Negotiating changes to European Regulation of LEVs
- Thread starter Miles
- Start date
dnmun
1 PW
why even have restrictions? just a framework to levy taxes and user fees?
what we need world wide is EV/bike friendly major arterials. streets and 4 lanes with a restricted(in speed by larger vehicles if the lane is occupied by an EV, but otherwise allow that lane the normal minimum maximum) lane to allow NEV class of vehicle to go 45mph, and ebikes and elmoto conversions power and batteyr limitations like 2kW for the motor controller on a bike and 3kWh pack and maybe 5kW on an elmoto, 12kWh capacity. weights 50kg and 200kg?
the world has so far to go to even understand they have to change and fast. that once the artic melting sets off an even larger implosion of climatic events which will be even harder to overcome under the duress of energy use restrictions when they finally are implemented 40 years too late. i know it was over 40 years ago i got to be aware, and even now i can see people in denial, don't have a clue. chinese are doing it faster than we are now. the new japanese guvment is gonna make electric a common japanese word and those designs will come to the states.
i saw and touched my first ZENN the other day. they really are just the right proportions, who fuckin cares about the imaginary supercapacitor boondoggle, that thing will work with lifepo4, i can see it already. well built body too, by body by french small car builder mirocar, the MC2 longer wheelbase with 72V. he pulled away from me when i chased him in my old honda, pulling about 12kW, about 860-900lbs with him in it i estimate, for those of you who are in touch with the seat of your pants accleration i'm talking. really nice car. he has a datalogger so hope to have info on it too eventually.
what we need world wide is EV/bike friendly major arterials. streets and 4 lanes with a restricted(in speed by larger vehicles if the lane is occupied by an EV, but otherwise allow that lane the normal minimum maximum) lane to allow NEV class of vehicle to go 45mph, and ebikes and elmoto conversions power and batteyr limitations like 2kW for the motor controller on a bike and 3kWh pack and maybe 5kW on an elmoto, 12kWh capacity. weights 50kg and 200kg?
the world has so far to go to even understand they have to change and fast. that once the artic melting sets off an even larger implosion of climatic events which will be even harder to overcome under the duress of energy use restrictions when they finally are implemented 40 years too late. i know it was over 40 years ago i got to be aware, and even now i can see people in denial, don't have a clue. chinese are doing it faster than we are now. the new japanese guvment is gonna make electric a common japanese word and those designs will come to the states.
i saw and touched my first ZENN the other day. they really are just the right proportions, who fuckin cares about the imaginary supercapacitor boondoggle, that thing will work with lifepo4, i can see it already. well built body too, by body by french small car builder mirocar, the MC2 longer wheelbase with 72V. he pulled away from me when i chased him in my old honda, pulling about 12kW, about 860-900lbs with him in it i estimate, for those of you who are in touch with the seat of your pants accleration i'm talking. really nice car. he has a datalogger so hope to have info on it too eventually.
John in CR
100 TW
I doubt most users will have any problem with appropriate fees and taxes as long as the proceeds go toward better infrastructure to support transport via light EV.
Also, trying to drag what may (arguably) or may not (also arguably) happen with polar ice caps into the discussion will offer no meaningful support. The simple fact is that much of the population can meet a majority of of their travel needs via light EV, which is more economical and more sustainable that what currently exists. The real selling point to those in charge will be to help them understand how the inevitable fundamental change in transportation that's coming will be better for all, and will come with a far lower government outlay, and countries which welcome and encourage this change will thrive prosper compared to those left behind because they did their best to stifle change. It's a simple fact that the way people move from one place to another will change dramatically over the next two decades, so they need to embrace it or get voted out.
John
Also, trying to drag what may (arguably) or may not (also arguably) happen with polar ice caps into the discussion will offer no meaningful support. The simple fact is that much of the population can meet a majority of of their travel needs via light EV, which is more economical and more sustainable that what currently exists. The real selling point to those in charge will be to help them understand how the inevitable fundamental change in transportation that's coming will be better for all, and will come with a far lower government outlay, and countries which welcome and encourage this change will thrive prosper compared to those left behind because they did their best to stifle change. It's a simple fact that the way people move from one place to another will change dramatically over the next two decades, so they need to embrace it or get voted out.
John
paultrafalgar
10 kW
Very encouraging! Let's hope the can act faster than the usual snails pace and with the planets/peoples interests at heart and not that of big business/oil moguls.Miles said:
Don't count on it. The biggest lobby in Brussels is the one of the car industry by far. They even sell cars with 25% discount to Euro-parliamentarians. Even an ex rally driver is a Euro-parliamentarian. Also the German car lobby is 80% of the car lobby is Brussels. But I hope they will change the legislation for e-bikes because way things are now is clearly designed to hold them off. In Holland where I live electric bikes are marketed as "old people bikes" just for some electric assistance. And that's all the current legislation permits.
@John in CR I would have a big problem with appropriate fees and taxes on bikes and LEV's because this will not encourage people to make the change to such vehicles. And knowing that in Holland (and many other EU countries) only 11% of car taxes and fees go to infrastructure including our wonderful bike paths and all, I do not see the need for even more money grabbing by our governments.
@John in CR I would have a big problem with appropriate fees and taxes on bikes and LEV's because this will not encourage people to make the change to such vehicles. And knowing that in Holland (and many other EU countries) only 11% of car taxes and fees go to infrastructure including our wonderful bike paths and all, I do not see the need for even more money grabbing by our governments.
These are the changes proposed:
[Ref: http://www.etra-eu.com/newsitem.asp?type=3&id=7933772]
Proposals
1)As for cycles with pedal assistance excluded from the scope of Directive 2002/24/EC:
On behalf of the industry, ETRA proposes to change the current definition, which is as follows:
“cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kilowatts, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling.â€Â
Into the following new definition
“cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with one or more auxiliary electric motors having a combined maximum continuous rated power of 0.50 kilowatts, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling. Such cycles shall not be considered motor vehicles.â€Â
Motivation:
Addition of “one or more†in order to facilitate the development of vehicles with more than one motor. This provision opens a lot more technical possibilities, for instance cargo/transport vehicles or three-wheelers for physically impaired with a small motor providing a very high torque for the riding off phase and a main motor to assist the pedalling.
Addition of “combinedâ€Â: is the logical result of adding the provision “one or moreâ€Â
Increase of the maximum continuous rated power from 0.25 to 0.50 kilowatts: as explained above, pedal assisted bicycles are now appealing to a much broader and more varied public throughout Europe. This development however shows that 0.25 kilowatts is not always sufficient to produce comfortable and safe electric bicycles that perform at the required level. The current power limit proves to be insufficient, for instance in hilly and mountainous areas, for people suffering from obesity, for three-wheelers developed for physically impaired people, for vehicles developed to transport cargo, … The increase of the power will have no negative effect on the safety of the currently best-selling bicycles because in that instance safety is mainly linked to the speed, for which this proposal holds no change. For cycles used in the above-mentioned conditions, the increase of power will have a positive effect on the safety because it will provide the cyclists far more reliability. Since the cyclist can rely on a cycle that in all conditions will perform at the required level, he will also enjoy more safety and comfort.
The Chairman of CEN TC333 “Cyclesâ€Â, Mr Siegfried Neuberger has attended the meetings at which these proposals were developed. Together with the industry, he confirmed that a CEN standard for excluded pedal assisted bicycles with a maximum continuous rated power of 0.50 kilowatts can effectively provide the required level of product safety. For that purpose, the current standard EN 15194 could be reviewed and adapted to the new requirement in the type-approval legislation.
Deletion of “progressively reduced and finallyâ€Â: the industry unanimously agrees that this requirement has no use. Since the requirement is not further specified, the industry currently does not know how to comply with it. The characteristic line of the motor management is a complex combination of pedalling frequency, actual speed and pedalling power. The essential requirement in the definition to ensure safe use of the vehicle is that the motor is cut off at 25 km/h. The requirement of progressive reduction has no bearing whatsoever on the safe use of the vehicle. This is the reason why we propose to delete the above-mentioned words.
Addition of “such cycles shall not be considered motor vehiclesâ€Â: this provision should result in absolute clarity as to which vehicles are subject to type-approval and which are not. Today, at least one member state has introduced additional requirements for excluded pedal assisted cycles, which have resulted in a legal vacuum. This can be prevented by means of the proposed addition.
2)As for cycles with pedal assistance not excluded from the scope of Directive 2002/24/EC:
On behalf of the industry, ETRA proposes the introduction of a new category
as a subdivision of the current category L “mopedsâ€Â. This new category would be defined as follows:
“Cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with one or more auxiliary electric motors having a combined maximum continuous rated power not exceeding 1 kilowatts, of which the output is cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 45 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling.â€Â
Motivation:
A growing number of consumers show an interest in pedal assisted cycles with higher performances to replace the car for commuting, for utilitarian purposes (for instance pedalled taxis), for sportive use (for instance pedal assisted mountain bikes), etc. The industry believes that a separate category for these vehicles in combination with an appropriate type-approval will allow this market to achieve its full potential. It will facilitate the development of the products as well as putting them in the market. This category will provide legal certainty, whereas improved efficiencies will bring about a reduction of type-approval costs.
For this category the industry is prepared and ready to define the components and characteristics that will need to be submitted to type-approval as well as to develop the testing procedures for those components and characteristics.
3)As for cycles and low-performance mopeds with an electric motor:
Low-performance mopeds are currently defined by means of a note to Annex I. The definition is as follows:
“Low-performance mopeds, i.e. mopeds with pedals, with an auxiliary engine of power not exceeding 1 kW and a maximum design speed not exceeding 25 km/hâ€Â
On behalf of the industry, ETRA proposes the introduction of a new category as a subdivision of the current category L “Mopedsâ€Â. This category would be defined as follows:
“Cycles and mopeds with one or more electric motors of combined power not exceeding 1 kW and a maximum design speed not exceeding 25 km/h.â€Â
Motivation:
A booming market stimulates technical development and product innovation. Quite a number of completely new vehicles cannot be classified under the current legislation, because that still pertains to the traditional mopeds. In Annex 2 are images of some of these vehicles. The market introduction of these vehicles is severely obstructed by the legal void.
The industry believes that a separate category for these vehicles in combination with an appropriate type-approval will allow this market to achieve its full potential. It will facilitate the development of the products as well as putting them in the market. This category will provide legal certainty, whereas improved efficiencies will bring about a reduction of type-approval costs.
At the same time, this category will cover all cycles equipped with an auxiliary electric motor that can propel the vehicle by itself.
For this category the industry is prepared to define the components and characteristics that will need to be submitted to type-approval as well as to develop the testing procedures for those components and characteristics.
[Ref: http://www.etra-eu.com/newsitem.asp?type=3&id=7933772]
Proposals
1)As for cycles with pedal assistance excluded from the scope of Directive 2002/24/EC:
On behalf of the industry, ETRA proposes to change the current definition, which is as follows:
“cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kilowatts, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling.â€Â
Into the following new definition
“cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with one or more auxiliary electric motors having a combined maximum continuous rated power of 0.50 kilowatts, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling. Such cycles shall not be considered motor vehicles.â€Â
Motivation:
Addition of “one or more†in order to facilitate the development of vehicles with more than one motor. This provision opens a lot more technical possibilities, for instance cargo/transport vehicles or three-wheelers for physically impaired with a small motor providing a very high torque for the riding off phase and a main motor to assist the pedalling.
Addition of “combinedâ€Â: is the logical result of adding the provision “one or moreâ€Â
Increase of the maximum continuous rated power from 0.25 to 0.50 kilowatts: as explained above, pedal assisted bicycles are now appealing to a much broader and more varied public throughout Europe. This development however shows that 0.25 kilowatts is not always sufficient to produce comfortable and safe electric bicycles that perform at the required level. The current power limit proves to be insufficient, for instance in hilly and mountainous areas, for people suffering from obesity, for three-wheelers developed for physically impaired people, for vehicles developed to transport cargo, … The increase of the power will have no negative effect on the safety of the currently best-selling bicycles because in that instance safety is mainly linked to the speed, for which this proposal holds no change. For cycles used in the above-mentioned conditions, the increase of power will have a positive effect on the safety because it will provide the cyclists far more reliability. Since the cyclist can rely on a cycle that in all conditions will perform at the required level, he will also enjoy more safety and comfort.
The Chairman of CEN TC333 “Cyclesâ€Â, Mr Siegfried Neuberger has attended the meetings at which these proposals were developed. Together with the industry, he confirmed that a CEN standard for excluded pedal assisted bicycles with a maximum continuous rated power of 0.50 kilowatts can effectively provide the required level of product safety. For that purpose, the current standard EN 15194 could be reviewed and adapted to the new requirement in the type-approval legislation.
Deletion of “progressively reduced and finallyâ€Â: the industry unanimously agrees that this requirement has no use. Since the requirement is not further specified, the industry currently does not know how to comply with it. The characteristic line of the motor management is a complex combination of pedalling frequency, actual speed and pedalling power. The essential requirement in the definition to ensure safe use of the vehicle is that the motor is cut off at 25 km/h. The requirement of progressive reduction has no bearing whatsoever on the safe use of the vehicle. This is the reason why we propose to delete the above-mentioned words.
Addition of “such cycles shall not be considered motor vehiclesâ€Â: this provision should result in absolute clarity as to which vehicles are subject to type-approval and which are not. Today, at least one member state has introduced additional requirements for excluded pedal assisted cycles, which have resulted in a legal vacuum. This can be prevented by means of the proposed addition.
2)As for cycles with pedal assistance not excluded from the scope of Directive 2002/24/EC:
On behalf of the industry, ETRA proposes the introduction of a new category
as a subdivision of the current category L “mopedsâ€Â. This new category would be defined as follows:
“Cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with one or more auxiliary electric motors having a combined maximum continuous rated power not exceeding 1 kilowatts, of which the output is cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 45 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling.â€Â
Motivation:
A growing number of consumers show an interest in pedal assisted cycles with higher performances to replace the car for commuting, for utilitarian purposes (for instance pedalled taxis), for sportive use (for instance pedal assisted mountain bikes), etc. The industry believes that a separate category for these vehicles in combination with an appropriate type-approval will allow this market to achieve its full potential. It will facilitate the development of the products as well as putting them in the market. This category will provide legal certainty, whereas improved efficiencies will bring about a reduction of type-approval costs.
For this category the industry is prepared and ready to define the components and characteristics that will need to be submitted to type-approval as well as to develop the testing procedures for those components and characteristics.
3)As for cycles and low-performance mopeds with an electric motor:
Low-performance mopeds are currently defined by means of a note to Annex I. The definition is as follows:
“Low-performance mopeds, i.e. mopeds with pedals, with an auxiliary engine of power not exceeding 1 kW and a maximum design speed not exceeding 25 km/hâ€Â
On behalf of the industry, ETRA proposes the introduction of a new category as a subdivision of the current category L “Mopedsâ€Â. This category would be defined as follows:
“Cycles and mopeds with one or more electric motors of combined power not exceeding 1 kW and a maximum design speed not exceeding 25 km/h.â€Â
Motivation:
A booming market stimulates technical development and product innovation. Quite a number of completely new vehicles cannot be classified under the current legislation, because that still pertains to the traditional mopeds. In Annex 2 are images of some of these vehicles. The market introduction of these vehicles is severely obstructed by the legal void.
The industry believes that a separate category for these vehicles in combination with an appropriate type-approval will allow this market to achieve its full potential. It will facilitate the development of the products as well as putting them in the market. This category will provide legal certainty, whereas improved efficiencies will bring about a reduction of type-approval costs.
At the same time, this category will cover all cycles equipped with an auxiliary electric motor that can propel the vehicle by itself.
For this category the industry is prepared to define the components and characteristics that will need to be submitted to type-approval as well as to develop the testing procedures for those components and characteristics.
dnmun
1 PW
how do you think pusher trailers would fit into the legal framework? would they be considered within the 1/2 kilowatt restriction?
that rule is so so lame, even old fat people need to go faster to keep up with traffic.
that rule is so so lame, even old fat people need to go faster to keep up with traffic.
monster
100 kW
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2007
- Messages
- 1,411
actually thats pretty cool. 500w continuous would cover most of the motors we use apart from the X5 which is 750w. so we would be free from any legal wories as long as we dont speed. is 500w continuous power more than the US federal limit of 750w max power?
still it would be nice to loose the pedal assist requirement and increase speed to the US 20mph standard.
still it would be nice to loose the pedal assist requirement and increase speed to the US 20mph standard.
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