mx500 dirt bike with x5404

I

iovaykind

10 kW
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May 16, 2011
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Okay, going to keep this short and simple as I just need a place to document all I'm doing.

Razor mx500 electric dirt bike
x5404 scooter style motor
18fet 4110 infineon 60a controller
20s2p lipo

original bike got it used without batteries for $80 with new front tire included:
MX500_Product.jpg


x5404 scooter motor (perhaps actually an x53xx.. because its weight is around the 30lb mark with wiring, can't confirm)

Bike dismantled with scooter x5404 test fitted on dropout
998383_10200118745956316_1305312939_n.jpg


Needed to move the dropouts closer so chopped it up and used some square steel tubing I had.
2qiwshl.jpg

70w0gj.jpg

ibysd2.jpg

2bb9tk.jpg


How it sits now.. about 1/2" extended swingarm, negligible:
2jdjhbk.jpg

Next steps to wait for 4110 controller which will go under the seat.. build the battery pack, and ride!
 
SUPER !!!!

Tell me more about the motor, rim, and tire.

Where did you get it?
Was motor and rim in 1 piece? OR did you have to fit a rim to it? Did it come with a tire or did you have to put one on?

I hot rodded my sons's MX650 with lipos, high amp controller and high watt motor and modded gearing so we both share the same interest. Was thinking about going hub and love your idea. Tell us more about yours.
 
I'd like to see your hotrodded mx650!

The motor was bought off ebay for a whopping $125 shipped. (Got a second one for $95 shipped lol) It had a weird axle that was for bolt on type dropouts. I took the original 10" tire from the mx500 and put it on the x5404.. it was a 10" hub, and the motor and rim are one piece. It had this special side cover instead of the usual side covers that have spoke holes for bike rims. The tires and tubes on it are originals.

This mx500 build came about only because I still haven't found a suitable 50/70/90/110/150cc scooter to convert. I want something that is street legal, and the other x5404 will go into a street legal scooter.
 
Trackman417 said:
You are the man 8)
I'm telling you, 4115's :p
Click to expand...


Sorry, I doubt that the 4115 will handle the 5400 serie very low inductance motor.

Doc
 
Waiting for the 4110 controller from cell_man and currently balancing up the 20s2p lipo battery.

The 4115 controller is staying on the magic pie trike.

Drbass, can you explain what you mean by the 4115 not being able to handle the x5404?
 
iovaykind said:
Waiting for the 4110 controller from cell_man and currently balancing up the 20s2p lipo battery.

The 4115 controller is staying on the magic pie trike.

Drbass, can you explain what you mean by the 4115 not being able to handle the x5404?
Click to expand...


The 4115 dissipate more than twice more heat for the same current.

The 5400 serie are known to be more difficult to drive and there is very high phase current at low rpm. Well your 04 might be a little different but my 03 is a infineon controller burner :lol:
Doc
 
Ah, that's what you meant. Yes, the 5403 should be a controller killer more so than the 5404. Will have to see how the controller holds up first. Maybe start off pushing 50a, 130a phase, and then step up to 60a, 150a phase if the controller stays cool.
 
I think you guys are forgetting that the 5404 is in a 20" scooter rim. I don't think it will be drawing too many Amps compared to a 26" bicycle rim.

How's the build going, any pics for us? :wink:
 
^and I think YOU'RE forgetting that this is actually a 16" total diameter hubbie :)

Builds on a hold.. balancing batteries in the mean time SLOWLYY with a battery medic :lol: waiting for the controller to come in!
 
So it's all done.. this thing needs more speed and less torque. At 100% speed its 23mph.. using 20s lipo. Torque is easily enough to throw you off though..

thinking about swapping the 4115 controller over and running 24s but that would still leave me at maybe 27mph top speed. 120% setting should get me into the 30's though. I can sacrifice a bit of torque for higher speed.. now to see if I can get regen working at 24s..

I have gopro vids but I can't find a good quick and dirty way to cut and edit real fast and upload to youtube so it'll have to wait.
 
Hot damn man. That is not what I was expecting at all. I was thinking atleast low-mid 30's or so with 20s. I guess I better sell my x5404 scooter hub then, I don't want to lay down the extra money just for 4115 fets :cry:. Not when I am saving up for going away to college.
Hehe, though you said the 4115's would not be enough to handle the 5404 :p
 
Just played with the settings.. I think I'm hitting between 25-30mph now with 115% speed setting. I don't really want any more without have regen sorted out, which will require the r12 mod.

It was doctorbass that said the 4115 wouldn't handle the x5404. I'm thinking that it will, I don't see why not. Not really sure I want to switch the controllers though because I'm just lazy :lol:
 
Your worried about braking at 25-30mph? Aren't the disc brakes that come with the mX-500 somewhat good? I mean they look 10X beefier than bike brakes. Ehh why am I expecting so much from an almost Walmart quality bike? :p

Swapping controllers is definately something I will dread when I think about buying another one. So much work. Doctorbass came up with the great idea to use a DB-25 connector for the smaller wires. Keeps everything almost interchangeable. Great idea he came up with.
 
The front brakes were shotty so I used the rear ones in the front. Turns out that the longer cabling dramatically affects braking power. Anyway, I fixed up the original front cable and now its not so scary braking. Still in an emergency, these front brakes alone are not going to help too much. They are beefier than bike brakes but aren't real dirt bike brakes.. heck, dirt bike brakes aren't amazing either. Nothing really stops like my R6 did.. two fingers and you can do a stoppie.

Swapping controllers won't be bad for me.. everything is basically plug and play already with cell_man controllers. I'm just too lazy to even undo the zip ties on the dirt bike or open up the seat on the trike lol
 
Doctorbass said:
The 4115 dissipate more than twice more heat for the same current.

The 5400 serie are known to be more difficult to drive and there is very high phase current at low rpm. Well your 04 might be a little different but my 03 is a infineon controller burner :lol:
Doc
Click to expand...

I use 4115's controllers that I have built (all using matched FETs) on a 18.6KV Cromotor with 30uH inductance, that's less than a 5302 has and it works fine. The 18 FET setup will sustain around 100A battery for around 30 sec before heat becomes an issue. The 18 FET IRFB4110 (matched FETs) controller is able to run around 140A. I can't get a 24 FET IRFB4115 controller running 160A battery side / 200A phase to get over 72C with totally abusive riding.

I have yet to try one of these controllers on a higher inductance motor to see if it will reduce the temps at all, but I don't think it will beyond the fact that most higher inductance motors are slower winds and will average less over all amps.

Don't forget that at IRFB4115's produce less switching losses on the same controller vs IRFB4110 FETs. It's at 100% throttle they run hotter due to the higher RDSon, but it's easy to up the voltage to 125V on an IRFB4115 setup.

In the end it's all about matching the proper controller to the motor you are using.
 
Very true zombiess. I am new to this higher powered controller stuff but I understand the basics of inductance and mosfet specs. I think a big part of your success at such high power levels is your xpd which can run 0s block timing.

I'll be happy running this little dirt bike on 20s.. I got the regen to work.. slip charge is too strong because it breaks the rear wheel loose even on clean surfaces so I'll have to turn it off. On EBS level 0, its already a really strong brake.. after I reflash to turn off slip charge I'll have to see if regular EBS will also lock up the rear wheel. I guess that's the price paid for a small wheel.. even 800w of regen is a lot. I was hoping to be able to tie the ebrakes to the regen but with such strong regen I think I'll have to utilize only front brakes and use the green button as regen for downhills and emergency braking.
 
iovaykind said:
Very true zombiess. I am new to this higher powered controller stuff but I understand the basics of inductance and mosfet specs. I think a big part of your success at such high power levels is your xpd which can run 0s block timing.

I'll be happy running this little dirt bike on 20s.. I got the regen to work.. slip charge is too strong because it breaks the rear wheel loose even on clean surfaces so I'll have to turn it off. On EBS level 0, its already a really strong brake.. after I reflash to turn off slip charge I'll have to see if regular EBS will also lock up the rear wheel. I guess that's the price paid for a small wheel.. even 800w of regen is a lot. I was hoping to be able to tie the ebrakes to the regen but with such strong regen I think I'll have to utilize only front brakes and use the green button as regen for downhills and emergency braking.
Click to expand...

In my limited experience with slip charge it's weaker than engaging full regen with a button through the ebrake. What model of controller are you running? Is it an EB3xx or EB2xx. If it's an EB2xx there are 2 version of the 18 FET that I know of, one has 3 shunts, one has 4 shunts. If extra shunts have been added it will increase the regen force on EB2xx boards. EB3xx board shunt mods do not increase the regen force. Bit confusing and no one else has confirmed my findings yet so take them for what they are.

I do know that when I pull 40A of regen on a regular 9.3Kv Cromotor in a 20" tire on level 2 it slows me down fast. My 18" high speed wind Cromotor is strong as well but provides a smoother engagement. It can chirp the tire with ebrake engagement at 40+ mph.
 
I have an EB318. If anyone can confirm that slip charge is weaker than EBS I'll tie it with the ebrakes and have the green button by full on regen. However it sure didn't feel like it was weaker. The 16" wheel makes a big difference even from 20".. the magic pie on the trike has slip charge and I like it.. saves the disc brakes a lot I'm sure.

Another question to ponder is whether there is a level lower than 0 for the EBS (which is about 10a).. If I could halve that I'd be happy using regen on the dirt bike because right now it will always lock the rear wheel up even if I sit really far back on the seat. Makes it only usable when going down the short driveway and slow speeds lol
 
It must be a slow wind motor as most of my setups are in 18-21" tires and regen has never been brutal on any controller. I have a 9C 2808 in a 26" setup which is of course tame on regen. Maybe part of is is my frame design, when I brake hard I always weight shift back, but I also have a really small cockpit due to building the frame on a childs bike. Nothing says safe like flying down the road on a $20 yard sale special full suspension kids bike hacked together by a so-so mechanic :D Actually it's pretty stable, but I only do high speed for exhibition stuff and testing, not normal riding, the setup is not suitable for +40mph commuting IMO.
 
Hacked up a video today with gopro footage.. and one clip with phone. Once I get all the programming and settings worked out I plan to do a video with gopro/dslr footage and make a legit video.

In the mean time.. enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dNBuOdqWOw

Going to get some shots of flybys to take out some of the more boring footage to complete the video.
 
iovaykind said:
Hacked up a video today with gopro footage.. and one clip with phone. Once I get all the programming and settings worked out I plan to do a video with gopro/dslr footage and make a legit video.

In the mean time.. enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zpA40SJh2Y
Click to expand...
Oh man dude.
That is insane! Hard to believe it is only 65 amps. Wow :shock:
 
Trackman417 said:
Oh man dude.
That is insane! Hard to believe it is only 65 amps. Wow :shock:
Click to expand...

High power motor, small diameter tire = massive torque, especially on something like a x5404 which has a KV < 9 since I have seen the x5403 is around 9.6KV. Makes it a real stump puller. A x5402 would be a much nicer match for that ride due to the small tire, maybe open up the covers and terminate the motor in delta vs WYE to make it higher speed. Having it go 1.7 times faster with 1.7x less torque (unless you up the amps) could turn it into a real death machine.
 
do tell more.. I've looked into it but didn't know it was a simple retermination of the phases? I may do it for the other one I have lying around then swap the motors out.
 
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