My firts ebike --- MAC, Bafang, MXUS???

[Obscuro]

Hi,

First, sorry for my bad english.....

I´m a newbie in this e-bike world. This days I was reading a lot in this forum.

I read endless-sphere wiki, too and I was learn a lot.

Now, after all the theory, I have some questions about my particular case.

I have a cheap mountain bike that I like to transform in my first e-bike to use in the city, principally.

I see some online shops and some seller in alibaba and ebay.

After read I think that MAC or Bafang can be my best ellection. But I need that people with experience advice me.

Some dates:

My weight: 220lbs more or less.
My City: Santa Cruz de Tenerife. Isn´t a flat City, have a lot of hills, a lot between 6º - 11º

I think in something like MAC 10T or Bafang BPM 36V500W can us good for me. But when more read, more confused :?

Are this motors sufficient for me, or do you recommend me another option?

My other big question is what battery I need to use, firstly I think on a 24V, later on a 36V10Ah somethink like this: http://www.bmsbattery.com/36v/522-bottle-ebike-battery.html or a 36V15Ah like this: http://www.bmsbattery.com/36v/475-36v-15ah-lithium-ion-electric-bicycle-battery-pack.html

I know that LiFePO4 have more cycles but for my first ebike I haven´t a big budget

What do you think is this configuration good for climb the hills of my city or I need a more powerfull configuration?

Thanks, Obscuro

 

[SHARKBITEATTACK]

I completed my first build not long ago and used a 2808 9C motor and have been very happy with it. Lots of power and fairly low cost compared to some of the geared motors.

 

[RoadWrinkle]

First, check out Ypedal's summation for beginners, lot of great info there: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26488

With your weight and those hills you would most likely find any 500watt/36v bike underpowered. The MAC at 1000watts with at least 48v 12Ah battery is what you should shoot for, IMHO.

I have the Bafang model 12 at 500W, 48v 10Ah and it is a great motor but has its limitations on steeper hills, and you don't want to overheat a geared motor for very long at all.

So spending more money for a higher power system that can happily handle your weight and hills would actually save you money in the long run over spending less and then stressing an underpowered system.

 

[dogman dan]

Yep, big hills and a big boy calls for more than 500w. Bear in mind, many "500w" kits actually put out 1000w when you put a 48v battery on them.

You need a BPM in the slower RPM, or you need a Mac 12t or Direct drive in the slower RPM from EM3ev. Then run them on a 48v 15 ah battery, if you choose lifepo4. With a 20 amps controller, you will have 1200w, and that's enough power to get up hills up to 15% grade.

The idea is that the slow motor wastes less power into heat going slow up a hill than a fast motor will. Both will slow and waste power, but the slow motor wastes less power at 10 mph than the fast one.

Pedal your guts out if you slow below 10 mph, or the motor will melt on a long enough hill.

I personally like the DD motor, because if the hill is short, and I have a powerful battery, I can give it 3000w for a few min. That gets you up the shorter hills very nice. I do this with a 72v 40 amps controller. This gets me up 25% grades if they are less than a mile long.

 

[kriskros]

I have had both a bafang and a Puma[Mac].... the Mac is more powerfull and has MUCH better gears... get it from Cellman[a member] with his new gears... definitely recommend a 48v,20 amp for torque and range with your build andterrain..have fun and welcome to ES

 

[footloose]

Hi Obscuro, and welcome!

I googled Santa Cruz de Tenerife, used their satellite images to get an idea of terrain.
Looks a lot like where I live (San Mateo, in California).
Lots of hills, lots of stop-and-go riding.

I have a 10T MAC w/ 48V battery from EM3ev. It is ideal for my conditions, may be good for yours.

Dogman's suggestion of direct drive motor would (I think) be great for your hills, but maybe not so good for short blocks and lots of stop-and-go riding?

 

[d8veh]

Which motor you get depends on how fast you want to go and how hard you want to pedal. I think all the motors have changed the material that the gears are made of. All of them are very strong now, so you don't need to worry about them any more. If you're budget is limited, the Bafang BPM is OK, but the problem is to get one the right speed. Thhey do a full range, but BMSBattery only do 201 rpm and 328 RPM. . They're all strong climbers with a 36v battery and a 30 amp controller, and even better with a 48v battery. My favouirite batteries that are very light for their capacity and not very expensive are these two:
http://www.bmsbattery.com/36v/445-36v-15ah-lithium-ion-electric-bicycle-battery-pack.html
http://www.bmsbattery.com/48v/248-48v-10ah-lithium-ion-electric-bicycle-battery-pack.html

The 15aH one would be better with a 25 amp controller rather than the 30 amp one, otherwise get the 20aH one.

 

[Obscuro]

Hi,

Thanks to all for this quick and useful reply :lol:

I see than some people recommend me DD and others recommen me gears motor.

After read the replys, I think that the best solution for me is a MAC T10 with a 48V battery., and at least 15Ah Are this correct???????

This means that I need to forget the Bottle type battery like this: http://freegopower.en.alibaba.com/product/583851306-211848359/lithium_ion_48v_bottle_e_bike_battery_pack_in_water_bottle_battery_case.html and I need a big babettry in a bag.

I see the products in bmsbattery and EM3ev. I understand that is better a MAC motor from EM3ev than a Bafang from bmsbattery.

About the 48V15A battery, I think that is better to buy at BMSBATTERY, because is more cheaper than the 50V15A of EM3ev. I understand that the EM3ev quality is better, but for my first ebike "experiment" I can buy the cheappest battery from BMSBATTERY

Another thing is about the controller, d8veh say "The 15aH one would be better with a 25 amp controller rather than the 30 amp one" and in the EM3ev website say "6 fet; 12T - OK, 10T - OK, 8T - OK but consider the 9 fet. :::::: 9 fet; 12T - OK, 10T - OK, 8T - OK." What´s better for 48V15A?

These two routes are the most worrying for me:

https://www.google.es/maps/preview?authuser=0#!data=!4m23!3m22!1m5!1sCalle+Juan+Garc%C3%ADa+Alvarez%2C+38008+Santa+Cruz+de+Tenerife!2s0xc41ccf4dc16ae25%3A0x9abd7614fd5bab84!3m2!3d28.4676831!4d-16.2770843!1m5!1sCalle+del+Castillo%2C+Santa+Cruz+de+Tenerife!2s0xc41cc823dbff6f7%3A0x4db34acadd60a5cd!3m2!3d28.4673716!4d-16.2529405!2e2!3m8!1m3!1d8668!2d-16.2643125!3d28.462761!3m2!1i1680!2i949!4f13.1&fid=0

https://www.google.es/maps/preview?authuser=0#!data=!4m22!3m21!1m5!1sCalle+Juan+Garc%C3%ADa+Alvarez%2C+38008+Santa+Cruz+de+Tenerife!2s0xc41ccf4dc16ae25%3A0x9abd7614fd5bab84!3m2!3d28.4676831!4d-16.2770843!1m4!3m2!3d28.478444!4d-16.2436032!6e2!2e2!3m8!1m3!1d17336!2d-16.2597034!3d28.4667719!3m2!1i1680!2i949!4f13.1&fid=0

And probably this is the greatest hill of all the routes that I do in my city:

https://www.google.es/maps/preview?authuser=0#!data=!1m4!1m3!1d4334!2d-16.2760083!3d28.4648947!4m21!3m20!1m4!3m2!3d28.4655941!4d-16.2773513!6e2!1m4!3m2!3d28.464463!4d-16.2719625!6e2!2e2!3m8!1m3!1d17336!2d-16.2597034!3d28.4667719!3m2!1i1680!2i949!4f13.1&fid=0

Thanks again and sorry for my bad english, Alex aka Obscuro

 

[dogman dan]

Fortunately, most of the suggestions will work, but maybe not so great for you when trying to decide.

Mac 10 t, 48v 15 ah battery, and a 20-25 amps controller should work well. You might be able to get the 9 fet controller but have them program it for less than 30 amps.

I prefer the direct drive motors for several reasons, but for big hills you want the slower windings in the dd motors.

1 I always have the motor on, so I don't care about freewheeling
2 I always have really hot dry weather, so I need the best cooling I can get. That's a dd
3 If I want to, I can get away with running 3000w into the cheap dd motors.
4 dd motors such as the one at EM3ev are less expensive to buy, and when I do have a problem, easy to fix.

The gear motors have some advantages,
1 climb hills same as a slow dd, but with a higher top speed on the flat
2 they freewheel, if you really like pedaling a 70 pound bike.
3 smaller, so better if you are trying to hide the motor.
4 still able to take up to 1500w easy if you get the larger ones, which is enough to climb most steep hills.

Matching the battery to the controller is a matter of getting a battery that can discharge at the max rate of the controller without damage. Then, ideally you will do most of your riding at a less than max rate.

For example, find out what the c rate of the battery is. Many are 2-3c, and some are more. Whatever that rate is, figure that you want to use it at a lesser rate.

A 10 ah battery at 1c is 10 amps, A 10 ah battery at 2c is 20 amps. A 15 ah battery at 2c can do 30 amps.

So if your bms battery is said to be able to do 3c, start by cutting that in half. 15 ah at 3c, 45 amps. divide 45 amps by two for a rate the battery might really be able to stand, and you get 22.5 amps.

22.5 amps is what you should aim for when selecting a controller. So 20-25 amps controller is good for a battery such as that.

Very often, they really don't say what the c rate is. They just say, max this, max continuous that, leaving you unsure. But most batteries sold nowdays are in the 2-3c rate ballpark, so a rule of thumb can be used.

20-25 amps controller, get a 15 ah battery if possible, and not a 10. Besides you get more range that way.

BUT, and this is very important, It's very hard to carry 48v 20 ah on a bike. 48v 15 works ok.

Some batteries have higher c rates. The big blue headway cells are about 5c, so a 10 ah pack of them can be ok.

 

[Obscuro]

Hi dogman,

Thanks for the explanations.

About the DD motor, the problem is that are bigger.

As you know, here we can´t use motors with more of 250W and a DD appears powerful.

I need that the motor appears less powerful, and a policeman probably can pay attention on a DD motor, but a gear motor can pass more unnoticed, like a standard rent-ebike :lol:

This is the main reason because I think in gear motors.

Thanks, Alex.

 

[wesnewell]

Welcome to ES****Do this before your first post or now (it's retroactive)*****
Please go to the User Control Panel, select Profile, and then enter your city, state/province, and country into the Location field (country minimum) and save it. This will help people help you. Example: Santa Cruz, Spain (or Espana) . Without knowing what country you are in it's hard to make any recommendations and you will waste your time and others. Thank you.

Get a 500-1000W DD motor and put a 250W sticker on it. They do make 250W DD motors that are the same size as the 1000W DD motors. I just don't like the idea of having to replace gears and/or clutches in a geared motor, and I like regen braking.

 

[RoadWrinkle]

Ya, as far as stealth goes, you are right that DD hubs are larger and heavier than geared, but the 1000w geared motor and high Ah battery you will need for your situation will not be very stealthy anyway. If you rear rack mount your battery and run a rear hub, you can disguise them with a large set of pannier bags, but then you will have an enormous rear weight bias and the ride will suffer. Perhaps a sticker that would fool cops is a good idea as I am guessing most are not up on the technical specs of hubmotors, but won't stop you from getting pulled over so they can inspect it, especially of you are going over 25MPH at the time.

 

[Obscuro]

After the last replies, now I need to read about DD motors brands and models.

For my case, what´re a good model of DD? Considering that I can´t pay a lot of money in a SUPER-BATTERY :?

Recomendantions of the experts in DD motors, please

Wesnewell, I have the firts piece of my ebike, I have the 250W sticker :lol:

 

[d8veh]

For stealthiness, you need a bike like this, which nobody notices is electric. It will climb very steep hills (30%) with a bit of pedalling. Speed is about 35 km/h All the electric parts came from BMSBattery: 20aH shrinktube battery; 500w Bafanng CST motor; 30 amp KU123 controller. Cost about 600 Euros including shipping. The CST motor has the same torque as the BPM, but it's speed is 270 rpm, and it has the spline for cassette gears. The MAC motor can handle a little bit more torque.

 

[wesnewell]

I'd search ebay for something like this that you can order in Spain.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rear-Wheel-Electric-Bicycle-Conversion-Kit-24V-36V-48V-250W-500W-700W-800W-1000W-/290754592384

 

[mattrb]

Spell check is built into Chrome and Firefox. You don't need an English degree for that to work.

 

[tomtom123]

For stealthiness, you need a bike like this, which nobody notices is electric. It will climb very steep hills (30%) with a bit of pedalling. Speed is about 35 km/h All the electric parts came from BMSBattery: 20aH shrinktube battery; 500w Bafanng CST motor; 30 amp KU123 controller. Cost about 600 Euros including shipping. The CST motor has the same torque as the BPM, but it's speed is 270 rpm, and it has the spline for cassette gears. The MAC motor can handle a little bit more torque.

i got 3 questions

1) Where did you put the controller? it's inside the bag?
2) where do i get bag that locks into the rear rack like dat?
3) what's the total weight of the bike?

 

[Obscuro]

Hi,

Wesnewell thanks for the link. I´m looking for some similars motors in spanish shops and in some internet stores (like EM3ev)

d8veh, i have the same quetions that tomtom123 and I need to say that your bike is awesome!!!!!!

d8veh, your recommendation is a Bafang or a MAC with a 48v15ah or 48v20ah?

dogman, you´re a Lipo enthusiast, for a firts ebike do you think that I need to "experiment" with Lipo or I use only standard lithium batteries?

Thanks, Obscuro.

 

[dogman dan]

I tend to recommend lipo to those who have previous experience with it, or have experience with ebikes. Rarely do I recommend it to noobs, unless something about their needs makes that the best solution.

Now that you mention stealth, a Mac or other rear gearmotor is very likely your best solution. Pair it with a fairly small battery that can go on the rack and not stick out. Like the bike in those pictures D8veh posted. 48v 15 ah max. Perhaps a limn pack because they are smaller.

That way you can pretty easily be taken for a regular bike. A triangle bag is very nice, but also very obviously an e bike. Lots of rear rack bags will fit a battery that size. In my climate, I can't hide a controller. But if you get the smaller ones, they can be blended into the box or bag on the rack pretty good and still get cooling.

 

[d8veh]

i got 3 questions

1) Where did you put the controller? it's inside the bag?
2) where do i get bag that locks into the rear rack like dat?
3) what's the total weight of the bike?

The controller is in the bag. It doesn't over-heat.
The bag is for football boots from a sports shop. It costs about £5 ($8) like this one:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OFFICIAL-CHELSEA-FC-FOOTBALL-CLUB-CREST-BOOT-SHOE-BAG-GYM-RRP-9-99-/290861686316?pt=UK_Sporting_Goods_Sports_Clothing_LE&hash=item43b8b51e2c
The coloured side is downwards. You cut a piece of plywood exactly the shape of the bottom of the bag, put it inside and bolt through the rack. There's a zip around the coloured side, which is downwards, so you can fold back the main part of the bag to install your battery, the controller, charge socket and switch onto the plywood. when everything is installed, you fold back the bag and zip it up. Fix the zip end to the rack with a zip-tie so no-one can open the zip or see what's inside. Sure they can cut it with tools, but i often leave mine outside the supermarket and pubs, and I never had a problem. Here's how to make a rack as well:
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/14308-how-make-rack-battery.html

The bike weighs about 23 kg with everything installed.
Here's another one I did the same way for my GNG Gen2 bike:

 

[Obscuro]

Thanks for all the info dogman. My climate is hot, too: http://www.accuweather.com/es/es/santa-cruz-de-tenerife/303003/october-weather/303003?monyr=10/1/2013

After I read, I think that my climate is similiar to Las Cruces. In this clmate, can I have problems with something like 6 FET IRFB3077 INFINEON CONTROLLER or 9 FET IRFB3077 INFINEON CONTROLLER if I put in a case?

d8veh, an awesome work and a great tutorial 8)