My rear drive wheel has 12 gauge Chinese spokes and 8 of 36 are missing due to breaking at the elbow, surprisingly I've still been able to ride in this condition. Would it be ok to replace the missing spokes with 13 gauge Sapims or will this cause problems?
Mixing spokes
- Thread starter electr0n
- Start date
DAND214
10 MW
If the head of the nipple is big enough not to go thru the rim, why not.
I now use 14g Sapim instead of 12 or 13g on all new builds.
Dan
I now use 14g Sapim instead of 12 or 13g on all new builds.
Dan
Ykick
1 GW
Something's better than nothing but if you're gonna go through the trouble to install 13ga nipples why not simply rebuild the wheel using a better rim and spokes?
Hard to believe the rim isn't taco'd missing 8 spokes? Perhaps you don't weigh much but I once popped 6-7 spokes on a ride and that rim would never be true again.
Hard to believe the rim isn't taco'd missing 8 spokes? Perhaps you don't weigh much but I once popped 6-7 spokes on a ride and that rim would never be true again.
The reason why I'd prefer not to rebuild the whole wheel is because that would take a lot more work than just popping in a few more spokes for the time being. I think I had so many broken spokes because they weren't evenly tensioned. I'm under 140lbs so it can't be my weight and that could be why I'm still able to ride my bike on 28 spokes. I also re-laced the spokes as they broke to try to distribute them evenly until I could get my hands on replacements.
Ykick
1 GW
Point is that the wheel should be rebuilt with proper components so that you never have to deal with broken spokes again. You obviously have truing skills but it's really not that much "more work" upon sourcing rim/spokes. Once it's done, it's done and the 12ga nightmare can be put to rest.
liveforphysics
100 TW
You want a butted spoke (Siapam and DT make Godly ones). Something that necks down to 15gauge in the middle. Then you want to put absurd tension on it.
Russell
1 MW
Another problem which causes spokes to snap off at the hub is spoke heads which don't seat well (see pic below).
If your spoke heads are not seated in the motor flange they will continue to break even if they are tensioned properly. If they simply broke because they were loose and you're against re-spoking the entire wheel then you might as well go with the Sapims. I would however check the existing spokes with calipers to see if they are infact 12G (2.60mm), sometimes "Chinese gauge" is not the same as the rest of the world's.
Here's a place to order most any gauge spokes you want, including 12G;
http://holmeshobbies.com/product.php?productid=406&cat=0&bestseller=Y
-R
If your spoke heads are not seated in the motor flange they will continue to break even if they are tensioned properly. If they simply broke because they were loose and you're against re-spoking the entire wheel then you might as well go with the Sapims. I would however check the existing spokes with calipers to see if they are infact 12G (2.60mm), sometimes "Chinese gauge" is not the same as the rest of the world's.
Here's a place to order most any gauge spokes you want, including 12G;
http://holmeshobbies.com/product.php?productid=406&cat=0&bestseller=Y
-R
The fingers
10 TW
Broke half a dozen on my last episode and wanted to replace them. LBS advised getting a whole new rim when that many go at one time. 
biohazardman
100 kW
Chinese 12G actually gauged down to 13Ga at the nipple and made from some cheap steel that constantly stretches and then breaks when you look at it wrong. Like many I had the same problem you can put anything that fits to hold you for now but the others will continue to break so sooner or later you will have most them replaced. Just use a good brand of spokes as mentioned by others and things will get better.
DAND214
10 MW
Here is a lik to 12g Sapim spokes http://www.danscomp.com/products/435925/SAPIM_STAINLESS_12G_SPOKE.html
Not sure if they have the size, but worth a shot.
Dan
Not sure if they have the size, but worth a shot.
Dan
dogman dan
1 PW
It's really fairly easy to respoke a wheel. Go for it. Single cross lacing is quite simple and easy.
Your real problem though, is not only are you wanting to save the effort of respoking the whole wheel, you can't be bothered to tune it. So the same shits going to keep happening if you keep riding around on a wheel with loose spokes. The riding you just did may have damaged all your remaining spokes, so you really need to chuck em all. Or, they were just that bad in the first place, and again, you need to dump em.
Your real problem though, is not only are you wanting to save the effort of respoking the whole wheel, you can't be bothered to tune it. So the same shits going to keep happening if you keep riding around on a wheel with loose spokes. The riding you just did may have damaged all your remaining spokes, so you really need to chuck em all. Or, they were just that bad in the first place, and again, you need to dump em.
cal3thousand
10 MW
I'm going to +1 the recommendation to build your wheels up again. I just laced 2 front wheels, a Mac 7T 26" rear, and a HS3525 26"' rear all on Sunday while watching football. They still need tensioning and final truing, but the point is that it does not take long.
This is especially true of a wheel that is already laced. Besides, a 1 cross motor is the simplest thing to lace.
After that, you will have the satisfaction of doing it yourself and the confidence that your wheel will hold up over the long run. And of course, if it does have issues going forward, you have the expertise to tackle it.
Danscomp is the best place for spokes in my opinion. I have bought a couple Sapim sets from them already and they are GREAT. Hard to beat 35 cents for straight gauge spokes and 50 cents for 14g/15g butted spokes
Use code KW10 for 10% off of any order. or 43R2 for $10 off any order over $60.
Inspiration:
(btw, I used 14G on all motors and 14G/15G butted on front wheels.)
This is especially true of a wheel that is already laced. Besides, a 1 cross motor is the simplest thing to lace.
After that, you will have the satisfaction of doing it yourself and the confidence that your wheel will hold up over the long run. And of course, if it does have issues going forward, you have the expertise to tackle it.
Danscomp is the best place for spokes in my opinion. I have bought a couple Sapim sets from them already and they are GREAT. Hard to beat 35 cents for straight gauge spokes and 50 cents for 14g/15g butted spokes
Use code KW10 for 10% off of any order. or 43R2 for $10 off any order over $60.
Inspiration:
(btw, I used 14G on all motors and 14G/15G butted on front wheels.)
liveforphysics
100 TW
Butted spokes will always make a stronger wheel than straight spokes.
IMHO, it's impossible to ever make a reliable or strong wheel with 12-13awg spokes and a bicycle rim.
A spoked wheel is only strong when the spokes are able to all be stretched enough to share loads between a wide area. Thick spokes are impossible to get the stretch distance needed to prevent it from untensioning spokes that should be sharing loads as the rim flexes a bit from loading.
A 15awg spoke (or ideally a double to triple butted spoke to be strong at the ends) will support massive torque and normal force loads.
IMHO, it's impossible to ever make a reliable or strong wheel with 12-13awg spokes and a bicycle rim.
A spoked wheel is only strong when the spokes are able to all be stretched enough to share loads between a wide area. Thick spokes are impossible to get the stretch distance needed to prevent it from untensioning spokes that should be sharing loads as the rim flexes a bit from loading.
A 15awg spoke (or ideally a double to triple butted spoke to be strong at the ends) will support massive torque and normal force loads.
The spokes are from a stock Crystalyte HS3540. I've got a set of 13 gauge Sapim replacements now and I popped a couple of them in there to temporarily reinforce the wheel for now. The Crystalyte spokes are definitely thicker but it's undoubtedly some cheap metal. I think the spokes broke due to uneven tensioning since I was able to ride around on them for almost a year without any problems. I really haven't paid much attention to my wheel aside from tightening the spokes enough so they don't make popping noises while I'm riding. I think I over tensioned some spokes and others were too loose. They all broke at the elbows. So I got some spoke washers this time as I've read that can help, we'll see.
I find it interesting that liveforphysics recommends 15 gauge butted spokes. I get the argument that the thinner gauge spokes have more give to them as the rim deforms on impact but then why do motorcycles and scooters use much thicker spokes than bicycles? One thing I can say is I've only ever broken a couple 14 gauge regular bicycle spokes yet I've broken many more of the thicker 12 gauge spokes. Also I never had to adjust the 14 gauge spokes, they don't make popping sounds or get loose over time like the 12 gauge spokes on my motor do.
I find it interesting that liveforphysics recommends 15 gauge butted spokes. I get the argument that the thinner gauge spokes have more give to them as the rim deforms on impact but then why do motorcycles and scooters use much thicker spokes than bicycles? One thing I can say is I've only ever broken a couple 14 gauge regular bicycle spokes yet I've broken many more of the thicker 12 gauge spokes. Also I never had to adjust the 14 gauge spokes, they don't make popping sounds or get loose over time like the 12 gauge spokes on my motor do.
liveforphysics
100 TW
If you have a motorcycle rim, you can put the thousand pounds of tension on each fat spoke to stretch it right right length.
If you have a bicycle rim, you cant stretch a fat spoke, the eyelets in the rim pull through and/or the rim collapses.
If you cant stretch the spokes the proper distance, its impossible for the rim to distribute force widely.
If you have a bicycle rim, you cant stretch a fat spoke, the eyelets in the rim pull through and/or the rim collapses.
If you cant stretch the spokes the proper distance, its impossible for the rim to distribute force widely.
Ykick
1 GW
Using stock Chinese 12ga or 13ga spokes, hardly a week went by without doing touchup and I just accepted that's how it was gonna be. 6-10 months they start to break at the elbow followed by a hard pothole strike which ultimately killed the cheap rim. Little did I know at the time but that was the best thing that could've happened.
Rebuilt that wheel using 13/14 quality steel butted spokes and a decent eyelet rim - coming up on a year and 3000 miles haven't had to touch it yet! I'm not an extreme rider like Luke so to keep things simpler for myself I went with the 13/14ga which are probably not as good as the 14/15 stuff but still light years ahead of that stock Chinese tin crap.
Rebuilt that wheel using 13/14 quality steel butted spokes and a decent eyelet rim - coming up on a year and 3000 miles haven't had to touch it yet! I'm not an extreme rider like Luke so to keep things simpler for myself I went with the 13/14ga which are probably not as good as the 14/15 stuff but still light years ahead of that stock Chinese tin crap.
biohazardman
100 kW
You know there are many with opinions on the spoke and rim thing. I am of the group that looks at heavier vehicles with more power, mopeds and motorcycles, and sees heavier spokes and rims. Seems to make some sort of sense. I think it's the quality of the parts and build that count for much as well as planning and building for one's intended usage. I have over 10K on my cheap but heavy Weinmann rims, now made in China, ;^( with 12Ga Sapim stainless straight spokes and am not the only one. A couple hundred of the miles are on trails. I have gone off more curbs, on my fully suspended bike, than I can count with a total vehicle weight of 250LBS. Never a broken spoke seldom have to tighten them either. They are great low/no maintenance units thus far at 2KW power and under with my riding habits.
However if they were on Luke's bike it's likely that the spokes would rip right out of the rims as there is little give/stretch here and they have no eyelets. Then again he builds/uses these and other bike parts at the extreme power end that few of us will ever reach. Because of his usage he must make allowances for his power addiction if wants to use bike parts. ;^) It looks good though when you go to stomp somebody on their motorcycle into the ground and you have those skinny spoked flimsy looking wheels and pedals on your bicycle/rocket.
I was going to go with thinner spokes on my Davinci midrive build but the rims I have are drilled for 12G so will stick with that again. From what I have seen here on the forum both types builds werq just fine for all but the most extreme uses. Just make sure you don't think all spokes/rims are of the same quality before you build.
However if they were on Luke's bike it's likely that the spokes would rip right out of the rims as there is little give/stretch here and they have no eyelets. Then again he builds/uses these and other bike parts at the extreme power end that few of us will ever reach. Because of his usage he must make allowances for his power addiction if wants to use bike parts. ;^) It looks good though when you go to stomp somebody on their motorcycle into the ground and you have those skinny spoked flimsy looking wheels and pedals on your bicycle/rocket.
I was going to go with thinner spokes on my Davinci midrive build but the rims I have are drilled for 12G so will stick with that again. From what I have seen here on the forum both types builds werq just fine for all but the most extreme uses. Just make sure you don't think all spokes/rims are of the same quality before you build.
dogman dan
1 PW
Well, sounds like you got a pretty good distance out of stock crap after all.
But I still say you have worn out the old ones by now. So get some decent spokes of your choice of guage, and get er done. You have to dismount the wheel from the bike, or at least pull the tire and tube aside, so you may as well do the whole wheel while you have it off the bike.
But I still say you have worn out the old ones by now. So get some decent spokes of your choice of guage, and get er done. You have to dismount the wheel from the bike, or at least pull the tire and tube aside, so you may as well do the whole wheel while you have it off the bike.
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