NCA vs NCM

[flathill]

Clearly these are the two leading chems

NCM can actually have a slight performance edge over NCA. I was speaking to a battery engineer at Tesla and the real reason they went with NCA (aluminum) is calendar life. The aluminum does not ever dissolve. The dirty secret: manganese in NCM cells will always dissolve into the electrolyte. You can slow the process with surface treatments but it is always happening. NCA cells will capacity fade to 70-80% and then stabilize with very gradual loss thereafter. The NCA cells Tesla uses should be good for 15+ years in the car and then they can be recycled into grid/home storage (they actually predict capacity loss will not be that great but the resistance growth will start to dominate). The NCA cells should be useful for 40 years total if kept at around 30C!

There is tons of aging data already out there from SAFT NCA cells used in NASA satellites as far back as 2001. NASA has recommended only NCA chem in long-life space missions (or terrestrial applications). Tesla is not taking any chances. NCM is actually the bigger unknown but preliminary data is predicting 8-10 years of useful life due to dissolution of manganese.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Li-NCA is looking very good to me, but...I can buy Li-NCM triangle pack from cell_man right now.

I'm sure there are places where Li-NCA is being advertised...I just don't want to be the guinea pig, so...I'm going to wait for others with more disposable cash than me to tread into those murky waters first to see how deep it is.

 

[Punx0r]

Interesting

Are NCA cells available now? Pouches? 18650s?

 

[John in CR]

It's interesting for sure but you can't ignore the safety factor. There have been a lot more Leafs sold and not a single fire, but plenty of crashes.

 

[nuleeconverted]

From this URL:
http://www.samsungsdi.com/battery/cylindrical-rechargeable-battery.jsp
The part number key below the table of cells gives cathode material "N" as NCA. The "Remarks" column on table far right gives ICR prefix as NCM. Cellman is now selling other cell types, including the NCA chemistry (INR prefix). See for example the choices given in his 50V11.7AH & 16.5 AH triangle pack: http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=158

Forty years for a pack! Maybe the PCM (Phase Change Material) is really useful after all.

 

[Punx0r]

If we are realistic 30 or 40 years for a pack on an EV is proabably pointless. Improvements in battery technology would mean you'd want to upgrade before then anyway (for more range, less size/weight).

 

[cwah]

Ok, I have to get an NCA battery!

 

[Arbol]

I subscribe to this thread.

 

[flathill]

Told ya so

http://qz.com/234345/the-most-promising-electric-car-lithium-ion-battery-needs-saving/

And GM, Nissan, BMW, Zero, Brammo, and many more all fell for the NCM con
(Mee too I bought some NMC cells a few years ago)

Planned obsolesence was all part of the plan
with manganese that will always dissolve into the electrolyte

You really think GM wants batteries to last 30 years? They were in bed with Argonne. They all knew anout NCA, but the materials are a few cents more per 18650. When you make them for 77 cents a pop...the bean counters

Tesla is going to be buying recycled aluminum for 80 cents a pound. Each 18650 weighs 50 grams. The new oval cells weigh

See electric cars wont work. You have to junk the car after 8 years because it is not worth a new battery

The current life expectancy of a car is 13.3 years
That is the new engineering standard
And why many new cars suck

Tesla for the win. Use what the Military (Saft) uses people! NCA! Duh! They have NCA cells over 20 years old with almost no calendar fade!


-----
But in recent weeks, researchers working on the problem have gone public with a conclusion that the electrode, invented contemporaneously here at Dalhousie University and at Argonne National Laboratory outside Chicago, won’t realize the hopes to bring alive a mass-market electric-car age. They say the problem is at the heart of the physics of the electrode, an amalgam of nickel, cobalt and manganese (NMC) that achieves remarkable capacity after a jolt of unusually high voltage, and does not seem fixable.

https://archive.org/details/PlannedObsolescenceDocumentary

 

[flathill]

,

 

[flathill]

The 1st International Conference on Advanced Lithium Batteries for Automotive Applications is organized by Khalil Amine of the Battery Department in ------->>>>Argonne's Chemical Sciences and Engineering Division and Tien Duong of DOE. This meeting is sponsored by Keystone level sponsor *******ExxonMobil Chemica*********

Hahha down the wrong path again they led us
Trying to stall the revolution
Just like how GM sold Ovonics to Chevron

The military already has 5.1V NCA made by Quallion

Surprised?

“Fade appears to be a fundamental property of this material,” Tony Burrell, director of the battery department at Argonne, told the conference. “It is like being surprised that wood combusts with oxygen.”

 

[flathill]

Envia “was an illusion,” alleges Michael Pak, the plaintiff in an IP theft suit against Kumar. “While the illusion is there, you can sell the company and run away. But illusion doesn’t last forever.”

About a year later, Kumar resigned. As justification, Pak said in an interview, Kumar cited personal differences with him. The 2007 departure was a shock for NanoeXa, which was left “in chaos,” Pak said. “Without any notice, my main engineering guy left. I was counting on him a lot.” Kumar gave assurances that he would not compete with NanoeXa using NMC technology, but instead would seek employment “in another company,” Pak said.
+
But Kumar and a NanoeXa colleague, Mike Sinkula, had in fact decided to form their own lithium-ion battery startup. They describe holing up immediately at Palo Alto Library, where they began to make cellphone calls, send emails and put together a slide deck to raise about $3 million in venture capital to fund a team that would produce a prototype. The basis of their pitch was a fresh NMC term sheet that Kumar had negotiated with Argonne. Kumar and Sinkula would not say so publicly for awhile, but they intended to make a go using the same technology as NanoeXa and in pursuit of the same market—electric automobiles.

http://qz.com/158373/envia-the-mysterious-story-of-the-battery-startup-that-promised-gm-a-200-mile-electric-car/#/

TOTAL FRAUD:

Envia begins to unravel

Kapadia then discovered the ARPA-E cell used anode material bought in from Japanese firm Shin-Etsu, not disclosed to customers and passed off as Envia's own . Subsequently, GM turned out not to care that much--provided the performance was okay. The main trouble was that it wasn't--and Kumar responded by saying the timeframe given wasn't realistic.