Mid-drive with troque sensor

[Diva]

Hi guys!

I'm riding now an ebike with a bosch performance mid drive and I'm really loving it. Smooth assistance, reliable, fast (I've a chip to unlock the max speed of 25 kph) and so on. The only bad thing is that I commute to my work that is 16 km (10 miles) away from home and that I need to reload my battery there, otherwise I couldn't do the way back. I puch really hard, with an average speed of 32 kph (20mph), so the range seems normal (I'm able to ride 20 km+ before the 400 Wh are al gone). I'm worrying about the fact that my battery should not live that long with the bad traitment I'm giving it. And actually my job is to rebuild ebike batteries, and I've learned that it is sometimes very hard to repair those from big brands like bosch or panasonic (the worst being yamaha).

That's why I'd like to build my own bike, with the same pros that the bosch system without the cons. I'm looking for a reliable mid drive system WITH TORQUE SENSOR, kind of 500watt range. I've seen the TSDZ2 but it seems to be a "600 km and it's gone" stuff. For the rest, I haven't found anything but complete ebikes with bosch or yamaha systems...
The best thing should be to put a torque sensor on a cyclone kit (or lightning rods, but I don't need very high power), but it seems to me to be impossible. Does somebody have an idea?

Thanks

 

[crossbreak]

Get a cyclone middrive, a CA V3 and a X-Cell RT Bottom bracket. put it all together. Voilà, a bike with lots of power and torque control through your legs...no throttle needed and 100% street legal if you program the CA+Controller in the right way. I would even go for KBSX controller, it has good torque mode control if your settings are ok. The settings can be found here on page2: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=67825

cyclone kit: https://lunacycle.com/cyclone-mid-drive-3000-watt-planetary-kit/
CA V3 http://www.ebike-solutions.com/en/shop/electronic-accessories/cadence-sensors/ncte-version-rt-square-taper-bottom-bracket.html
Thun XCell Bottom bracket http://www.ebike-solutions.com/de/ncte-4-kant-tretlager.html

 

[crossbreak]

just saw that the Bottom Bracket might be a bit short when using it with the cyclone kit. something you may have to try out. i think there is a 136mm or 138mm version of the TorqueSensingBottomBracket

reliability of the cyclone kit isnt the best if used with lots of current. Some people push 60A into this tiny motor. I guess it would be bulletproof if you do only 30A. Your chain will wear a lot, you may have to change it every 1-2tkm. But that is normal for such middrives. Personally i use 8 speed cassettes +chains since they are dirt cheap (~10 bucks/cassete and 5 bucks/chain) and have a good range (11...32t). Combined with as ESP gripshift and SRAM ESP derailleur like the X4 it is the fastest and most reliable derailleur system i ever rode.

today i would not buy an X4 anymore as it has no clutch...a GX is also affordable and more up-to-date. SRAM says that it is made for 10speed stuff but i am 99% sure it will work with 8speed, too. I use a Zee 10x derailleur ATM with 8x chan..works flawlessly. https://r2-bike.com/SRAM-GX-Schaltwerk-Black-2x10-fach-Type-21-langer-Kaefig?gclid=CLaGof7PgNQCFeoW0wodDKYDqg

OK i hope i could get your brain working...there are lots of possibilities as you see, just think about it and share your ideas, then we might be able to tell you if this can work out as you intend to

 

[crossbreak]

here is a manual for connecting CA V3 and XCell RT. German isnt so far from flemsh i hope
http://www.ebike-solutions.com/media/files_public/kmdfigvtmwqo/Montageanleitung%20NCTE%20mit%20Cycle%20Analyst%203.1%20V1.2.pdf

In the normal manual there is also a part about the XCell torque sensor http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/cycle-analyst-3.html

nice topic BTW, im keen to see how you do progress. *subscribed*

 

[crossbreak]

if it does not have to be a middrive, you can forget about Bottom Braket length and clearance issues (and some more DIY-middrive problems...this can be annoying). Building a DIY middrive is most challenging for a beginner even if you buy a Kit. I recommend beginners to go for a rear wheel motor. A Bafang CST motor is a good choice. Make sure it is the 36V/20" version, otherwise it will be very slow http://www.ebike-solutions.com/de/shop/motoren/motoren-bis-250w/bafang-cst-hinterradmotor-36v-250w-mit-kassettenaufnahme-fuer-20-zoll-schwarz.html?gclid=CKm60ezjgNQCFVAQ0wodtnYLTg They say it is 250W but it works just fine with 25A at 48V...you can also set it to 20A in controller software if you want the gears to last 10 000km+.

A EX729 26" (36holes !!! NOT 32!!) rim is very good combined with Heidenau NR-7 2.25-22 tires and a normal 2.5-26 continental AV-40mm inner tube plus schwalbe rim tape. Ebike Solutions will even lace it into a rim of your choice. Just order a rim online and send it straight to them (no detour of parcels over your private address to save on shipping cost...dont forget to state a reference so they know it is yours). They will calc spoke lengths etc for you and lace it so it is centered well.

combined with a 25A/48V Kelly KBSX controller the CST-Motor has good performance (~40kph) and is quite lightweight and can climb hills with 10%+ elevation easily http://kellycontroller.com/kbs48051x25a24-48v-mini-brushless-dc-controller-p-503.html?osCsid=p6243coek9u9venossd6c0ga83 and buy a USB/RS232 cable for easy programming/ setting controller parameters http://www.ebay.de/itm/USB-to-RS232-Stecker-COM-Port-PDA-9Pin-DB9-Serial-converter-Adapter-Cable-Kabel-/322367672192?hash=item4b0e9c4f80:g:iNQAAOSwBLlVPf7I . You need a normal crimping tool for connecting hall sensors and a special one to crimp the CA-V3-DP connector. I recommend to paint the controller in frame color...looks much better

I recommend a 13s/7p battery (48V/30A 1000Wh nominal) with Samsung 35e cells and BMS. those packs even fit into some frames.

A HLG240H-54A can be used as fanless and waterproof charger that fits into your saddlebag https://www.elpro.org/gb/240-w-ip65-adjustable/36577-hlg-240h-54a.html

Connect controller and battery with XT90s connectors to have a anti-spark plug that works out of the box and last at least some years https://www.ebay.de/p/?iid=322305596404&&&chn=ps. Normal connectors without antispark wear quickly. For charging a XT60 connector is fine...if you always plug in the chargers wallplug first, there is no need for antispark connectors here.

The wiring can be done using 10-AWG Turnigy silicon cable http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=silicon+cable+AWG10&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xsilicon+cable+10AWG.TRS0&_nkw=silicon+cable+10AWG&_sacat=0
and silicon shrink 1:1.7 stube with ~10mm diameter (recalc yourself please) http://www.ebay.com/itm/1MM-20MM-Flexible-Soft-SILICONE-1-7-1-Heat-Shrink-Tubing-1Meter-A-lot-of-size-/322512675628?var=&hash=item4b1740e32c:m:mj2GniW9Wq-z2sGZyY9pRFA

use JST connectors and get a crimp tool for controller connectors (CA-V3-DP connector, 7 poles JST SM) http://www.ebike-solutions.com/de/shop/elektronikzubehoer/crimpzangen/crimpzange-fuer-jst-steckverbindungen.html or just ask Ebike solution to crimp for you, they do it cheap. Maybe you dont even need to crimp anything by ourself...it should all be plug and play for thetorque sensor...but you need to crimp for KBSX-controller connectors. Be aware the JST-SM connectors are not waterproof. Some 20mm 4:1 shrink tube + universal grease helps to keep water out https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Dual-Wall-Adhesive-Lined-Heat-Shrink-Tubing-Sleeving-4ft/32618070208.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.155.TLEFPv&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_2_10152_10065_10151_10068_5010017_10136_10157_10137_10060_10138_10155_10062_10156_437_10154_10056_10055_10054_10059_303_100031_10099_10103_10102_10101_10096_10147_10052_10053_10050_10107_10142_10051_5190018_10084_10083_10080_10082_10081_10177_10110_519_10111_10112_10113_10114_10180_10183_10182_10185_10184_10032_10078_10079_10077_10073_10186_10123_142,searchweb201603_4,ppcSwitch_5&btsid=04d175e5-5680-4fa5-80ad-5c581f45bb75&algo_expid=218ba967-fef1-4168-899f-f3e8a4b817c3-20&algo_pvid=218ba967-fef1-4168-899f-f3e8a4b817c3


for the headlights i recommend using a converter with 24...72V range. the LM2596HV isnt reliable at 48V. You can use either 6V if you use a bicycle headlight and a small DCD converter http://www.ebay.de/itm/192130689537?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT, but I recommend a 12V one combined with a Highsider Sattilite LowBeam Headslight https://www.louis.eu/artikel/highsider-satellite-led-low-beam-headlight/10034290 with 12V DCDC converter https://de.aliexpress.com/item/Dc-24v-36v-48v-60v-15v-72v-to-12V-2A-24W-DC-DC-Converter-Step-Down/32729343241.html?spm=2114.13010608.0.0.mP4lPX

and you will need a 80W+ soldering iron for soldering the XT90S plugs. If you have a good electronic store around the corner, the might do it for you for little money, too

 

[Diva]

Hi, and thanks for the replys

(btw, I'm from the French speaking part of the country, but I speak Dutch too. Unfortnately no German, even if I'm living at less than 30 km from Aachen. But I can read it quite easily )

I want a mid drive I don't like it if it's too easy There are many very steep hills in my area, and I sometimes tow a trailer so I want to be able to use gears.

Effectively, the big matter is the BB. I think that I'll first try to find a bike (I've a full suspended Lapierre frame in view), then see the place left for the motor, type of BB I need etc. I'm not for a cyclone because of the planetary gear reduction. I prefer the good old chains and belts from the gng kit. As I sould stay round 500-700W, I think it will be oversised and shoud be quite reliable. This kind of power is more than enough: I also own an electric moped, but never use it because I prefer my ebike

 

[crossbreak]

ok then go for the LR Kit. The other components (controller, CA V3, cable stuff etc) i suggested are still of value for you though. Keep in mind you need some extra threads on BB cubs for fastening the middrive on the frame. So you should look for a frame with 68mm BB width, otherwise you may run into big problems there.

Anyways keep us up, i reallly enjoy your project

 

[Diva]

Some updates:

I changed my mind. The LR kit (or gng) would have been way too heavy for the range of power I'm aiming. So I ordered a mini-cyclone at Lunacycle. I've been hesitating a while to order their "Luna special edition" wich should be 50% quieter, but they don't tell what they do on it (better bearings? or just oil in the gearbox... I'm also able to do that ). So I ordered a normal kit and I'll transform it like an AFT. It will be loud, but actually the bosch drive isn't that quiet... I got it last week, I'll try to make pictures of the transformations.
I also ordered a cycle analyst and a THUN torque sensor BB. It's my worst problem until now: the bb delivered with the cyclone is 152mm wide. I thought the "mini" cyclone would be a little more "mini" :lol: There is some space left, but not that much. I should have found a bracket that would have been 145 mm wide at minimum. The widest I've been able to find is 136 mm. Should someone have an idea of how I could expand it of some mm at each end?

I'm also searching for a good quality downtube battery case where i could get 70 x 18650's in. I've been reading a post of someone speaking about that but I'm not able to find it anymore. Any idea?

Thanks

 

[crossbreak]

haha, bosch is loud?!? You have no idea how loud the cyclone is anyway its fun

13s7p 18650 rack case https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=85501&p=1250256#p1250256

guess you wont find a case for more then 60 cells that is made for the trangle. The mentioned 13s7p case fits into some frame triangles actually. you just have to make your own mount. The cyclone turns very fast because of its high kV. It runs fine with 7s, so you could also make a 7s13p (24V nominal) battery and run it with some more amps. But at the end of the day this doesnt matter so much if you buy a controller with TRUE torque throttle...you can also use a 48V battery with good efficiency and smooth control. Which controller do you aim for?

Edit: The pics look like a KBSX or KLS https://lunacycle.com/mini-cyclone-kit/. Make sure you get the older KBSX model as the new KLS lacks of torque throttle and thus wont work as indended. I heard from a Kelly technician that they want to add that next year, after they got their ISO9001 certification (which seems like they have it now)

 

[Diva]

I find that my "unlimited" bosch performance is quiet loud at full power if I compare it to my father's bosch classic. I know the cyclone will be louder, but actually I like the noise my bosch makes when I'm accelerating and shifting

I ordered the 60A Kelly controler (did I mentioned I wanted it to be reliable? ). I will use a CA3 wich is made for torque management, so the (real) torque sensor goes to the CA that throttle the controler.

For the battery that's why I was thinking about. I'll buy one of those: Battery case . And then see how much cells I'm able to put in it. I already received one in the same kind at work but for 52 cells and there was some space left for the bms. Without the battery holder, I'm sure I can get 70 cells in it, that would make 10s7p. Far enough for the 800 Wh I'm aiming...

Still have that problem of BB, I've an idea, I'll explain it if it works :wink:

 

[Animalector]

Get a cyclone middrive, a CA V3 and a X-Cell RT Bottom bracket. put it all together. Voilà

So, with a 68mm bottom bracket shell, and a 1680W cyclone kit arriving today, what Thun sensor do I need? 116mm, 120mm, 128mm?

Also, what about the ISIS torque sensing bottom bracket:
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/torque-sensors/isis-128.html

Or the cheaper 128mm TDCM:
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/torque-sensors/tdcm-128.html

The TDCM says chain tension only, so I am trying to get my head around the implications for mid-drive with freewheeling drive sprocket.. The Left-side sensing Thun would be fine though... but for the same price, why not choose the ISIS..

Some thoughts before I spend "another" $600ish australian dollars.

Andy

 

[Diva]

The problem is that they are both too short... To let enough space for the motor, you need at least a 145mm wide BB. And it doesn't exist. I bought a 136mm (not avalaible at ebike.ca anymore, but I manage to find it in a german webshop), and I'll try to extand it of 5 mm or more at both ends... So there is no "plug and play" solution at the moment.

 

[Animalector]

What's tangent Dave doing with his ascent mid drive torque sensor setup? There obviously is a solution.. just have to define what it is...

 

[Diva]

Maybe the ascent is narrower than the cyclone...

 

[Animalector]

Wouldn't the issue only be with the width of the freewheel and primary drive sprocket, doesnt it really matter what's happening on the non drive side?. Anyways I'm guess I'll find out. My cyclone comes tomorrow with luck.

I would love to have torque sensing control. So I'll be looking into it some more soon

 

[Diva]

I'll receive the 136mm Thun torque sensor in a couple of days, then I'll see the space left on both sides. On the non drive side, you have the motor. You'll be able see tomorrow

 

[Animalector]

Yeah. I see...

But with one of those fancy offset crank arms we should be able to shave off a good 20mm at a guess so I'd still think the 126mm would be possible

 

[Alex07]

. Diva So I ordered a normal kit and I'll transform it like an AFT.

So will you get the ceramic bearings and hardened gears from AFT ? will you also use their big cooling fins ? as i heard these motors overheat.

Also has anyone found a 136/138mm ISIS type torque sense bottom bracket as the NCTE one is square taper and weak ?