Local idiot tries to build a tadpole

[BionicOnion]

13ga is 2.34mm.

When you use spokes that are too thick, you reduce the load that the wheel will carry reliably, and you get an assortment of problems that could be avoided by using thinner spokes.

Gotcha. So when it comes time for the nicer set of wheels, be sure to look for thinner gauge. The second set will be likely 36h, which obviously I'll be getting another set of hubs and whatnot. This particular set of rims are off a cheap kids bike if I'm honest, single wall steel. So I mean... for now they'll work. At most ill probably keep them for a slushy weather wheel since I won't be going on any longer rides or care as much. These sets were off amazon at like 8$/set and you were right. I misread they are 2.2 supposedly. Learning as i go.

 

[The Toecutter]

Gotcha. So when it comes time for the nicer set of wheels, be sure to look for thinner gauge. The second set will be likely 36h, which obviously I'll be getting another set of hubs and whatnot. This particular set of rims are off a cheap kids bike if I'm honest, single wall steel. So I mean... for now they'll work. At most ill probably keep them for a slushy weather wheel since I won't be going on any longer rides or care as much. These sets were off amazon at like 8$/set and you were right. I misread they are 2.2 supposedly. Learning as i go.

If you use thicker/heavier DOT rims, you can use thicker spokes while strengthening the wheel, to a point. Weight goes up significantly though. Worth the tradeoff, IMO. Necessary if you want a wheel worthy of sustained highway-speed use, but then you have to look at frame/suspension/brake/axle upgrades too.

 

[BionicOnion]

Attempt #....8 i think. Redid everything, measurements seemed all good. Separated spokes and found again somehow I screwed a few up so I sorted both packs, left long, right shorter. Went through per lacing instructions...and it was wrong. All the inners on the non brake side were rattling. Looked at it and thought... what if I had my spokes wrong and somehow it still had a cross above the valve.... room for the air chuck, but a cross. I undid the non brake side and left brake side together, and literally shifted every spoke 1 hole to the left and redid the nipples... now all spokes near same tension or very very close. A little runout which I think I can get out by truing. And spoke tensions..... man I hope I got it right this time

 

[BionicOnion]

Long time later.... opted to change up frame layout probably for the better. I realize my way of going about this isnt normal for most..but its what I got. I have 3 possible layouts of the main frame. Pictures are shown... I can use a single main beam, or twins either closer or farther apart. Im not as concerned with weight as others may be...I dont want it to be a tank, however its gonna be heavier for sure. The steel beams are 2 5/16 square. From rear axle mount to the front of those beams is 72". I dont forsee going anything faster than 50 is im honest about this. Its a longer frame, the back 16ish inches from the pivot forward are unusable space because of the engine im also putting in (see my weight concerns), the battery packs I have are about 30lbs each and have 2 so far. I was hoping for a small cargo/maybe passenger spot behind me if it could all fit. This would mean the passenger would probably be sitting higher than me, but not on top of the engine.
Im thinking of the closer option of the twin beams might be the best with all going into this, however there are smarter people than me here who I hope can shed some wisdom my way

 

[BionicOnion]

Hoping the pictures actually upload here. Think.im gonna go twin frame, shallow space. Each beam is 10lbs... worth the extra strength to me

 

[offGridDownUnder]

The taper on your rear wheel mount enforces a permanent limit on tire size. Is there any chance you'd want to use a wider tire? I chose my frame (Greenspeed Magnum Big Wheel) as it permitted a 4" tire (with caveats).

 

[BionicOnion]

I

The taper on your rear wheel mount enforces a permanent limit on tire size. Is there any chance you'd want to use a wider tire? I chose my frame (Greenspeed Magnum Big Wheel) as it permitted a 4" tire (with caveats).

Do have some concerns about this. I am not opposed to building a wider capable swingarm in the future. That one comfortably sits a full 3 inch wide 27.5 tire. Maybe worth looking into options later on

 

[Papa]

What's the end game here? Road... off-road? Cargo? Urban,.. remote? Apparently you have a welder... Yes? And what is the $ limit?

 

[BionicOnion]

What's the end game here? Road... off-road? Cargo? Urban,.. remote? Apparently you have a welder... Yes? And what is the $ limit?

Well...I have large batteries and an engine im putting on it... basically around town/country side explorer. Not needing 70mph...but wouldn't mind 50 on the top end. Peddling is more of a suggestion by the time the weights all added up I assume. So far I have 60lbs in the battery and another 70ish for the engine, which may go direct drive or just be for power generation depending.

That said..yes I have a welder, plan on a shell of sorts for year round transport to shy away from the car when not needed. I guess id like to go on rides by myself or maybe with one of my sons as a passenger if possible and not fear fuel prices lol

 

[The Toecutter]

Well...I have large batteries and an engine im putting on it... basically around town/country side explorer. Not needing 70mph...but wouldn't mind 50 on the top end. Peddling is more of a suggestion by the time the weights all added up I assume. So far I have 60lbs in the battery and another 70ish for the engine, which may go direct drive or just be for power generation depending.

That said..yes I have a welder, plan on a shell of sorts for year round transport to shy away from the car when not needed. I guess id like to go on rides by myself or maybe with one of my sons as a passenger if possible and not fear fuel prices lol

50 mph is very easy to achieve, IMO. My first e-trike build did 45-50 mph depending upon state of charge. It was also surprisingly stable at speed with just front suspension and bicycle tires, but the Avid BB7 cable-pulled front brakes I started with were not up to the task unless I had just recently adjusted them before that ride. I had to upgrade to hydraulic brakes in order to stop consistently. And the bicycle tires, Schwalbe Marathon Greengaurd 20x1.5" front and Schwalbe Marathon Plus Tour 26x1.5" rear, also were not adequate for braking from those speeds either, the wheels were not adequate for the forces the road subjected them to with potholes, and thus I had to upgrade to Mitas MC2 16x2.25" on all three wheels after going to 16" DOT rims.

If you want to get good range on a small battery, build an aerodynamic fairing around it. Even if it's a heavy trike at 200 lbs with lossy DOT tires, you could easily make it so efficient that you cruise 50 mph on < 2 kW on flat ground. A single Leafbike 1500W 3T motor laced into the rear wheel is perfectly adequate for that and you'll be able to accelerate like a car with about 6-10 kW peak and ~150-200A phase current from that one motor.

What kind of engine are you putting in it? With a well-designed body, 300+ miles per gallon of liquid fuel @ 50 mph is not out of the realm of possibility on long trips.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

Don't mind me. I'm just happy to hear from someone that appears to want what I want - transportation.

Not to contradict @The Toecutter at all, but a remark - if you already have bicycle wheels for this, you can certainly try it out at lower speeds before investing in wheels to manage 50+ mph. Keep the fabrication momentum going. Perhaps throw-away mounts for bicycle wheels that could be upgraded to motorcycle wheel mounts preserving the rest of the frame while resulting in the same axle positions to keep the steering the same?

My first trike revision (stoke monkey motor behind the seat) was done by my fabricator as a proof of concept. Success with that gave me heart about converting to a Gates belt, then redesigning the motor cradle (after my fabricator's design failed - hey, no one did this before).

Now, I'm working through integrating torque sensing and perhaps a change to the battery mounting.

Beyond that I'm heading towards what you mention above in many ways, but I'll be keeping mine in the bicycle speed range for legal and energy budget and $$ reasons. My design envelope departs from yours in another way apart from top speed - I want off-road capability within limits. I don't want to try for air time with a tadpole.

Having seen the ELF vehicle, I'm charmed about the idea of something like you describe. I have two solar panels that closely match the footprint of my trike and I'm thinking of mounting them, then designing weather protection off that. On the flats, with a sunny day, in bicycle speed ranges, I could probably ride without draining the battery at all.

 

[The Toecutter]

My quad has bicycle grade wheels/tires on it right now and I have taken it to 70 mph thus far, uphill(I don't know what it will actually do yet). They are not adequate for the task, but they didn't fail on me, either. I have had to re-true the rear wheels already. Planning to have DOT grade parts on it again soon.

A good set of Alex or Velocity USA double-walled aluminum bicycle rims with Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires, I'd trust for 35 mph cruising speeds on bad roads using the bike as a daily commuter for years without any trouble. I've done it before with them for thousands of miles at a time between repairs or tire/tube changeouts. Those Alex or Velocity USA rims aren't DOT compliant, but their strength to weight ratio far exceeds any DOT rim I've tried. In the case of the Velocity USA rims, I put over 40,000 miles on them before they cracked around the spoke nipples and I had to replace them. Aluminum does fatigue, and that's what sucks about it.

If your vehicle is light enough, you might be able to get away with a combination of 20" bicycle rims of sufficient strength, with 16" DOT tires shoehorned onto them, even at 50 mph cruising speeds. Lace them bicycle rims with 13ga or 14ga spokes for best possible strength, and check them frequently.

 

[BionicOnion]

My quad has bicycle grade wheels/tires on it right now and I have taken it to 70 mph thus far, uphill(I don't know what it will actually do yet). They are not adequate for the task, but they didn't fail on me, either. I have had to re-true the rear wheels already. Planning to have DOT grade parts on it again soon.

A good set of Alex or Velocity USA double-walled aluminum bicycle rims with Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires, I'd trust for 35 mph cruising speeds on bad roads using the bike as a daily commuter for years without any trouble. I've done it before with them for thousands of miles at a time between repairs or tire/tube changeouts. Those Alex or Velocity USA rims aren't DOT compliant, but their strength to weight ratio far exceeds any DOT rim I've tried. In the case of the Velocity USA rims, I put over 40,000 miles on them before they cracked around the spoke nipples and I had to replace them. Aluminum does fatigue, and that's what sucks about it.

If your vehicle is light enough, you might be able to get away with a combination of 20" bicycle rims of sufficient strength, with 16" DOT tires shoehorned onto them, even at 50 mph cruising speeds. Lace them bicycle rims with 13ga or 14ga spokes for best possible strength, and check them frequently.

Knowing your build thread i appreciate the first hand info. I was thinking either double wall aluminum bike wheels or pit bike wheels if im honest, just because of the pit bike brakes I would hope would be more durable. I was leaning heavily on the 20 inch bike size for dot tires as well. But the pitbike wheels seem also much easier to source for anything 2.5-3+ tire width, at least price wise.

Weight wise im 220lbs, currently 60lbs of batteries, and when the engines mounted its another 70. So just my nonsense is 350ish let alone frame weight and whatnot. I had considered schwalbe pickup tires, as they seem to meet all considerations, but at that point is there any reason outside of initial cost to not go pit bike/dot tires?

 

[BionicOnion]

Update. Coming along... just sort of winging it to be honest on some of this frame so far. Will be a little more...intentional when it comes to the front setup. This is just to at least get it running. Rear tire is a 20" which is right where im planning on keeping it and front beam axle is at 10" to center. Beam is 28" end to end then knuckles and tires out of that at this width. If I need to close it up a bit oe widen it, im up for suggestions and real work experience. Wheel base is 60" from rear axle to front axle. Have bottom bracket to yet install and then sort out steering and brakes.

Current frame weight is still sub 30lbs.... so i think that seems reasonable so far

 

[The Toecutter]

I'm curious to see what you do for a seat, your pedal boom, and your steering. I'd love to do a heavier-duty build than what I have and yours is definitely going in that direction.

Given looming resource scarcity, electric microcars are going to soon be among the only affordable means of long-distance transport possible to the person of median wealth, and in most of the USA, you can hide one inside of an ebike or emoto and get away with it, as long as it's pedalable and you don't do anything stupid with it. Unfortunately to the person of modest means, there exist none on the market here.

If I had both the money and free time, I'd be trying to design something for mass production that was alo capable of sustaining freeway speeds and be ahead of that curve. But I'm stuck spending the majority of my waking hours working a job that is relatively menial compared to my capabilities just like most other people with good ideas that will never see the light of day, and am far from independently wealthy enough to even seriously consider building these for a living, because economy of scale is absolutely necessary to make these things affordable to the average person. If Henry Ford had to exist in our current regulatory environment, we probably never would have had affordable mass produced automobiles to begin with.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

that was alo capable of sustaining freeway speeds

Intending no antagonism, actually asking...

Why? In a world with nothing but micro-cars, and possibly horses, and people powered bicycles - why freeway speeds? What leads to that criterion?

Why not faster? I can think of physics reasons not to consider faster, but I'm just asking why you select freeway speeds as the goal in a world without our current transport options. You may have thought of something I have not, I'd like to hear.

 

[The Toecutter]

Why not faster? I can think of physics reasons not to consider faster, but I'm just asking why you select freeway speeds as the goal in a world without our current transport options. You may have thought of something I have not, I'd like to hear.

We're not in that future world yet. In order to be used today, the vehicle has to be able to use existing infrastructure while mixing with existing traffic. In order for people to know the option exists in the future, a lesser number of those people need for it to exist today so they can be aware of it as an option when the previously conventional options become too expensive. If such an option has already existed for years and there is some public awareness of it, people will talk about it and demand for the new type of vehicle will increase.

Physics aren't really going to prevent faster, either, in the case of making it suitable for the German Autobahn. It will require a lot more engineering effort in order to make it safe for the the operator to use to its limits. A vehicle that can hold 120 mph with a single occupant using around 8 horsepower on flat ground is very doable. A 5 kWh battery would give it a 100 mile range at that speed, and given the direction battery technology is going, in the near future that could be 20 lb battery inside of a 150-200 lb single-person vehicle.

 

[BionicOnion]

Update...minor anyways
Began construction of the controller arms..... yes I know its overbuilt

limited time constraints keep more focus going. I got this one tacked up except the outboard side, and a second is getting real close to this same point. Sure its not the best choice of materials...but its what I had

 

[BionicOnion]

Small update.
Got the 4 control arms all tacked together and put on their mounting plate to check how its going to look. Note, no bushings.present yet or butter uprights...but im feeling pretty good about this

 

[BionicOnion]

Small update, idiot keeps at it.

Im frugal to the point its sad.... (read low budget). Need bushings.... nothing off the shelf is a direct fit and cheap. Custom made..not horrible per piece.... at 6ish.... but still too rich for my blood....



....


Enter redneck engineering...


A few minutes with some tools.... and there we go. "Custom" nylon bushings, need pressed into big tube, light drag on inner tube.... and .60 cent each for a 1.25 inch bushing lol....




Im sorry....I did warn you I was an idiot

 

[BionicOnion]

Found some time today to do some work. So I welded up the arms and made the outter pivot points. Still needs some tightening up before I weld on the upright mounts to the suspension arms. I know those welds arent the greatest, my fitment wasnt the best to be honest. Always feel like rushing. But heat zone looks good and probably going to do a few gusset as im paranoid. Feel free to chime in on suggestions or whatever