Motorsport, Racing, The Future

[Hillhater]

Electric rally racing would be cool. Oval racing sucks.

Like this ?.....
[youtube]AXExY-aQYt0[/youtube]

 

[ProEV]

To be clear I'm talking about grassroots motorsport:
AutoX, karting, MX, cross country motorcycle and similar. The kind of thing people do as a hobby.

I remember karting in mall parking lots and riding crosscountry motorcycles practically in town. People didn't used to consider silence a right.

Those are the motorsports which EVs have the potential to save in my opinion.

Electrathon is a great grassroots EV race series. We race on both permanent tracks and parking lots. It is inexpensive. The rules allow innovation; basically a set weight of battery and the drivers all ballasted to the same weight. 3 or 4 wheels. Ebike motors and controllers work well.

One hour long races keep the speeds down but this allows wheel to wheel racing without too much danger. Low rolling resistance tires keep the vehicles traction limited so wheel spin and drifting make driving a test of skill.

Information here about the series: https://www.electrathonamerica.org/

Here is a short video of the ProEV SuperCoupe in action. Watch for the attempted pass
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrooRo7ZNLk

 

[markz]

Racing would seem like a good socially distanced sport, as long as there is no pit stops.
Is there any racing going on in some of the not so locked down USA states?

 

[Grantmac]

To be clear I'm talking about grassroots motorsport:
AutoX, karting, MX, cross country motorcycle and similar. The kind of thing people do as a hobby.

I remember karting in mall parking lots and riding crosscountry motorcycles practically in town. People didn't used to consider silence a right.

Those are the motorsports which EVs have the potential to save in my opinion.

Electrathon is a great grassroots EV race series. We race on both permanent tracks and parking lots. It is inexpensive. The rules allow innovation; basically a set weight of battery and the drivers all ballasted to the same weight. 3 or 4 wheels. Ebike motors and controllers work well.

One hour long races keep the speeds down but this allows wheel to wheel racing without too much danger. Low rolling resistance tires keep the vehicles traction limited so wheel spin and drifting make driving a test of skill.

Information here about the series: https://www.electrathonamerica.org/

Here is a short video of the ProEV SuperCoupe in action. Watch for the attempted pass
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrooRo7ZNLk

That is awesome, I love it! Exactly the kind of racing which I'm talking about.

The other is small EV motorcycles which can work in a parking lot, or E-Trials which is becoming an FIA sport.

 

[ProEV]

Racing would seem like a good socially distanced sport, as long as there is no pit stops.
Is there any racing going on in some of the not so locked down USA states?

Electrathon of Tampa has managed an abbreviated season. They have a well organized solid volunteer group. Outdoor, Social distancing, mandated masks, teams staying in their bubble. When people are respectful and cooperative, it can be done.

https://electrathonoftampabay.org/www/

 

[Grantmac]

Interesting to see most people go for a trike without suspension (that I can see), seems that efficiency is more important than handling. Keeps it simple I suppose.

 

[Dauntless]

Racing would seem like a good socially distanced sport, as long as there is no pit stops.
Is there any racing going on in some of the not so locked down USA states?

Professional racing resumed what, last June? The SCCA bragged that when the Indy 500 didn't go Memorial Day weekend they had a full schedule of club racing coast to coast.

A Spec Tesla class would mean literally they put in roll cages and seats/belts/safety, but then I don't know what else. There'd probably be some programming chip on an electric. And this would be for amateurs. But what an expensive class.

Can't imagine what electric class would take the world by storm, but electric bullrings sound like quite an expected stepping stone. Especially on dirt.

 

[Hillhater]

Rallycross is a booming series worldwide, with many major manufactures represented.
Spectators like to see something much like their road cars being raced...even if the mechanicals are nothing like stock.
The races are spectacular , but short..less than 10 mins, so idealy suited to EV power. Ford, Pergeot, and Renault, already have EV cars in the comp.
I can imagine an EV series for Stadium Trucks soon also with Tesla, Rivian, Ford, GM, etc already to launch .

 

[ProEV]

Interesting to see most people go for a trike without suspension (that I can see), seems that efficiency is more important than handling. Keeps it simple I suppose.

Keeping it simple is more in play here. I am pretty sure the vehicle that set the fastest ever one hour race pace (62.1 MPH) had a full suspension. We are running a pretty sophisticated four way adjustable spring/shock combination on the rear. The front is fixed but with adjustable camber, toe and castor.

We keep talking about building a new chassis to try a leaning suspension, free to castor, and/or rear wheel steering. I think there is lots of room for improvement there.

 

[Grantmac]

RallyX is already going electric at the top of the game, I believe in 2022. Either way demo cars are out.
Stadium truck is definitely another good option but I don't see their fanbase getting behind it.

The thing with Teslas is that a "Spec" class always survives on reasonably priced, common, fairly low powered, good handling cars. Teslas aren't any of that. Would be a rich man's novelty game and honestly few of them give a lick about EVs.

ProEV,

Definitely seems like a class with loads of innovative potential. Perhaps if battery technology improves they will allow 2-4kw/h and it can become more of a race because it seems like efficiency is prioritized over everything else including handling. Certainly you can't really throw around a trike.

 

[Hillhater]

The thing with Teslas is that a "Spec" class always survives on reasonably priced, common, fairly low powered, good handling cars. Teslas aren't any of that. Would be a rich man's novelty game and honestly few of them give a lick about EVs.

Yes, the secret to successful and a wide adoption of a motorsport, it to keep the costs under control..to eliminate “Cheque book racing”. ..
The classic ICE example is Go Karts where the specs dictate most areas such as Chassis dimensions, material (steel only) ,weight, no suspension, spec tires, motors, fuel, driver age (junior classes) etc etc etc ..obviously with different classes for motor make, and capacity.
There are now attempts to “electrify” some Kart classes, and be competitive with existing ICEs, but i am not sure that is the way to go .with the current battery technology. But a similar approach to “keep it Simple” and relatively low cost.

Certainly you can't really throw around a trike...

? Drift Trike ??
I could imagine a lot of fun with a low powered ( ?1.0kW ?) Drift trike class, racing on something like a short kart track or parking lot (which is how go Karting started )
https://newstylecorpstore.com/?product=superride-1000watts-electric-drift-trike
It is probably already happening somewhere ?
http://electrikedrift.com/ ( but not with the “castor wheels.... prefer the PVC pipe sleeved tires !)

 

[Grantmac]

Unfortunately kart racing doesn't control well for cost. Folks competing nationally have a MOTOR budget of +$10K/year, it's actually a more expensive sport than most grassroots car classes in terms of equipment if not transportation.

I actually think karting makes a lot of sense to be electrified, it's all sprint races and most karts only brake using the back axle which would allow real regenerative braking plus a smaller mechanical backup. Even burning through 3 batteries a year would cost less than some people spend on motors and likely last years packs would be fine for practice, much like tires.

The other sports to look at are 2 wheeled. Trials is already going EV. Enduro could too with swappable packs. Likely also Supermoto and nobody should forget that the Isle of Man TT has had an EV class for years.

 

[Hillhater]

“Big Budget” ICE kart motor classes are the result of tuning small (125cc) 2 stroke motors to the ragged edge of 20,000rpm.
Like Top fuel drag racers, ..they dont last long, and a fresh motor for each race is essential if you want to be competitive.
BUT, they are the top line classes, not the grass roots amature competitors. But even 10K is not exactly a big budget !!
A spec motor & Battery drive package, with regulation chassis and tyres etc, would be an ideal “grass roots” package
There is nothing spec or economical about the IOM “Zero” TT EV racers...that has been dominated by the big factory custom machines of Honda.

 

[ProEV]

ProEV,

Definitely seems like a class with loads of innovative potential. Perhaps if battery technology improves they will allow 2-4kw/h and it can become more of a race because it seems like efficiency is prioritized over everything else including handling. Certainly you can't really throw around a trike.

It has been an interesting experience moving from four wheels to three. The tadpole configuration (two front, one rear) can be absolutely thrown around. You can induce some nice power on oversteer with your right foot . Properly set up, they handle well.

Carrying speed through the corners is vital to avoid the energy cost of braking, so handling is a priority. The challenge is to maximize grip without too much of an increase in drag. This means mechanical grip rather than aero. I am seeing over 2 Gs in corners (twice the force of gravity sideways).

There have been discussions about raising the energy limit from 1 kWhr, but Electrathon provides an excellent balance of speed and safety. Many of our races are in parking lots fenced off for the day. The design rules for safety structures like rollover bars are very simple and easy to enforce and still be safe. There are a number of high school and college teams that help organize and host events which might not be able to participate if speeds were greater.

A faster series would, like modern go karting, require using purpose built tracks. So the event organizer would have to rent a go cart track or full size race track. The design regulations would need to be more detailed and scrutineering increased. These things are all possible but need enough competitors in the same area. What we are learning racing Electrathons will apply to faster series.

 

[spinningmagnets]

"...A Spec Tesla class would mean literally they put in roll cages and seats/belts/safety..."

I remember that's the same idea that created the IROC series. Drivers from a variety of race car types were all given identical Chevy Camaro's and they raced on tracks similar to trans-am. A couple of straights for opportunities to pass, and lots of curves in both directions to test suspensions.

Trans Am was a test of drivers, but especially a test of limited-edition cars, like the Boss Mustang and Z28 Camaro.

The IROC series had identical cars drawn by lottery just before the race, and it focused on just the different drivers.

I would love a Tesla IROC series...Model-3 AWD version...

 

[Dauntless]

The original IROC was the idea of Porsche for the 911 Carrera, which Penske had raced previously (Gee, only the two Penske driver's won races) and built out more than a dozen to run 3 races in a weekend at Riverside. At the time Porsche sold more than half their cars in the U.S. and 90% of those in California, so only one more race in conjunction with the 24 Hours of Daytona make financial sense to them. But they were only interested in a one off for this expensive experiment.

Chevrolet meanwhile could afford a bigger spectacle and Penske had won 21 of 36 starts in the TransAm with Camaros, so it was a good fit. And it became a more year round, country wide series. But more the American Road Race of Champions, unfortunately. Then primarily the NASCAR Race of partly Champions.

If it's international, how about something like the A1 Grand Prix. (I'm actually way ahead of you on this one, Mr. Magnets.) Show up not just with cars for major names, but the local countries would have a few up and comers needing a break as Takuma Sato was for some time in Japan. Think of the screaming crowds. Kind of like the old days of NASCAR when there were a few races in the bull rings at county fairs and a Richard Petty or such was given a few dollars to go race the local boys. Of course in a far more upscale manner.

But this only happens if Tesla wants to sponsor it.

 

[markz]

Who knows what Mr. Tesla wants, he recently bought millions in bit coin, last year he smoked weed with Joe Rogan.

They got rid of the stadium horse racing, stadium still there for the once a year rodeo, fireworks, and animal racing.
Race track left 15 yrs ago, plans to build a new one but the farmers raising a stink. Lots of smaller race tracks around in the sticks.
I will put that on my to do list, go see a national level race. I want to hear the rumble of fossil fuels burning, not the high pitch hummm of electrons. To each their own.

But this only happens if Tesla wants to sponsor it.

 

[Grantmac]

ProEV,

Definitely seems like a class with loads of innovative potential. Perhaps if battery technology improves they will allow 2-4kw/h and it can become more of a race because it seems like efficiency is prioritized over everything else including handling. Certainly you can't really throw around a trike.

It has been an interesting experience moving from four wheels to three. The tadpole configuration (two front, one rear) can be absolutely thrown around. You can induce some nice power on oversteer with your right foot . Properly set up, they handle well.

Carrying speed through the corners is vital to avoid the energy cost of braking, so handling is a priority. The challenge is to maximize grip without too much of an increase in drag. This means mechanical grip rather than aero. I am seeing over 2 Gs in corners (twice the force of gravity sideways).

There have been discussions about raising the energy limit from 1 kWhr, but Electrathon provides an excellent balance of speed and safety. Many of our races are in parking lots fenced off for the day. The design rules for safety structures like rollover bars are very simple and easy to enforce and still be safe. There are a number of high school and college teams that help organize and host events which might not be able to participate if speeds were greater.

A faster series would, like modern go karting, require using purpose built tracks. So the event organizer would have to rent a go cart track or full size race track. The design regulations would need to be more detailed and scrutineering increased. These things are all possible but need enough competitors in the same area. What we are learning racing Electrathons will apply to faster series.

Didn't realize you were hitting 2gs on tires that skinny, impressive! Carrying speed seems to be the way to rack up laps along with keeping the rolling resistance way down obviously.

My assumption that the tadpoles struggle to handle was based on that video you posted. Then again I've seen karts do the same thing.

I'm actually surprised you require any rollover protection since it's not required for karting.

 

[ProEV]

My assumption that the tadpoles struggle to handle was based on that video you posted. Then again I've seen karts do the same thing.

I'm actually surprised you require any rollover protection since it's not required for karting.

There was a slight divot off track at the apex of the corner. The driver dropped the inside wheel into it. The tire hit the edge of the pavement as it came out of the hole, propelling that side of the solid suspension upwards. Combined with the driver trying to turn the vehicle...

I have done a barrel role in a racing kart as well. My guess is that karts have been around long enough that the argument is karts have never had roll over protection, not that not having seat belts or roll over protection is a good idea.

 

[Hillhater]

..... My guess is that karts have been around long enough that the argument is karts have never had roll over protection, not that not having seat belts or roll over protection is a good idea.

It has been reviewed many times..
The conclusion is that it is safer to be thrown out of a Kart (and Bike), rather than be enclosed in a roll cage, since for the cage to be effective, the driver would need to be belted in.....which then leads to the risk from fire if the driver is belted in.
Fire suits and suppression systems would then become potential requirements !
All a step too far for what is meant to be a simple, low cost, motor sport.
Very few serious injuries in Karting that i am aware of ?
Having said that, i believe there are some Kart classes in the USA that have Roll Hoops for head protection
PS.. one of the (many) reasons Karting moved to purpose built tracks was to prevent accidents and damage caused by contact with kerbs , pot holes, drain covers, sign posts, etc etc ..in parking lots.!

 

[spinningmagnets]

A potential electric kart fire should be limited to the battery pack. That being said, I assumed a roll cage and dual shoulder belts would be as required as much as a helmet and leathers.

Karting is a perfect venue for an electric race series. Low cost of entry, and easily transportable when the trailer can be pulled by a car.

 

[Grantmac]

Rollover protection and belts aren't safe unless the vehicle is enclosed. Karts are safer because they don't have either one.
This is especially true on tracks like parking lots which have lots of rigid things to hit.

 

[Hillhater]

Karting is a perfect venue for an electric race series. Low cost of entry, and easily transportable when the trailer can be pulled by a car.

Electric karting has been around much longer even than Ebikes !
There was even a European Championship for them in the ‘90s
More commonly now , most of the indoor rental kart operators are using them
But they are becoming more integrated into the “professional” kart competitions.
As with all EV applications, the main limitation is battery capacityy and weight.
Recently they have been “showcased” alongside the Formula E series in major capital cities.
http://www.birelartrental.com/2017/05/23/our-e-karts-at-formula-e-paris-2017/

PS ir used to be common to see carts being taken to race meetings on roof racks and even (half ?) in small hatchbacks.
Personally, .. i used a midsized station wagon !

 

[markz]

Or a small trailer, or a rear hitch carrier.

How heavy are normal i.c.e. karts compared to a batteryless kart.

 

[Hillhater]

The common “TAG” 125cc clutched class is around 85-90 kg without driver, but the top level 100cc direct drive classes run to a minimum 75 Kg for chassis with motor ready to run.
Those Electric rental karts are quoted at 185 kg !
A 2 stroke 100/125 cc DD kart motoe weighs around 10kg