Mineral oil Prevents Lipo Fire & Explosion! tested by Steveo

[steveo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PdLzYufSqw&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0IJw_ZoEfA&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-u4wl6yfno
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtsgOJw612w


Yes it does work!!

-steveo

 

[Dee Jay]

no eye protection? gloves? inhaling toxic fumes?

imagine if the cell did explode, that glass jar would've been shrapnel that you'd be picking out of your eyes and faces.

I suggest leaving the camera up close and standing way the hell back

J

 

[steveo]

i did trust me

my neighbor doesn't listen .. don't ask lol..

 

[Doctorbass]

Steveo,

This is a very brilliant idea about the use of Mineral oil!..

Your video are credible but you should add more description on the test conditions.. such as current used, outdoor temp, using a thermometer to show the temp increase.. etc

if we just dont consider the added weight and the mess created by the mineral oil on a battery container, i think it really worth.. and i just wonder if the ev compagny would noit be interested to or that already though about something similar?

Doc

 

[jondoh]

i don't understand, why does mineral oil work? how does it work? won't it short out the connections after time?

 

[Patriot]

I think I would have used a plastic pop bottle or something.

What I'm impressed with, is the differance betwen using oil, and not using oil.

I watched the first three videos, and was wondering what the big deal was.

Then, I watched the last one....

 

[Drunkskunk]

Nice Work!

I wonder if water would be enough to get the same effect?
And also what the minimum volum of oil would be needed?
At the very least, this could lead to a safe way of charging. plop them in a bath of mineral oil and walk away.

I have some 8 amp cells I may try this weekend. No video camera though.

 

[liveforphysics]

Your video gave me an idea.

I filled a coffie can with Argon (I have a TIG welder, and it's my inert gas of choice).

I set a lipo cell in the can and stuck a the plastic lid on the can with a dime sized hole in it.

Sacrificed a cell by hooking it up to the welder's output. It vented in a fury, and the can got pretty warm, but no flames.

Tried one sitting on the welding table in normal air, it had some impressive flames.

Argon is heavier than air, and tends to stay in containers much like a liquid does.

Argon doesn't leave a nasty and potentially dangerous coating on your batteries.

 

[liveforphysics]

However, it's all pretty silly.

Just take some heavy gauge stainless steel mesh, make a box with it. Line the box with a 1/2" of nomex pad/cloth. Blow up all the batteries you want in it, and nothing will happen except a terrible smell.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

If you look inside the Thundersky rigid plastic box packs, you'll find that they are just a bunch of paralleled pouch cells with the plastic box part-filled with what looks rather like oil. I presume this is done for the same reason, plus, maybe, to provide some even pressure on the outside of the cells to restrict puffing.

Jeremy

 

[swbluto]

I wonder why it hasn't been mentioned yet, but perhaps I'm just special. :lol: Special enough to have missed it, I guess?

I suspect the reason why it won't blow is because oil is not conductive(preventing further excessive current) and there's also little oxygen available to the cell when submersed in oil, which robs it of one of the necessary ingredients of any conflagration, including explosions.

I suspect water would initially work as it's not really that conductive, but as soon as the electrolyte mixes with the water as the cell bursts, it would make it increasingly conductive which would basically short the cell and further aggravate it. But, as long as no oxygen is available, I don't believe you would see flames or any sudden bursting. The trick is, however, to make sure the cell stays under water as I know water's pretty dense.

 

[liveforphysics]

Actually, Lithium metal reacts violently with water. So violently that it's about to break the covalent bond and liberate hydrogen and exothermic enough to light it given adequate quantity and rate.

There aren't oxidizers inside the battery, it has to get that from the air around it if I wants to have combustion occur. If it doesn't have Oxygen around it, it can't burn.

It's not about what it does electrically do it. The areas still laminated will still pass electrons whether other delaminated places have oil between them or not, and the delaminated places wouldn't be conducting any electricity anyways.

 

[swbluto]

Actually, Lithium metal reacts violently with water. So violently that it's about to break the covalent bond and liberate hydrogen and exothermic enough to light it given adequate quantity and rate.

But there isn't free lithium inside the cell, is there? I thought it was bonded with other materials, like cobalt as in LiCoO2. Or if there is free lithium, it's not a significant amount to create a noticeable reaction. But I can't say I know all there is to the internals of a lithium cell. I just have a hard time believing there'd be free-floating lithium ions given how readily they'd bond to... anything given their one lonely valence electron.

But, yes, you reminded me that the... oh, what's their name - the first elementary table columned elements(?) - react violently with water. Well, this is waiting for experimental results. Too bad you don't know have a video camera, drunkSkunk!(Does your digital camera come with video-capture capabilities?) The explosion would be fun to watch! :lol:

The areas still laminated will still pass electrons whether other delaminated places have oil between them or not, and the delaminated places wouldn't be conducting any electricity anyways.

What do you mean by "areas still laminated"? It doesn't appear that any rupture of the cell would immediately contain any electrical path between the anode and cathode outside of whatever circuit is causing the lithium to pass too much current in the first place. If, however, it was suffering from over-discharging and the electrolyte was sufficiently mixed with the water(and assuming there was a high enough electrolyte/water ratio), I can imagine that it would provide another conductive pathway to aggravate excess current. But by the time that happened, the lipo would probably already have "blown up" so it's likely this effect would be minimal is not observationally "non-existent".

 

[liveforphysics]

LiPo packs use sheets of pure lithium metal foil. Between each layer is a layer of plastic (polymer). They laminate these together kinda like if you glued together a stack of cards with glue.

Here is a great video that will give you an idea of the form the lithium is in in a LiPo, and why water would be a very bad idea (lithium metal instantly reacts violantly with water).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqywKcJ0J2M

 

[liveforphysics]

Also, the part that ruptures is just the foil bag they protect the cells in to keep oxygen and water vapor from reactive with the lithium foil. When you cause enough gas to evolve in the cell that it puffs until it breaches the foil package, then oxygen can get inside and enable combustion to occur with the large amounts of hydrogen the cell is evolving out of the polymer getting broken down.

 

[TylerDurden]

Also, the part that ruptures is just the foil bag they protect the cells in to keep oxygen and water vapor from reactive with the lithium foil. When you cause enough gas to evolve in the cell that it puffs until it breaches the foil package, then oxygen can get inside and enable combustion to occur with the large amounts of hydrogen the cell is evolving out of the polymer getting broken down.

Ja, that's still a concern. the hydrogen will be bubbling out of the the oil... if there is a source of heat outside of the oil containment, the hydrogen may ignite anyway. Similar to what happens when sodium is dropped in water.

So, packs in oil may suppress the direct ignition of the lithium, but a shorted pack could still ignite, if the short were close enough to the hydrogen expressing from the pack. Hydrogen explosion could rupture the oil vessel and then you're back to a square-one thermal runaway...

Yes/No/Maybe?

 

[Mathurin]

[...]

That was great!
Sucks the lipo in nitro didn't work out.
+10 respect for trying tho

 

[Jestronix]

I think there needs to another test on this one, Im getting ideas of building a battery case filled with mineral oil, use HK multistars, running somekinda external radiator. U could keep the batteries nice and cool, even between each cell, no fire, maybe 20 to 30% weight increase ?

As a test id like to see a cell shorted at full charge in mineral oil. id say there would still be major venting, youd need some kinda expansion chamber with no air contact to take the pressure change. There must be a reason this hasn't been done commercially.

 

[whatever]

very interesting experiment