Newbie project for commuting ebike - Help plz!

[nomidis]

Ok so I make my first attempt to conert my (only) trekking bike to a commuter!..
I kindly ask for your experience..

1) My bike:
Ideal Megisto Trekking 700c (costs about 400€ here in greece)
https://www.idealbikes.net/?section=2150&language=en_US&itemid1494=2192&detail1494=1

2) My need:
Home-work-home commute of about 15km daily in Athens city (no bicycle lanes - slow traffic). 200m altitude to sea-level and back. I am about 90 kgr and no need to carry bags. What i would prefer is that I pedal lightly, not to go fully electric the whole time.

3) My budget:
$600 to $700 at most for the full conversion including battery cost

4) Battery I found from pswpower:
48V 10.4AH Li-ion Dolphin E-Bike Battery with Charger Made of LG LGEBM261865 fits 48V 750W/1000W - $247
http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2017-5f-31t0

5) The kit I found from em3:
Mac Ebike Kit with 48/52V (25A Max) Battery Option (~900-1200W Max) €412 (EUR) (shipping is another extra 96€)

6) Analysis of the kit (please help me here I might forget something necessary or have some wrong option):
- Throttle – €8.70 (EUR)
- 3 Speed Switch For Infineon Controller
- 3 Speed Switch With Cruise Function (Used with the throttles above) — €4.35 (EUR)
- Ebrakes €5.22 (EUR)
- EB3 Infineon Program Lead: For Programming EB3 Infineon Controllers (Software included) - €8.70 (EUR)
- Torque Arm (Recommended, 2 can be fitted for extra security) - Rear Rev4 €33.13

- Mac Motor Wind - 10T 50KPH (30 MPH) at 48V/26" - €0.00 (EUR)
- Rim Type For Wheel Build
- Rim Type:700C/28"/29" Alex DH21 CNC - €23.50 (EUR)
- Spoke Type For Wheel Build
- Spoke Type:13G Sapim Black (Please ensure you select a rim) - €21.76 (EUR)
- Controller Type - 6 fet 3077 (36-52V, 25A) - €52.23 (EUR)
- Freewheel Type - 8sp DNP (11T) - €19.15 (EUR)
- Mac Motor & Axle Type - €235.03 (EUR)

Any suggestions?

UPDATE:
I fixed the list above and added brakes, throttle, 3speed-switch, 10T instead of 8T
What about the Freewheel, what is the logic for me to choose??


UPDATE 2:
Throughout the whole discussion and suggestions I ended up with this recommended solution, instead of the initial mac-motor based one:

a) Q128H motor at 201 rpm 36V:
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/775-16782-q128h-36v800w-rear-driving-ebike-hub-motor-ebike-kit.html#/42-voltage-36v/213-rpm-201
99 usd

b) 36V/48V 1000W-1500W 12Mosfets 35A Brushless DC Torque Simulation Square Wave Controller
LCD/LED:KT-LCD3
Throttle:with left Throttle
Brake:without
Speed sensor:with Speed sensor
PAS:without
http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2016-3f-28ym
61.66 usd

c) 48v - 10.4 Ah LG Battery from psw-power
http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2017-5f-31t0
247 usd

UPDATE 3:
Battery ($247):
http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2017-5f-31t0
Kit ($340):
http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2018-4t-hkfj

587 dollars total !
That was my order after all this e-bike kit choice marathon!!!

 

[SlowCo]

Any suggestions?

I don't see the brakes (with switches), throttle (or PAS), display, 3 speed switch, torque arm or programming cable mentioned in your list. Then you'll be well over €400,- and the prices from EM3EV are excluding shipping and taxes. So that might become somewhere between 5 and 6 hundred euro total.
If you'll buy the battery from PSW Power you could also consider to buy a mid drive kit from them. The 750W BBS02 would be a good candidate and stays under €400,- including shipping and taxes. With all the power through the gears it won't perform less than the 8T MAC and might be better up hill.
http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2017-61-s29r

 

[nomidis]

I don't see the brakes (with switches), throttle (or PAS), display, 3 speed switch, torque arm or programming cable mentioned in your list. Then you'll be well over €400,- and the prices from EM3EV are excluding shipping and taxes. So that might become somewhere between 5 and 6 hundred euro total.
If you'll buy the battery from PSW Power you could also consider to buy a mid drive kit from them. The 750W BBS02 would be a good candidate and stays under €400,- including shipping and taxes. With all the power through the gears it won't perform less than the 8T MAC and might be better up hill.
http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2017-61-s29r

I updated now the list of my initial post! and you are right, the cost is above 400 and with shipping 500 euro+...

I added brakes, throttle, 3speed-switch, 10T instead of 8T
What about the Freewheel, what is the logic for me to choose??

PS, I will dfinitely consider the mid-drive you suggest, but I initially am very much biased towards the hub motors.. (less complexity, less power on the chain, less wear-out)

 

[SlowCo]

If you now have a threaded "freewheel cassette" then you can probably reuse it on a MAC motor for a freewheel. If you now have a "slide on" cassette on your bike and it's still good you can reuse that on a MAC motor for a cassette.

 

[nomidis]

If you now have a threaded "freewheel cassette" then you can probably reuse it on a MAC motor for a freewheel. If you now have a "slide on" cassette on your bike and it's still good you can reuse that on a MAC motor for a cassette.

My bike's tech specs say:
CASSETTE/FREEWHEEL Shimano HG30 8sp cassette 11-13-15-18-21-24-28-32T
So, from that can I tell what kind of cassette i have?

 

[SlowCo]

If I google that then it looks to be a sliding (not threaded) cassette. So order the rear MAC cassette motor and you can alway find a replacement cassette later if yours is worn out.

 

[nomidis]

Slowco, i can't tell you how much i appreciate your help and experience. yet, please bear with me, as i need to investigate in a different option..

I have started looking in the q128 motor, which has the advantage of being rather lightweight and kind of stealth too..
Also i see it is considerably cheaper than the previously discussed solutions..
With the same battery, 48v and a 201 rpm set-up, from what i read it would be capable to climb hills of 5 to 8% incline.

Keep in mind that i would prefer to pedal along with it and that my max speed preference for flat is about 30 kph.
What would you suggest about it?

 

[SlowCo]

The Q128 comes in two versions: Q128C (cassette) in 500W and Q128H (threaded freewheel) in 800W (wider motor inside). So if choosing a Q128 then you need the stronger "H" version in low rpm (201= at 36V) and 48V (more rpm= more speed) for better hill climbing ability. Don't forget to order a threaded freewheel cassette that fits it (ask the seller).

This Q128H kit:
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/77...el-ebike-kit.html#/43-voltage-48v/213-rpm-201

You need to tell them the wheel size you want and order a 12 fet controller with it and everything else you need.

 

[motomech]

2) My need:
Home-work-home commute of about 15km daily in Athens city (no bicycle lanes - slow traffic). 200m altitude to sea-level and back. I am about 90 kgr and no need to carry bags. What i would prefer is that I pedal lightly, not to go fully electric the whole time.

Unless you build a light-weight "road" style bike and are a very fit cyclist w/ strong legs, you will not be riding w/ the power system off. The extra weight and slight drag from the motor makes this very tiring. The way these things are used is to set the PAS at a speed level(square wave controller) or power level(sine wave controller) a little less than what you want to cruise at and add a mile an hour or two w/ your legs.

My budget:
$600 to $700 at most for the full conversion including battery cost...

It is not unusual from the first timer on a budget to plan a build w/ the MAC/Infineon stuff, then to realize when the little stuff is added, they will be well over budget. Then 2 things must be done;
1)As you have already noticed, buy the parts from the big vendors(like BMS Battery or PWS Power). For what you want to do, the quality of the Q128/genaric controller is good enough, but the parts will not be intergrated as well as if you bought them from Em3ev and the big vendors will not be as helpful.
2)Reduce your speed expectations. You do not say what your cruise speed expectations are, but do not think that you will be able to maintain a cruise of 30 mph, even with the MAC motor. But you could get a cruise average in the high 20's mph. With the Q128 system, figure closer to 25 mph. This is moot really, as the bike you are looking at is NOT a 30 mph bicycle! Without rear suspension or disc brk.s, it's more of a low to middle 20's mph bicycle. Also, speed takes it out of your battery. With your proposed batt. at 30 mph, you would get between 10 to 15 miles, where as @ 25 mph, you would see between 15 to 20 miles. Cruising @ 25 mph is safer and fast enough to be entertaining and to have the feeling you are getting somewhere. Speed takes money and bigish batteries. Also, w/ your bike's gearing (11/48), mid 20's mph is about the fastest you will be able to pedal along. If you want to pedal faster, you will need some special gearing ($$$)
If you decide that you can live w/ 25 mph, the most important thing is to select the motor speed range that will get you there and be as efficient as possible. In general, there are 3 motor speed ranges w/ hub motors;
1) 201 (201 rpm rated @ 36 Volts) This the "low" speed motor.
2) 260, the "mid" speed motor.
3) 328, the "high" speed motor.
W/ 700cc wheels, and even w/out steep hills, the high speed motor is probably not a good choice.
Given you do not mention long and steep hills, the mid-speed motor would be the best compromise.
But, the Q128 does not come in a 260, but there is a work-a-round, and it is this;
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/769-16768-q128c-135mm-500w-rear-driving-ebike-hub-motor-wheel-ebike-kit.html#/43-voltage-48v/214-rpm-328
It is rated at 48 Volts, but if it were measured @ the more common 36 Volts, it would spec @ 260 rpm. So it is, for our reasoning, a mid-speed motor.
You may notice it is a CST(w/ @ spline mount for a cassette). The reason I prefer a cassette has nothing to do w/ ease of shifting, as w/ a motor, you will do little shifting, using 2 or maybe 3 gears. It has to do w/ cost and ease of maintenance. The DNP freewheel is expensive and when the 11 tooth gear (the one you will be in 90% of time) wears out, the only option is to buy another complete freewheel. Some cassettes allow one gear replacement, or more practically, replace the low-cost cassette ASM.
The next choice is the controller and there are many considerations. In fact, we could do an entire thread on controllers, but for now, it comes down to sine-wave or square-wave. For simplicity and low cost, I prefer this simple square wave from PWS Power's Ebay store;
https://www.ebay.com/itm/36V-48V-350W-9MOSFET-ebike-Electric-Bicycle-Brushless-Motor-Controller-with-LED/222373438918?hash=item33c67d65c6:m:mbKLR3ZxoW6uyvaARkN1_xw:rk:37f:0
Unfortunately, this means ordering from 3 stores, each w/ it's own freight costs, but there is nothing for it.
Also, you will need a number of sm. things from BMS Battery like a spoke wrench, left-hand, half-twist throttle, torque arms and hidden brake sensor. And if you are like most of us here, you will soon be thinking about better, flat-resistant tires.
If this sounds like an approach you might want to take, we can go over the ordering and installation details, like wheel truing and off-set(you will need to "dish" the wheel, because of the Q128 motor's extra width) and which controller.
Edit; I noticed in your last post, you mentioned an 8% hill. If it is longer than a few hundred meters, you might want to consider the 201 motor. But you will lose some top speed. Hills are everything w/ ebikes, especially hub motors, so you need to take into consideration the longest and steepest hill you will encounter. OR, think if you can go around it on another route.

 

[nomidis]

What an enlightening post!! Thank you @motomech!!!

Your suggestions/recommendations about the speed seem perfect-fit for me! I couldnt agree more about the safe-speed aspects of yours...
You are right I did not state it in my initial post, but, here you see, I m talking about 30Kph which is even bellow 20mph:

Keep in mind that i would prefer to pedal along with it and that my max speed preference for flat is about 30 kph.

That is why I see the 201rpm fit for me. If this offers speeds between 20 and 25 mph I will be more than happy.
What is more, if this takes me cruising to a wider range of 15-20 miles, it is just what I dream of, really

About the budget, what you suggested, sorry, I need some clarification: If I go for the q128H kit, dont you believe I can manage for $600 or below?

All things considered, I now feel pretty confident with the choice of q128H from bms kit @201rpm and the 48v battery from psw.

 

[motomech]

Sorry got busy replying to this thread, which you might want to check out;
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=98575&p=1443969#p1443969
Will reply tomorrow

 

[nomidis]

Sorry got busy replying to this thread, which you might want to check out;
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=98575&p=1443969#p1443969
Will reply tomorrow

That was very userful thanx!

One more question: what about the freewheel-cassete choice? Correct me if I m wrong, but as I have understood, the q128H quite wide, so i fugure there would be a problem fitting it in the space provided of my megisto fork with the existing 8 speed cassette?

 

[docw009]

Everyone is different. I believe motomech is quite a strong rider, while I'm a wimp.

At his higher speeds, i don't doubt that he feels every bit of extra energy needed to overcome the drag of a motor, wind resistance, and the extra weight of the drive train. At my speeds, which average 13-15 mph, pedaling w/o power also requires extra energy but it is proportionally so much less that it feels not much harder compared to a regular bike.

 

[motomech]

It's more a case that I ride mountain bikes that were considered porky in their day, 2.4" tires, inflated to 40 psi. Makes for a comfy ebike, but not a great pedaler.
So it's not only a case of everybody is different, but also everybody's ride is different.

 

[motomech]

Sorry got busy replying to this thread, which you might want to check out;
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=98575&p=1443969#p1443969
Will reply tomorrow

That was very userful thanx!

One more question: what about the freewheel-cassete choice? Correct me if I m wrong, but as I have understood, the q128H quite wide, so i fugure there would be a problem fitting it in the space provided of my megisto fork with the existing 8 speed cassette?

generaly, when I refer to the Q128 as being wide, I'm referring to the motor housing. The actual dropout width is standard, or maybe a milimeter wider. Free wheel or cassette, the total combined width should in the 135 to 137 m/m range. It's easy to spread the chainstay a milimeter or two. A flat washer needs to be added between the gear-set and the inside of the drop-out to prevent the two from rubbing.

 

[motomech]

What an enlightening post!! Thank you @motomech!!!

Your suggestions/recommendations about the speed seem perfect-fit for me! I couldnt agree more about the safe-speed aspects of yours...
You are right I did not state it in my initial post, but, here you see, I m talking about 30Kph which is even bellow 20mph:

Keep in mind that i would prefer to pedal along with it and that my max speed preference for flat is about 30 kph.

That is why I see the 201rpm fit for me. If this offers speeds between 20 and 25 mph I will be more than happy.
What is more, if this takes me cruising to a wider range of 15-20 miles, it is just what I dream of, really

About the budget, what you suggested, sorry, I need some clarification: If I go for the q128H kit, dont you believe I can manage for $600 or below?

All things considered, I now feel pretty confident with the choice of q128H from bms kit @201rpm and the 48v battery from psw.

Yes, many of us consider the 20 to 25 mph range to be the "sweet spot"
The Q128 (201) in a 700cc wheel on 48 Volts should put you right at 20 mph. If you are feeling energenic, you can add a mph or two w/ your legs.
A 52 Volt pack would be even better, but I believe it would add considerably to the cost

 

[ScooterMan101]

Nomidis,

I can not speak about the Q128 , However I have Two Q100c motors and a Mac 6 T motor.

The Q128 is right in between the Q100c and the Mac motor both in weight and power.

I will be selling both the Q100c motor/wheel kits, The Mac motor can do just about everything . you can run it on low wattage or higher wattage and amps. Fun starts at a 44 volt pack ( 12s ) and 30 amps up to 52 volt pack ( 14s ) and 25+ amps.
I do not think the Q128 can do that .

I would and might try a Q128 motor in the future but only for a low power set up. I do not think it will go up hills as good as the Mac in fact I am sure it will not, I have taken the Mac up a very steep hill with a 10s pack at 30 amps, A hill that would kill the Q100 .
The Mac comes in high speed ( 6 T ) down to high torque ( 12 T ) which someone used to travel across the mountains from Canada to Mexico. I do not think I would try that with a Q128.

For just street riding the Q128 would be fine , but for faster speeds as well as the slower speeds and more amps to go up hills the Mac will do better. Even though the Q128 is a good motor ... with a 200 meter climb , I would want to be on the Mac instead.

The Mac Kit is more money, however you can get the Cycle Analyst V 3.x that has the thermal cut off feature with the newer Mac Motor.

Knowing what I know now , I would pay more for a new, and even a used Mac kit over a Q 128 kit .

 

[nomidis]

For just street riding the Q128 would be fine , but for faster speeds as well as the slower speeds and more amps to go up hills the Mac will do better. Even though the Q128 is a good motor ... with a 200 meter climb , I would want to be on the Mac instead.

Hi ScooterMan!

Generally what you told me makes good sense and I am sure that you know exactly what a mac motor is capable of (i.e. climbing mountains from Canada to Mexico).

Yet this is not my case, I will not need it to climb mountains, nor make big trips with powerful assistance.

Maybe I have not explained accuratelly my need in terms of climbing. These ~200m (actually it is more like 180m as I see it now on the maps) is spread at a 15km trip and it is the TOTAL climb from start to finish, not the altitude difference. The inclination of the trip is normally 1-2% and at a couple of short spots around 6-8% for 200-300 meters distance.

So in no case the guy from Mexico could be my case!

I tend to be a fan of efficiency, both in money and in energy costs (in weight as well), so I still will consider Q128H as my primary choice!

Thank you for your insights anyway! it provides me a good way to set comparison levels!

 

[nomidis]

generaly, when I refer to the Q128 as being wide, I'm referring to the motor housing. The actual dropout width is standard, or maybe a milimeter wider. Free wheel or cassette, the total combined width should in the 135 to 137 m/m range. It's easy to spread the chainstay a milimeter or two. A flat washer needs to be added between the gear-set and the inside of the drop-out to prevent the two from rubbing.

@motomech, thank you sir!
You gave me just about any technical info that I needed to proceed, I am convinced now to go for this motor.

Now it is "Order-Time" (not an easy task)

The good thing is that there is only bms-battery for these Q128 kits, am I right?
(i mean if i decide to go for the full kit from a single vendor - which I would greatly prefer).

Only for the battery I will go from psw-power..
Is there any chance I have connectivity problems between those two?

Any gotchas, on ordering from BMS??

 

[SlowCo]

generaly, when I refer to the Q128 as being wide, I'm referring to the motor housing. The actual dropout width is standard, or maybe a milimeter wider. Free wheel or cassette, the total combined width should in the 135 to 137 m/m range. It's easy to spread the chainstay a milimeter or two. A flat washer needs to be added between the gear-set and the inside of the drop-out to prevent the two from rubbing.

@motomech, thank you sir!
You gave me just about any technical info that I needed to proceed, I am convinced now to go for this motor.

Now it is "Order-Time" (not an easy task)

The good thing is that there is only bms-battery for these Q128 kits, am I right?
(i mean if i decide to go for the full kit from a single vendor - which I would greatly prefer).

Only for the battery I will go from psw-power..
Is there any chance I have connectivity problems between those two?

Any gotchas, on ordering from BMS??

If I understand it correctly the Q128H (=freewheel threads) is rated for 800W and the Q128C (cassette) is rated for 500W as the internal motor is wider in the H then in the C version. So for the most power and speed you need to order the Q128H and a suitable freewheel "cassette" cluster.
I think the 36V 201rpm version with a 48V battery and controller would be ideal for the light hills you ride.

 

[nomidis]

that is the difficult part for me, the extra things i will need..
when you say cassette cluster, should i order it from bms battery, or is it something i can get from a bicycle parts shop in general?

 

[donn]

Sure, any bicycle shop should have that - typically under the name "freewheel", I think. Which technically I believe refers only to the body, but it will come with the cogs also. "Cassette" means the splined thing that fits on the 128C, so that term will send you down the wrong path. On the bright side, as far as I know, all freewheels fit all threaded hubs, but the cassette scene is more in the Shimano style where "innovation" prevails.

 

[nomidis]

ok I see!
What are the extra necessary things that I should order from bms to come with the kit?
Can somebody help me with this pls?

Bms eshop does not help a newbie to complete the order easily. for example the controller selection is not in any selection box.. also i do not see any selection regarding the lcd display, the pas etc...

 

[docw009]

BMSBattery suggests two controllers for the Q128H. Their S09 is a sensorless unit. Sensorless controllers have been suspected to lose sync with higher rpm motors like the Q100. Probably never happen on a Q128. Also, the S09 is only a 36V controller. Most people don't care if a controller is multi-voltage, but I do. For 36/48V, you would probably want one of their S12's, which is a physically large controller. The S12 is 12 FET's. The S)9 is 9 FET's. Neither sold as a complete kit. You need to add

-two brake levers
-throttle
-a compatible display (LCD3 is best)
-PAS sensor

The Q128H has a built in speed sensor, but if you wanted to use an external one, you can buy one. You aslo have a choice of wattage and sine or trapezoid wave.

PSWpower only sells 6FET 20A sinewave controller, but they are 36/48V and you can buy them as a kit with all the accessories. Their higher current 9 FET and 12FET models are square wave and sensorless. Those are about the same size as BMSBatteries S06, but the S06 is only for 36V.

 

[donn]

... You need to add

-two brake levers
-throttle
-a compatible display (LCD3 is best)
-PAS sensor

Might not absolutely need all that. I have no PAS, and use only one "e-brake", the other is whatever came on my bicycle, and I really have the one only because my direct drive hub supports regen, and it's useful with "cruise control". I suppose there's some safety benefit even if you have neither of those features, but not essential.