 12x5ah cells, arranged into 2x6s5ah connected in parallel?
 
voodoojar said:
This is the cell I use if anyone is interested in reading about them. http://detail.1688.com/offer/1187981858.html

3 Standard Voltage 3.6 V
Max. Continuous Discharge Current 13A

correct me if I am wrong,
in 7s2p, those batteries would potentially supply up to 2 x 13 x 7 x 3.6 = 655Watts
 
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