Need help recelling my bike battery.

[Synthman]

I have a Phylion XH370-10J 36v 10ah battery that is 5 years old. It's range is now 9 miles and it cuts out under load sometimes. I bought another 36v 10ah battery last week to replace it with.

The way the current Phylion one is wired up in the case is confusing me.





There are two negative wires, a black one for discharge socket and orange for the charge socket. There is only one red live wire emerging from the battery which goes a fuse then splits off to the discharge socket and the charge socket. The bike allegedly has regenerative braking and it also has a charge socket on the bike which I never use.

The battery pack I want to replace it with has 4 wires emerging. Two of them are thick red and black wires for discharge, and the other two are thinner pink and orange wires for charging, the orange is negative.

I don't know how to connect it up. I'm not good at soldering and I need quite a few practice runs. I thought I could just disconnect the bullet connectors on the old battery and connect the new battery, but they are stuck and I don't want to force them yet. And I don't know what to do about the extra wire.

Should I connect the two thicker ones directly to the discharge socket, and the thinner ones to the charge socket? Would this cause problems if the battery tries to charge through the discharge port when regenerating downhill or if the charge socket on the bike is used instead of the battery? Or do I need to hook it up the way the old battery is in there now, with the live discharge also connected to the charge socket?

 

[dnmun]

where is the BMS? is this lipo or lifepo4? can you put the battery on the charger and measure the cell voltages while it is balancing now?

those split bullet type connectors are usually soldered together.

 

[d8veh]

Firstly, your soldering: Those wires aren't too big, so, most soldering irons should be able to do it. Start with a small blob of solder on the iron, which helps transfer the heat; heat up the wires and add solder until they're saturated; heat up the bullet connector and add a bit of solder where the wire will join, making sure that you leave the soldering iron touching it until the solder wets the surface, i'e. it doesn't sit as a moveable blob on it; bring the the wire to the connector and use the iron to re-melt the solder until both are properly joined, and try to keep the parts still while it cools and sets. If you move the parts and don't get a very good joint, add some more solder to re-melt it because the flux in the solder helps it join together. It's best to hold the bullet in a clamp of some sort while soldering it, abd be careful holding the wire because the heat travels up it, so don't hold it too close to the end -about 4cm should be OK.

Once you have the connectors on the battery, I'd remove the charge socket and discharge socket from the old battery case, then connect them to the new battery. Wrap the battery in some foam and stuff it down the hole leaving the connectors at the top. I'm guessing that the new battery has a BMS hidden under the wrapping, so the connection is straight forward - you only have to make sure that the two wires on each connector are the right way round. Check and double check. Don't worry about the fact that the other battery had a split positive wire instead of 4 separate wires. It only depends on what type of BMS it has. In theory you can charge and discharge through the main power wires. Often, the charge socket has a separate lower value fuse on it to protect the battery and its BMS from over-charging, but if you use your normal charger, there should be no problem, but that brings me to another thought: You said that you have regen. It could be possible to blow the BMS in the new battery if it's not designed for it, or overcharge (rate of charge) the battery if you go down long steep hills. Perhaps somebody else could advise on that. It might be better to disable regen on the controller if you can. You don't get much from it anyway.

 

[Synthman]

The regen doesn't seem to have any effect on slowing the bike at all, but it does seem to put some charge back into the battery. As far as I know riding a fully charged bike with regen downhill can damage the battery or BMS, it won't be an issue for me because I don't live at the top of any hills, I'd have to go up them first using some of the battery charge.

As for the connectors, the battery is indeed wrapped so I can't see the BMS. The current pack is protected by two fuses, a 5a blade fuse, and a smaller fuse on the charge circit which is mounted on the case. I bypassed the latter ages ago because the wires broke off, but I want to repair them when I install the new pack.

I didn't realise those bullet connectors were soldered together. I don't really like them, there's evidence of overheating on one of the connectors, the plastic sheath thing looks burned. I only wanted to use them because there are bullet connectors on the old battery and the new one and I thought it would be simple to disconnect and reconnect them. I wish the charge and discharge connectors had screw terminals. I know where the wires should be going but I can't get them there. Ideally I'd want some sort of quick release connector in there so it would be easy to to swap battery packs around. I'm going to buy some solder and try having a go very soon.

Edit: I had another look and I managed to separate a bullet connector. They match the ones on the new battery. All I need to do is disconnect that split live and attach one bullet plug on the charging side and then I can easily disconnect the old battery and put the new one in. I just need to go to Maplin tomorrow and buy the connectors and solder.

 

[dnmun]

you don't have to reuse the connectors, you could just solder the wires. if you don't have some 60/40 solder you may not be able to buy it in the stores now.

why not just put the battery on the charger and measure the cell voltages while you have it open like that? then we can get an idea of what is wrong with the old one.

that battery is 10S it appears, so it would help to know what the voltage really is on the charger and on the cells. i don't think it is lifepo4 if it is labeled 36V and only 10S long.

 

[Synthman]

I had to reassemble the battery so I could use it, but the charge voltage is 42, and fully charged the battery measures 41.9v according to my multimeter. It becomes unusable when the pack voltage goes below 37v. When I have it open I'll measure the cells.

 

[999zip999]

5yr's that a good number. I quess you're happy with it ?

 

[Synthman]

5yr's that a good number. I quess you're happy with it ?

The dealer I bought my bike from supplied a battery that was nearly 30 months old, it never gave satisfactory range but it has done 413 charges in the 2.5 years I've used it.

 

[dnmun]

it is 10S of LiMn2O4 and if you can find the cell with the high internal resistance you can find a replacement cell pretty easily.

it should show up on the charger.

 

[999zip999]

Like dnunm said measure the cells under charge and report back. You can tape the end of the mm probe so just the tip is showing. And have a drink to keep you from shakiing. Make a list.

 

[Synthman]

Like dnunm said measure the cells under charge and report back. You can tape the end of the mm probe so just the tip is showing. And have a drink to keep you from shakiing. Make a list.

If I had a drink I know I would be launching the pack around the room! Had a smoke instead and after the battery charged I measured the cells, starting from the end that has the BMS attached and ending at where the live wire emerge from the pack.

1: 4.16v
2: 4.14v
3: 4.16v
4: 4.17v
5: 4.18v

6: 4.17v
7: 4.17v
8: 4.18v
9: 4.17v
10: 4.12v

I suspect that #10 is weaker than the others. I'm not changing it though the battery is too old. I also removed the pack and attempted to install the new one, I will test it on the bike tomorrow.

 

[Jackolantern]

I have just purchased a bike 2nd hand, they guy who sold is said the battery was broken. I tried charging it and it charged, but the low battery light comes on on the bike. I measured it, 40.9V so i took it apart, same as your battery, 2x5 cells arranged in series. Same boards on top of the cells, and a bms board at the top of the battery. I measured all the cells and they are all up around 4.3-4.4v and one is 0v. the 0v one is a bit bulged, the rest look okay, but they must be damageg from being over charged. Has anyone got one of these cells so I can run the pack? The date on the bms board is 06-12-11 only i dont know if that makes the battery one year old, or six.

If I cannot get a new cell, is it possible to use this bms for other cells?

THanks.

 

[docnjoj]

I'm not completely sure but Justin at ebikes.ca may have replacement cells for that battery. It looks like the E-Z ones he sells and is the same chemistry. Where are you located so help can know what to recommend?
otherDoc

 

[dnmun]

we have no pictures of the BMS, so there is no way to say how it works, but it shoulda shut off the charging when the one cell dropped so low and if it allowed the cells to reach 4.5V+ as implied by the 40.9V you measured.

if you take the battery apart and show good pictures close up enuff, then maybe there will be some info on one of the cells to use to find a replacement.

these cells are common enuff, should be a source somewhere in shenzen. actually the other thread shows a BMS battery licomno4 pack which uses what must be identical cells.

http://www.bmsbattery.com/36v/445-36v-15ah-lithium-ion-electric-bicycle-battery-pack.html

 

[Jackolantern]

Yeah, the rest of the cells were indeed higher, but once i reattached the balancinf boards they dropped back down, i think the boards on top of the batteries are bleeding the extra voltage off. there is a wire going to each and back to the bms board on top so i don't understand why it kept charging. I live in the netherlands, so the canadian suppliers probably aren't going to work, I have of course been all over the bmsbattery website, not seeing what you are trying to get at with that link.

I'll try attaching fotos.

The outer shell has a sticker on it with this information XH370-10J DC37.0V Phylion Battery SN:JIJCIA100749

BMS on the top has this text on the circuit board. : BHGL08-A10 -30 06.12.11

 

[dnmun]

ask this guy if he can get you a replacement cell: http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110940057577

or bid on this one relisted: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BATTERY-for-ELECTRIC-BIKE-BATTERY-XH370-10J-SWA-DC37-0V-Phylion-Battery-/281038456623?pt=US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item416f32872f

and she may know more too

and here is the factory manual and it has the email and telephone listing for the factory so you can contact them directly. make your email addressed to sales and mention that you are working to fix it and your progress is being followed by a large number of ebike users who want to see if the factory can help them if they buy one of these batteries:

http://www.thegreensceneev.com/Green-Scene-battery-manual.html

you can go through this thread on the pedelecs forum and see if anyone has a battery they are parting out by asking the guys who complained about how their battery is dead. maybe they will sell you some of the cells from their old battery: http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/technical/2383-long-term-test-outcome-ezee-battery-2.html

and it may be that justin at ebikes.ca has some replacement cells

 

[Jackolantern]

I have bids running on the local version ebay, like I said I am in Europe, so buying from the american ebay would be complicated and expensive, I have already sent an inquiry to the factory, phylion@phylionbattery.com. that is an older document I think, I had found that one on google as well though. I have sent inquiries to the local eike shops around here already too. I have found someone with a broken one, asked if he would part with it for cheap, and I found someone wiht a working used one, also asked him if he would part with it for cheap, still waiting on that though. Last one that went up around here was used and working for €400 and thats a load of cash in any currency for a used battery.

What about using this bms for other cells? still have a huge box of old laptop batteries and I can get lots more of those for free.

 

[NeilP]

Any news? did you get the cells?
I am in Jersey (UK) and need 7 of them too

Have e-mailed Justin, phylion and also put a post on the Pedelec.co.uk website