Motorcycle class Hub Motor

[knightmb]

Seeing as how the inside of the motor is basically "blank", you could technically heat seat those areas and let the scooping effect of the air cool it. Basically, all the heat would be pulled towards the outside and with a scooping heat sink, it would blow air over them like a fan as the wheel spins. I'm not sure how well it would work at very, very low speeds when the wheel RPM is very low and power levels are very high for some reason (towing?), but at least as speeds above 15MPH it would generate a good amount of air flow.

 

[Deepkimchi]

Hmm - wonder if I can mount it on my bicycle :wink:

DK

 

[markcycle]

Seeing as how the inside of the motor is basically "blank", you could technically heat seat those areas and let the scooping effect of the air cool it. Basically, all the heat would be pulled towards the outside and with a scooping heat sink, it would blow air over them like a fan as the wheel spins. I'm not sure how well it would work at very, very low speeds when the wheel RPM is very low and power levels are very high for some reason (towing?), but at least as speeds above 15MPH it would generate a good amount of air flow.

Hi I keep thinking about ways to get air into the motor and keeping water, dirt and other crap out. I even thought about epoxy encapsulation of the winding so dirt and water won't matter and I can blow filtered air through or have it be its own fan as you mention. If you want to run any hub motor with a stationary winding, shielded from air by the rotor to its max potential, then you have to consider cooling. That said Xlite does a great job of using good magnet wire and as we all know with the X5 series more often than not it's the Halls that fail before the winding burns.

Motorcycle riders love to take there equipment to the extreme and since that's the market I'm after and as much as I talk moderation I know there will be those who push this motor. This motor in some ways encourages it because it allows for so much more battery than chain drive solutions in small light weight bikes. Because of this no matter how good the winding is, I still will entertain cooling solutions for the motor. I just don't want to drive up cost for the many because of a few extremist. 8)

Mark

 

[knightmb]

Seeing as how the inside of the motor is basically "blank", you could technically heat seat those areas and let the scooping effect of the air cool it. Basically, all the heat would be pulled towards the outside and with a scooping heat sink, it would blow air over them like a fan as the wheel spins. I'm not sure how well it would work at very, very low speeds when the wheel RPM is very low and power levels are very high for some reason (towing?), but at least as speeds above 15MPH it would generate a good amount of air flow.

Hi I keep thinking about ways to get air into the motor and keeping water, dirt and other crap out. I even thought about epoxy encapsulation of the winding so dirt and water won't matter and I can blow filtered air through or have it be its own fan as you mention. If you want to run any hub motor with a stationary winding, shielded from air by the rotor to its max potential, then you have to consider cooling. That said Xlite does a great job of using good magnet wire and as we all know with the X5 series more often than not it's the Halls that fail before the winding burns.

Motorcycle riders love to take there equipment to the extreme and since that's the market I'm after and as much as I talk moderation I know there will be those who push this motor. This motor in some ways encourages it because it allows for so much more battery than chain drive solutions in small light weight bikes. Because of this no matter how good the winding is, I still will entertain cooling solutions for the motor. I just don't want to drive up cost for the many because of a few extremist. 8)

Mark

Get those "caution/warning" stickers then.
Let them know up front that you've tested the power with XYZ amount of power and it's warrantied for that only. You are right, you need to protect yourself so the first guy that goes "Cool, time to run 50K through this sucka!" catches his motor on fire and blames you for it, LOL.

 

[Graham]

Hi Mark,

I am new to this forum, having only signed up a few days ago. I regularly browse around looking for news with regard to BLDC hub motors and came across this forum (and your topic) last week. Firstly, well done on the motor. I read every page of your (motorcycle class Hub Motor) with tremendous interest. I LOVE brushless DC hub motors, due to their mechanical simplicity in electric traction applications. I developed and built my own (72V) controller to operate a BLDC hub motor (that I bought from Golden Motor about 2 years ago) and have had very good success with it. See website (hosted by a friend of mine, http://www.oldvcr.com/projects/index.html?Mode=View&ID=23 ). I am now in the process of designing a more powerful controller which will be capable of 200A continuous (for 72V nominal) or 100A continuous (for about 125V nominal). I have already purchased a pair of 1200W motors, intending to install them in both front and rear wheels. However after reading about the success you are having with your motor, I may well be tempted to purchase a motor (or assembled wheel) off you for further trials. I will gladly pass on whatever I discover about your motor once I have it up and running, as I am in a position to perform various electrical/thermal tests of my own. As a background, I work in the R&D department of ABB Limited (Napier, New Zealand), where we design and manufacture power electronic gear for the international market, up to several MegaWatts or more.

My controller is still several months away from being finished as this is an "after-hours" project of mine, however once up and running, I would like to be testing it on a motor that meets its abilities (I am presently designing it for a higher power (non-hub) Golden Motor BLDC motor. I have already purchased a Kawazaki 1988 ZX400G with its (fossil!) engine removed. Plenty of space for batteries. If need be I will on-sell the motors I have already purchased and incorporate yours. Another chap at work is also doing a bike conversion, and yet another engineer wants to build an electric trike (His third trike, but the other 2 were fossil fuel powered, so no good really...)

Ultimately my objective is to go into production with the controller once various other features have been incorporated, including CAN Bus support for electronic dash etc., but that is probably a year away still. Sorry for the "sales pitch" blurb, but I am rather interested in the new motor you have had built. If need be we can discuss further, off forum (feel free to contact me on graham DOT ward AT nz.abb.com . "Encrypted" email address in possibly vain attempt to discourage spammers. I look forward to reading further about your hub motor endevours. Best of luck!

 

[Lapwing]

Hi Mark,

I am new to this forum, having only signed up a few days ago.

Lekker, lekker boet!

You've come to the right place.

Thanks for the webpages. Brilliant controller project. You will have to tell us all more about your approach, as it gets there. I think the safety aspects you're addressing put yours a significant cut above the rest.

I was wondering about the controller display combined. You thinking of a handlebar mount for the package?

 

[markcycle]

Hi Mark,

I am new to this forum, having only signed up a few days ago.

Lekker, lekker boet!

You've come to the right place.

Thanks for the webpages. Brilliant controller project. You will have to tell us all more about your approach, as it gets there. I think the safety aspects you're addressing put yours a significant cut above the rest.

I was wondering about the controller display combined. You thinking of a handlebar mount for the package?

Welcome to the forum
I should be ready to talk about sales shortly. A high powered controller that is less costly than a Kelly controller would be great, but if its a year away then the Kelly remains the best options for the MHM602.
If I could ask please start a new thread about your controller I'm also extremely interested in it and would like to learn more, but this thread is about the Motorcycle class hub motor and its design development and application.

So this certainly is the right forum but not necessarily the right thread

Thanks
Mark

 

[markcycle]

So here is the new stator ready for the bearings and then it will be installed in the motor.

 

[voicecoils]

wow, it looks quite substantial!

That slot for the phase wire exit is very decently sized 8) (especially compared with the X5)

But, like the X5 it looks very 'over built' between the axle and the windings. Will it be further turned down / lightened?

 

[markcycle]

wow, it looks quite substantial!

That slot for the phase wire exit is very decently sized 8) (especially compared with the X5)

But, like the X5 it looks very 'over built' between the axle and the windings. Will it be further turned down / lightened?

lightening the stator will happen but not in the first pre production run which is happening next. There is a fair amount of weight to be lost, I agree. At first Xlyte wanted to go with a steel axle and prototyped one, man was that heavy. I want to get the motor out there and prove itself, then we'll take it from there.

Mark

 

[liveforphysics]

That extra aluminum will help make a good thermal pathway for transfering heat into the rear wheel stays of the bike. Many bikes use aluminum here, and perhaps assembly with a bit of heatsink compound on the contacting surfaces would be a very simple way to perhaps improve cooling.

 

[liveforphysics]

Maybe even a CPU heatsink or heatpipe mounted on the outsides of the rear wheel stays area?

What is the weight of the new version with the aluminum center?

 

[markcycle]

That extra aluminum will help make a good thermal pathway for transfering heat into the rear wheel stays of the bike. Many bikes use aluminum here, and perhaps assembly with a bit of heatsink compound on the contacting surfaces would be a very simple way to perhaps improve cooling.

With the old stator the rear swingarm gets very warm from the axle transferring heat out of the motor. A custom swingarm could add a large heatsink surface to dissipate heat. There is about 30% more copper in this stator raising the KV (more RPM per volt) so with the controller I have, we'll see how much heating there is. As soon as I get sales going for this product I going to explore ways to get crazy amounts of power from the motor with cooling, so keep the ideas coming and one day I'll show a hub motor super bike. If someone doesn't buy one of these motors and beats me to it.
I don't know the weight the copper added to the design, less steel with the deeper laminations replaced with copper.

Mark

 

[GGoodrum]

Do you think it will be too hard to have a lower kV version of this as well at some point? the reason I ask is that I still think the ultimate solution will be a version setup to do wye/delta switching, so that it is setup for maximum torque in the wye mode, and then switched into delta mode to get a higher top speed. I know we probably need a new/modified controller to optimize this, but I think this is going to be easier to do than anything mechanical. May Steve at Kelly can be convinced to do this at some point. We'll see how Doc's x5 tests go, plus some others.

-- Gary

 

[markcycle]

Do you think it will be too hard to have a lower kV version of this as well at some point? the reason I ask is that I still think the ultimate solution will be a version setup to do wye/delta switching, so that it is setup for maximum torque in the wye mode, and then switched into delta mode to get a higher top speed. I know we probably need a new/modified controller to optimize this, but I think this is going to be easier to do than anything mechanical. May Steve at Kelly can be convinced to do this at some point. We'll see how Doc's x5 tests go, plus some others.

-- Gary

The KV of this motor has been equivalent to a 5304, now with the new "Deep stator" it should be closer to the KV of a 5303 so 72 volts and 85 amps should get you about 60 MPH in a 18 inch motorcycle rim/3.5 inch tire. Its a 2 turn motor so the only way to lower the KV any more is to lower the winding resistance. Which is what the Deep stator does. For small wheels like a 10 inch to 14 inch pit bike wheel a Delta connected winding will work great and plan on offering the wheel Wye for 16, 17, 18 inch motorcycle wheels and Delta for 10, 12, up to 14 inch pit bike wheels. Though I am only stocking the wheel for motorcycle use in 17 and 18 inch. But will sell the motor to those who want to spoke a wheel on there own. The smallest rim possible is a 10 inch scooter rim.
I'm not sure there is a need to switch between Wye/Delta with this motor on the fly.

Mark

 

[johnhead@frontiernet.net]

Mark, I'm still prototyping my leaning three wheel motorcycle, and I have a couple of questions that you may be able to answer for me?
IF I should use two of your motors in the two rear driving wheels, what type of controller and how many might I need?
I would expect to have only half the range using two motors however my main concern is in cornering where one wheel would have to go faster than the other? Would this be a problem for a "stock" type controller? I can use a "normal" type of motor with a differential and dual chain drive, however Your Hub motors really interest me. I am very proficient with spoking and truing wheels!
Thank You
John Head

 

[kingjamez]

John,
You'll be FAR better off going with 2 controllers. 2 Brushless (sensorless I presume) DC motors are near impossible to run off of one controller. The timing of the advancing field is not likely to be the same for each motor and the differing back emf's will just confuse the controller.

Mark, any idea when you will have a price estimate? I'm trying to decide on your motor or an Angi. The low dollar/pound ratio right now has be not wanting to wait much longer before I make a decision.

-Jim

 

[markcycle]

Mark, I'm still prototyping my leaning three wheel motorcycle, and I have a couple of questions that you may be able to answer for me?
IF I should use two of your motors in the two rear driving wheels, what type of controller and how many might I need?
I would expect to have only half the range using two motors however my main concern is in cornering where one wheel would have to go faster than the other? Would this be a problem for a "stock" type controller? I can use a "normal" type of motor with a differential and dual chain drive, however Your Hub motors really interest me. I am very proficient with spoking and truing wheels!
Thank You
John Head

Like kingjamez said 2 controller and 2 motors but the good thing is the 2 motors will act like a natural differential if the controllers are in current mode, which is how most controllers work.

You will not get half the range because the motors will see half the load each but you will lose some due to efficiency losses.

We need to talk off line about spoking wheels I'm sure If your interested we can work together.

About price next week I promise I will quote a price and delivery time for the wheel. I would of done it already if it wasn't for the new stator. I just have to make sure it works as intended hate to order a bunch of non working motors. I'm sure its fine it's just how I am test first sell second. I know its not the modern way of promise what you can't deliver. But the engineer in me goes counter to the text book sales methods.

Mark

 

[dnmun]

mark, this is likely too much for kenny to do, but i had another idea following along my original idea of drawing the heat out through the coupling.

if you can get kenny to push the diameter of your bearings up to 50mm or so, that would give you a much larger area inside the bearing to either run cooling tubes inside of the bearing or allow the heat to be drawn out by conduction through the coupling.

or he could turn the stator with larger bosses on each side for the bearings to run on and not even be concerned with the coupling itself. but that would involve redesign of the castings on each side and specifications for a larger bearing to fit.

but that could be the next iteration, the next model after this one, once you can get ahead of the game somewhat.

BOL, wish you all the success you can get. dm

 

[markcycle]

mark, this is likely too much for kenny to do, but i had another idea following along my original idea of drawing the heat out through the coupling.

if you can get kenny to push the diameter of your bearings up to 50mm or so, that would give you a much larger area inside the bearing to either run cooling tubes inside of the bearing or allow the heat to be drawn out by conduction through the coupling.

or he could turn the stator with larger bosses on each side for the bearings to run on and not even be concerned with the coupling itself. but that would involve redesign of the castings on each side and specifications for a larger bearing to fit.

but that could be the next iteration, the next model after this one, once you can get ahead of the game somewhat.

BOL, wish you all the success you can get. dm

The ID of the bearing is 60mm so its very adaptable to water cooling and there is plenty of space to bring tubing in and out of the motor. The hard part is designing a efficient cooling system within the motor. When you overamp a winding there can be local hot spots even if the stator itself is cool, so a simulation needs to be built first then testing and more testing needs to be done.

As I said first things first lets get the motor out there, but keeps the ideas coming just understand this all takes so much time to get right and get the vendor on board to build it. Kenny has been great, a real believer in the concept of a motorcycle hub motor, including letting me teach him all the legalities of selling a motor vehicle part.

Mark

 

[John in CR]

...first lets get the motor out there...

Did you work for a big car manufacturer, who are known to go to market with known defects? You've significantly increased the power of what is essentially a wider X5 motor, with only a slight increase in surface area plus a larger axle through which some more heat can be conducted, but that's it. Is there an increase in efficiency that I missed? X5's have heat issues when pushed, so you know heat is going to be an issue. Why sell a motor without at least first attempting some meaningful solution, or are you planning to provide a number of beta test units and have others help fine tune a solution?

John

 

[markcycle]

...first lets get the motor out there...

Did you work for a big car manufacturer, who are known to go to market with known defects? You've significantly increased the power of what is essentially a wider X5 motor, with only a slight increase in surface area plus a larger axle through which some more heat can be conducted, but that's it. Is there an increase in efficiency that I missed? X5's have heat issues when pushed, so you know heat is going to be an issue. Why sell a motor without at least first attempting some meaningful solution, or are you planning to provide a number of beta test units and have others help fine tune a solution?

John

Heat is a problem for any motor when pushed yes/no? So don't push it. Better yet I recommend you don't buy it. Lobing insults at me accomplishes what?
Is there an increase in efficiency that I missed yes
Look at the deep stator picture first then talk please Not an X5 design at all.

Mark

 

[huskydave]

I have an idea for the cooling. Compressed air running low psi into the side cover on one side and an exhaust vent out the other. You could run a small compressor off of the front wheel or of of the battery.

 

[John in CR]

Is there an increase in efficiency that I missed yes

Oh really, where are the test reports? You know you've got a heat issue, yet you apparently have no budget to solve it first and just want to get busy selling them ASAP. Cutting R&D short isn't doing anyone a favor, including yourself. You've got 60mm inside the bearings, so go ahead and do what you know needs to be done. It's not like it's even something that difficult.

John

 

[dnmun]

this is totally uncalled for, i'm not gonna watch this happen again,like on the lifebatt thread when jozzer got trashed by JD.

so i would ask john to drop it now, please. if you haven't figured out by yet how much all of us really appreciate what he is doing, you kinda missed a lot. you blew up at knuckles for no reason and i'm not sure why you have started this on mark. nothing wrong with them because they are both living on long island, and he is just doing his own thing, his own way. so please drop it.