New build thread, Q76R + QS 205 + HG2 + Mini-E

jmz

100 W
Joined
Jan 16, 2015
Messages
105
Location
Christchurch, New Zealand
Some of you might have seen my previous build thread here, https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=73499

The build has evolved a bit since I first started planning it, mostly due to deciding to get one of those beautiful Q76R moto frames in place of a custom battery box for a downhill bike, as the price was right and I figured I would be happier with the end result. The original donor bike, a Mongoose EC-D will still furnish almost all the parts for the build.

I have essentially all the bits needed to complete the build, now it's just a matter of hard work.

Exciting specs:
22s9p LG HG2 at 88V
Mini-E
QS 205 50H V3, 5.5T, laced into a 19x1.6" rim with SR244 rubber, 18T freewheel

I'll be very interested in the top speed characteristics of that setup, I have chosen to run the pack voltage as high as I can and selected a relatively low kV to squeeze as much power and efficiency out of the Mini-E as possible. A contentious topic, I know :p In another thread, I presented some data to the effect that the stated kM (resistive torque production efficiency) is notably higher in the higher turn count QS motors. I have gone with a 19" rear to match the 26" MTB front wheel diameter, to give good rolling performance.

Less exciting specs:
Marzocchi Bomber 888 RC2 fork
Fox DHX 5.0 9.5" rear shock
Truvativ Hussafelt cranks
Truvativ Howitzer bottom bracket (had to get a new 83mm one)
Hope Mono M4 4-pot hydraulic disks with 203mm Hope rotors.
Domino throttle, bodged hall effect variable regen brake lever to come
 
I have finally begun pack construction in earnest. Offroader's Q76R pack pictures gave me some solid starting points on how to best achieve a moderately sized (198 cell) Q76R pack, and so I eventually determined that a hexagonally packed layout of 22 flat 9P strips would fit straight in, giving a simple and robust pack construction with a minimum of interconnection distance. Each 9P strip would have a single strip parallel interconnection, and then be connected to the adjacent strip with 9 short strips on top of that. I should mention at this point that I only ever considered the use of 0.3mm nickel, which brings me to.. the Deathwelder.

https://imgur.com/a/xi2Hz

I thought it would be a doddle to cobble together a capacitive discharge welder. Although I am a power electronics engineer by trade, this was the first time I have ever designed or worked with pulsed power applications, and there was a bit of a learning curve. I went through multiple iterations after leaving smoking messes on both the board and an unlucky cell.

The principle of the design was using higher voltage components in a quest for More Power. I have access to a large supply of scrapped 50V 3900uF/4200uF electrolytic capacitors, so that became the target point for the working voltage level. Making a 400mF capacitor bank was the easy part, as was making some huge braided welding leads and threaded copper rods for welding electrodes.

The parts I obtained were 10x (soon to be 9x) Infineon IPB010N06N, 60V, 1 mOhm, 720A pulse rated

By using an inherently non-current-limited source and relatively less robust 60V MOSFETs, the path of simply relying on the avalance capability of the devices was closed to me. I had also elected to use honking great big leads with plenty of inductance, as well as a lumped capacitor bank which distributes even more inductance, so turn-offs have to be carefully managed or else they can easily turn fatal for the MOSFETs.

I considered that simply adding flyback diodes would be insufficient to protect the switches, as the inductance between the switching stage and the capacitor bank would still be more than enough to nuke the FETs at these current levels. I concentrated then on building the best diode-capacitor snubber I could, to absorb the entirety of the inductive energy right where I needed it, directly across the FETs.

As you can see from the images, working in my favour was a large busbar comprised of thick copper soldered to a PCB. This allowed a wide surface to distribute the current evenly, and to interleave the snubbers directly with the switching FETs. Each of the four switching FETs are interleaved within the five snubber FET-diodes (if I had some other suitable diodes I could have devoted the rest of the five snubber FETs to switching devices also). Each snubber has a couple of high voltage 22nF MLCC caps, as well as one of the same large electrolytics.

I quickly discovered that it was critical to slow the turnoff of the main switches devices to ludicrously slow levels (~4 us turnoff, through 800 Ohm gate drive resistors to a set of beefy paralleled MOSFET drivers), or else the inductance in the snubber electrolytics would not be able to keep up with the rate of current rise and they might as well not even be in the circuit (the 22nF MLCCs are only good for suppressing the most short and vicious of transients).

This got me almost to my goal of having a reliable multi-kA welder, with double/triple-pulse commutations not having the slightest impact on the main FETs, which stay below their avalanche voltage at all times and thus stay icy cold. I was getting good weld penetration into 0.3mm nickel at 25V, however there was a disturbing tendency to occasionally cause small explosions and ablate the entire layer of nickel in a shower of molten metal and with a deafening retort. This caused the loss of one cell (pictured) when this effect punched right through the nickel on the cathode.

I tried many things, from variations in pulse length and timing (even attempting an extended repetitive pulsetrain of 100us pulses), surface prep, and electrode finish, but nothing seemed to work. Eventually I got a clue from the oscilloscope probe I had set up to monitor the bus voltage, that even during the initial 'softening/cleaning' pulses the contact resistance was implied to be rapidly being raised, and that it was the very same stored inductive energy that by being dumped into the elevated workpiece resistance generated a runaway electrical/thermal/mechanical process that ultimately leads to the workpiece being turned into plasma.

No possible clamp type mechanism would have a hope of dealing with this, but with the aid of some simulation I hit upon the idea of stabilising the workpiece resistance with a parallel load, essentially a permanent near-short circuit placed as close as possible to the welding probes. This load was provided by two parallel strips of nickel, soldered to fat terminals and bolted directly to the probes, aiming to provide a similar load resistance to the minimum encountered during a pulse sequence.

The effect was to greatly stabilise the operation of the welder; no more explosions and almost no sparking, at the cost of requiring more stored energy and raising the commutation current and FET voltages a bit. I think that switched lead-acid type welders could benefit from this arrangement as well at high power levels (mitigated by lower inductance and lower peak currents because of inherent current limiting though), and something like this is almost certain to be required if attempting that holy grail of spot welding copper.

3 9P sections down, 19 to go. Should go much faster now. It can do a weld every two seconds (limited by control logic for snubber discharge time), indefinitely. Eventually those parallel nickel strips will get quite warm though!



Arduino welder control code here if anyone is interested:

http://paste.ofcode.org/mJaGWxyuKDgeGennDNjYEN
 
jmz said:
I'll be very interested in the top speed characteristics of that setup, I have chosen to run the pack voltage as high as I can and selected a relatively low kV to squeeze as much power and efficiency out of the Mini-E as possible. A contentious topic, I know :p In another thread, I presented some data to the effect that the stated kM (resistive torque production efficiency) is notably higher in the higher turn count QS motors. I have gone with a 19" rear to match the 26" MTB front wheel diameter, to give good rolling performance.

good decision for the setup^^ the QSV3 might be a bit overkill, but due to the reason you using larger wheels, it makes sense.
looking forward to see your battery building!
 
I'm not sure how you plan on building the 22s9p, but if you lay them side by side, you have to take note of the bottom row. In the picture I showed the cell with an arrow that is slightly pushed upwards to clear the corner.

I glued my pack compressed into the frame so it took proper shape.

You may have to line up the cells differently to get it to fit, but definitely test cell placement before gluing. Gluing will also increase cell spacing unless you glue it compressed.

Honestly, you should just consider using 21s, to make it a lot easier. But this depends on why you want to use 22s.

If I had to do it again I probably wouldn't have built such a large pack that came close to the frame opening.

 
The attached file is what led me to think that 22s9p would be easily achieved, by hacking up your Q76R frame pics with 280 cells. 198 cells is trivial by comparison.

https://imgur.com/2UztfMg

With your level of packing and spacing, there is some decent margin to the frame. Even if loose packing forces me over that estimation, worst case scenario is that I will have to make one or two irregular end sections, while still giving an overall very simply constructed and rigid pack.

I got in a few hours today, 12 9P sections welded, 10 to go.
 
Great stuff :)

Have you measured up the steerer length on the bomber to ensure you've got enough to get through the relatively long Qulbix head tube?

Looking increasingly likely I'm going to order the same frame and probably build a near identical configuration of battery. Did your Linko connectors bolt up to the charge port on the frame?
 
Ohbse said:
Great stuff :)

Have you measured up the steerer length on the bomber to ensure you've got enough to get through the relatively long Qulbix head tube?

Looking increasingly likely I'm going to order the same frame and probably build a near identical configuration of battery. Did your Linko connectors bolt up to the charge port on the frame?

Yeah, those CN linko connectors have the same profile and screw hole size as the Neutrik (according to datasheet, have not actually tried to put one on yet). Being 4-pin plugs, they will be great for an onboard charge coil, using two pins to complete the connection to the phase wire.

The donor bike has the same 150mm steerer size, so it should be fine. I should be able to tell you pretty soon if 22S9P fits straight in without modification. HG2 or 30Q?
 
I had Qulbix cut my head tube down at the top by 10 mm. SO my head tube is 140 mm.

The reason I did this was because my Marzochhi 888 fork had to go above the recommended height lines on the fork. I also ran out of adjustment on my DNM USD 8 fork and my 26x2.6 tires rub on bottom out. But this won't be an issue if you use a 24" tire or 19" motorcycle tire.

150mm is too long, not sure why they don't cut it down to 140 mm.
 
jmz said:
Yeah, those CN linko connectors have the same profile and screw hole size as the Neutrik (according to datasheet, have not actually tried to put one on yet). Being 4-pin plugs, they will be great for an onboard charge coil, using two pins to complete the connection to the phase wire.

The donor bike has the same 150mm steerer size, so it should be fine. I should be able to tell you pretty soon if 22S9P fits straight in without modification. HG2 or 30Q?

Cool, I'm sure you'll be fine then. Cell choice will probably come down to price at the time, they seem to fluctuate a bit. Definitely between those two options though. I'll be ordering ~600 cells so hopefully can negotiate a reasonable rate. If you want some more I could tack on some to my order.

Onboard coil is a good call. I could make up a tail out of some jumper leads and steal some juice from any idling ICE vehicle :)
 
jmz said:
I have finally begun pack construction in earnest. Offroader's Q76R pack pictures gave me some solid starting points on how to best achieve a moderately sized (198 cell) Q76R pack, and so I eventually determined that a hexagonally packed layout of 22 flat 9P strips would fit straight in, giving a simple and robust pack construction with a minimum of interconnection distance. Each 9P strip would have a single strip parallel interconnection, and then be connected to the adjacent strip with 9 short strips on top of that. I should mention at this point that I only ever considered the use of 0.3mm nickel, which brings me to.. the Deathwelder.

https://imgur.com/a/xi2Hz

I thought it would be a doddle to cobble together a capacitive discharge welder. Although I am a power electronics engineer by trade, this was the first time I have ever designed or worked with pulsed power applications, and there was a bit of a learning curve. I went through multiple iterations after leaving smoking messes on both the board and an unlucky cell.

The principle of the design was using higher voltage components in a quest for More Power. I have access to a large supply of scrapped 50V 3900uF/4200uF electrolytic capacitors, so that became the target point for the working voltage level. Making a 400mF capacitor bank was the easy part, as was making some huge braided welding leads and threaded copper rods for welding electrodes.

The parts I obtained were 10x (soon to be 9x) Infineon IPB010N06N, 60V, 1 mOhm, 720A pulse rated

By using an inherently non-current-limited source and relatively less robust 60V MOSFETs, the path of simply relying on the avalance capability of the devices was closed to me. I had also elected to use honking great big leads with plenty of inductance, as well as a lumped capacitor bank which distributes even more inductance, so turn-offs have to be carefully managed or else they can easily turn fatal for the MOSFETs.

I considered that simply adding flyback diodes would be insufficient to protect the switches, as the inductance between the switching stage and the capacitor bank would still be more than enough to nuke the FETs at these current levels. I concentrated then on building the best diode-capacitor snubber I could, to absorb the entirety of the inductive energy right where I needed it, directly across the FETs.

As you can see from the images, working in my favour was a large busbar comprised of thick copper soldered to a PCB. This allowed a wide surface to distribute the current evenly, and to interleave the snubbers directly with the switching FETs. Each of the four switching FETs are interleaved within the five snubber FET-diodes (if I had some other suitable diodes I could have devoted the rest of the five snubber FETs to switching devices also). Each snubber has a couple of high voltage 22nF MLCC caps, as well as one of the same large electrolytics.

I quickly discovered that it was critical to slow the turnoff of the main switches devices to ludicrously slow levels (~4 us turnoff, through 800 Ohm gate drive resistors to a set of beefy paralleled MOSFET drivers), or else the inductance in the snubber electrolytics would not be able to keep up with the rate of current rise and they might as well not even be in the circuit (the 22nF MLCCs are only good for suppressing the most short and vicious of transients).

This got me almost to my goal of having a reliable multi-kA welder, with double/triple-pulse commutations not having the slightest impact on the main FETs, which stay below their avalanche voltage at all times and thus stay icy cold. I was getting good weld penetration into 0.3mm nickel at 25V, however there was a disturbing tendency to occasionally cause small explosions and ablate the entire layer of nickel in a shower of molten metal and with a deafening retort. This caused the loss of one cell (pictured) when this effect punched right through the nickel on the cathode.

I tried many things, from variations in pulse length and timing (even attempting an extended repetitive pulsetrain of 100us pulses), surface prep, and electrode finish, but nothing seemed to work. Eventually I got a clue from the oscilloscope probe I had set up to monitor the bus voltage, that even during the initial 'softening/cleaning' pulses the contact resistance was implied to be rapidly being raised, and that it was the very same stored inductive energy that by being dumped into the elevated workpiece resistance generated a runaway electrical/thermal/mechanical process that ultimately leads to the workpiece being turned into plasma.

No possible clamp type mechanism would have a hope of dealing with this, but with the aid of some simulation I hit upon the idea of stabilising the workpiece resistance with a parallel load, essentially a permanent near-short circuit placed as close as possible to the welding probes. This load was provided by two parallel strips of nickel, soldered to fat terminals and bolted directly to the probes, aiming to provide a similar load resistance to the minimum encountered during a pulse sequence.

The effect was to greatly stabilise the operation of the welder; no more explosions and almost no sparking, at the cost of requiring more stored energy and raising the commutation current and FET voltages a bit. I think that switched lead-acid type welders could benefit from this arrangement as well at high power levels (mitigated by lower inductance and lower peak currents because of inherent current limiting though), and something like this is almost certain to be required if attempting that holy grail of spot welding copper.

3 9P sections down, 19 to go. Should go much faster now. It can do a weld every two seconds (limited by control logic for snubber discharge time), indefinitely. Eventually those parallel nickel strips will get quite warm though!



Arduino welder control code here if anyone is interested:

http://paste.ofcode.org/mJaGWxyuKDgeGennDNjYEN

Very cool! Nice work!
That is a strange issue that you're having with what you are are the voltage spikes at the welding tips due to inductance.
I am running 3kA and have no such issue. I just use a simple flyback diode circuit and the fets hold up like a champ.
But I am running 9V power supply. I think your problem is related to such high voltage, too high IMHO. Another issue is that with 400mF, that is only 125 W-s total energy, so you only get ~25 W-s or so into the weld. And your current profile will peak quickly and slope down as the caps quickly discharge.
Perhaps your issue is - with 25V - the initial current is just too high and heating too rapid. But at lower voltage, you won't have the energy needed to complete the weld. You need more Farads.
This is what makes battery better. By using a lower voltage, the current is limited by the leads and connections and actual weld, so you can choose your voltage and lead resistance to achieve the weld current you want.
I have found that 3kA is good for 0.3 nickel at 15ms pulse (with constant current)
I'd guess you may be peaking as high as 9kA - not good that is too much power and will cause the plasma problems you are having.
Id bet the nickel you added is helping your welding just because it takes some of the current spike at turn on so it's not so extreme across the actual weld.

Another easy way to keep your FET's from avalanche - instead of snubbing - just add lower voltage TVS diodes in the same direction as the FET's right across them in parallel.
If you're using 25V caps, 60V FET's, add some TVS diodes that will be <45V at full current and rated for >28V or so. Then the TVS diodes will take the avalanche instead of the FET's. :)
 
Yeah, I can see why batteries are a lot easier to work with. A much bigger capacitor bank would also help. At least that I could do with the present hardware.

My currents must be pretty high, because the on time is only 2x 200us pulses followed by a 4ms pulse. And all through only 4 FETs!
 
Does anybody have any suggestions for headlights/taillight?

I was thinking that the ideal might be something with built-in single-stage conversion/LED driving that can accept up to 90/100V, preferably with a built-in switch, though I can imagine that would be pricey.

The next best alternative seems to be a single well-specced DC/DC converter to a 5V, 10V or whatever most of these LED systems are most happy to run from (maybe bonus USB charging as well?). It would be nice to have a keyswitch that controls the operation of the converter directly, instead of having to switch the HV input mechanically. Might have to get a bit creative if I want a modulated taillight output as a brake indicator.


Minor spot welding drama, replacing the MOSFETs with these, as well as some 1800A pulse-rated schottky diodes, as well as doubling the capacitor bank to 800 mF to get the peak power down and hopefully control the violence done to the battery terminals:

http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irfs7530-7ppbf.pdf

At 800mF, you're looking at 1 kJ of stored energy at 50V. Enough to leave a pretty big crater in something. Once the welder is fully upgraded, the only thing that would be stopping it welding thick copper would be the probe tips. I've also realised that using 0.3mm nickel for the battery parallel connections was totally daft and unnecessary. 0.15mm would have been fine, saving the 0.3mm for the series connections.
 
I'm working on lights now but I can say that trying to get a DC-DC converter for 90-100 volts is not easy.

Most of the decent LED lights run at 8 volts or 2s lipo.

To get proper lighting it seems you want good optics in the light to not blind everyone. I'm working on all this now in another biking forum as they have whole threads devoted to bike lights.

I've bought a few cheap LED lights, and then have on order this yinding 900 light.

It seems that a lot of people like this yinding 900 in neutral white which was specially made again at gearbest for its higher quality and interest. And the good thing about it is you can get lots of different optics to better spread the light out and not blind people.

http://www.gearbest.com/led-flashlights/pp_133573.html
 
Suitable DC-DC converters may not be as scarce as you think, as many AC-DC SMPS will be able to be run off a suitable DC voltage, as the front end is normally just a rectifier. If it has an active PFC front end that tries to do something fancy it might not like it, but it's worth trying if you have got a few extra wall warts lying around with the right output voltage.

Can you link any other headlight threads?
 
Yes you can use an AC-DC converter and it should work. My setup requires me to have three converters, 12volt, 8 volt, and 5 volt. Which can handle a high amp for my custom hub motor cooling, so space is a big concern on my bike.

Here is a good post about the yinding 900.

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/36929

There are better lights out there of course, but really expensive. Yinding is probably best bang for your buck and you can get better optics easily to spread the light better.

If you want to check out probably the best and most expensive check these lights out.

http://www.lupinenorthamerica.com/bike_light_sets.asp
 
Is the 8V for the lights pretty standard?

I wonder what they think of the generic Cree T6 based lights, like http://www.ebay.com/itm/SolarStorm-12000LM-Bike-3-x-CREE-XM-L-T6-LED-Bicycle-Lamp-Outdoor-Headlight-Kit-/182047501951?hash=item2a62e06e7f:g:MEQAAOSwZ8ZW3nGO

It seems that if you're willing to completely redo the heatsinking, they can perform well.
 
https://imgur.com/a/bMGZ4

Bolted up the frame this weekend. Sticky business, molybdenum grease on every bolt and moving surface, but that should keep the bits happy. That QS motor has some serious cogging torque.

The axle took two spacers on the drive side, which left the wheel nicely centred. I had to add a couple of extra washers on the dropout reinforcement bolts, or else they would be sticking through. I also had the issue with the goop in the bottom bracket threads, I scraped it out with some tweezers and a wire brush. Great kit otherwise though. With two disk spacers, the Hope callipers will fit just fine. The phase wires don't seem to rub even without countersinking the disk, which was the backup plan.

Still working on the battery, I need to fiddle with the welder again. Feels good to have a rolling chassis.
 
I see you have the Qulbix label on the back of the frame, do you have it on the top?

Mine doesn't have it on the back like yours.

Just a recommendation to make sure to check the torque of like every bolt on the bike as all mine come loose. Just noticed the rear shock bolts were a bit loose after a few rides. nord lock washers are a must on the axle bolts and swingarm bolts.
 
jmz said:
Even with the Nyloc nuts? I'll be giving everything a tighten after the shakedown cruise. Maybe some threadlocker?
Nordlocks FTW
 
Getting close now! It's been a very painful process, but with 20 out of 22 9p packs welded, soon I will be able to start the actual pack assembly.

https://imgur.com/a/gsK9c

It seems that I have been getting myself in trouble for no reason by trying to weld with one electrode on the cell cases, when welding down and then up through the nickel seems capable of producing very strong welds by itself.

The welder is now configured to do 4-pulse operation, with 500us on, 500us off, 1000us on, 500us off, 1500us on, 500us off, 8ms on. Seems to provide a nice melting profile. It's also been upgraded to 1.5 Farads (50V max).

I wanted to solicit a little feedback for pack construction, my plan is to first hot-glue subsections of 5s-6s, weld them together with short 0.3mm nickel, and have the balance leads pre-soldered to one piece of nickel one side of each section. I have 4s balance leads with connectors, but these could need lengthening depending on where I can mount the Adaptto BMS.

I have some of the big BMSbattery heat-shrink, and I'm thinking of doing something like putting a layer of padding foam between inner and outer heat-shrink layers for extra protection and shock absorbtion.
 
Hi.

I am building a bike very similar to yours!
This is the link to my bike:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=84542

Some photos of my battery.
I left two holes down, to avoid the frame nuts .. This leaves more space and also avoid possible dangerous problems.

Regards.

20161019_205426.jpg
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20161020_223646.jpg
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20161029_205140.jpg
 
Nice!

Actually I was worried about those cage/frame nuts but if you use closed cell foam around the battery it will be impossible for it to ever hit the nuts, so no worries.

The key to securing the battery is using closed cell foam. It doesn't flatten out and makes indentations around the battery to hold the battery 100% secure from moving. My battery was still tight after months of riding. Basically the closed cell foam molds around the jagged batteries to hold it firmly in place, it also molds around the sides of it.















 
This is the closed cell foam I bought here in 3"

https://www.amazon.com/NSI-Minicell-Foam-12-1-5/dp/B00T3KKASA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1479530959&sr=8-2&keywords=closed+cell+foam

I just cut it up. The 3" fit nicely between the frame so you only need to cut one side of it. Weighs practically nothing.
 
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