Nissan makes fuel cell breakthrough

[julesa]

I thought this went nicely with the recent MIT electrolysis breakthrough. Press release below:

NISSAN DOUBLES THE POWER DENSITY OF NEXT GENERATION FUEL CELL STACK

- 35% cost reduction achieved -

TOKYO (August 6, 2008) - Nissan Motor Co., Ltd. has developed a new fuel cell stack with double the power density of the previous generation stack. The new fuel cell stack also achieves a 35% cost reduction mainly due to half the use of platinum, a key material used in the production of fuel cell stacks. Test fleets incorporating the improved fuel cell stacks will be operational by the end of this year.

MEA (Membrane Electrode Assembly): Double the power density is achieved through improved conductivity of the electrolyte layer within the MEA, where the main chemical reaction occurs, coupled with a more densely-packed cell structure.

Cell Structure: A more densely-packed cell structure is achieved through the replacement of the carbon separator with a new thin metal separator. The separator functions to break down the hydrogen, oxygen and cooling water necessary for the chemical reaction. A specific coating applied to the separator helps improve conductivity and prevents chemical corrosion, leading to increased efficiency and durability throughout the fuel cell stack’s life-cycle.

Electrode: Higher durability electrode material results in a 50% reduction of the platinum required compared to the previous generation. This in turn, provides a significant breakthrough in the cost of these components.

Stack size and cost: The combined improvements in the cell result in double the power density, which enables a downsizing of the fuel cell stack size by one-third and significant cost reduction, without sacrificing performance. Compared to the previous generation, the new generation stack’s power output is increased 1.4 times from 90kW to 130kW, which can power larger vehicles. Stack size is reduced by 75% to 68L from 90L, which allows for improved packaging flexibility.

The next generation fuel cell stack is amongst a range of eco-friendly technologies being pursued by Nissan under its Nissan Green Program 2010, aimed at developing new technologies, products and services that can lead to real-world reductions in vehicle CO2 emissions, cleaner emissions, and recycling of resources.

 

[EMF]

This is great news! Nice find.

 

[Ian]

complete waste of time. Its still burning something, with all the engineering complication we have now. Electric is how its going to pan out. Pretty much all you need is batteries, motor, controller.

 

[johnrobholmes]

For long distances burning stuff is still best, the energy density and rapid refill of liquid fuel still can't be beat.

 

[paultrafalgar]

Fuel cells are currently fiercely expensive. I just contacted this Swedish company to inquire about fuel cell for my off-grid house (http://www.cellkraft.se/); a 2Kwatt system costs about £30,000 ($60,000) + extra for the gas distribution system.
So I think you can forget them and concentrate on batteries for now.

 

[andys]

If EEstor gets their supercapaciter to market, Fuel cells are dead meat. 200 mile range at highway speeds, 5 minute recharge with high amp charging station. High oil prices are fueling the slow death of the oil industry.

Fuel cells=oil companies answer to alternate energy. They will still be in the supply loop.

 

[julesa]

complete waste of time. Its still burning something, with all the engineering complication we have now. Electric is how its going to pan out. Pretty much all you need is batteries, motor, controller.

Complexity is not a problem. Look at modern ICE engines -- somehow they seem to be kinda successful in the market right now.

Simplicity is good. But for transportation, people will buy whatever solution packs the most energy into the lightest, smallest, safest package for the least money. If that solution is relatively simple -- batteries, motor, controller, great. ICE engines were relatively simple too, until people started figuring out some rather complicated ways of making them cleaner and more efficient.

Sure, with today's technology, batteries are the way to go for clean portable energy. Hydrogen energy storage has a long way to go, but if breakthrough improvements in fuel cell and hydrogen storage technology SOMEDAY make it more practical for transportation than batteries, then it's definitely NOT a "waste of time."

Hydrogen fuel cell technology is more economical than batteries right now for remote stationary applications where the amount of energy stored is large compared with the rate the energy needs to be used. So any advances in that field will pay off in a big way for some application.

I truly hope Eestor's supercapacitor works out. Same with Firefly batteries. But I'm very skeptical of both -- I smell snake oil.

 

[julesa]

Fuel cells are currently fiercely expensive. I just contacted this Swedish company to inquire about fuel cell for my off-grid house (http://www.cellkraft.se/); a 2Kwatt system costs about £30,000 ($60,000) + extra for the gas distribution system.
So I think you can forget them and concentrate on batteries for now.

SO... because fuel cells aren't economical right now, we should "forget them." Is that your argument? Nissan just made a 35% cost reduction in their cells. That's HUGE. I think it's safe to say that we still have a thing or two to learn about fuel cell technology.

Yes, it will be years before they're economically practical in a car. How long? Five years? Ten? Am I the only one who's excited about finding out?

Maybe they never will. Maybe Nissan will never recover the money they are spending on fuel cell research and development. But it's a pretty good bet that the results of their research will eventually be used in stationary home energy storage systems.

 

[Drunkskunk]

There is no burning in a fuel cell. and those EEstor supercaps are very possably nothing more than vaporware.

Fuel cells right now aren't the answer to the "How do we get off oil" question, but they are the answer to "how do we clean up the enviroment"

A Fuel cell doen't make a lot of financial sence right now for the average consumor car, but for fleet vehicles, its a near perfect solution.


The future of transport may well be electricity, but right now, its too early to tell. Batteries can only hold so much, and take time to recharge. Compressed air may be a viable alternitive. But so might Active road technologies (power and vehicle controll come from the road, like bumper cars, or street trollys)
But it is equily likely that with dwindling resorces, a global economy, and an ever increasing population, that personal transportation might well be a luxury that is going to become out dated by the end of the century.

 

[paultrafalgar]

It wasn't my intention to discourage research. Only to say that in the near future it is likely that ebikers should think about batteries as a motive force, not hold their breath waiting for fuel cells to become viable.

 

[Drunkskunk]

There is already a Fuel cell Ebike on the market. its not all that expensive compared to what some of the better Ebikes cost. But its less power dense than a battery, and its still consuming fuel. http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/hydrogen/hydrogen-fuel-cell-bike-298773.php

 

[julesa]

Drunkskunk -- COOL! I think that "mass production number" at $500 has to be a fairytale. The $2600 is more believable, and still a good price considering what I've seen for fuel cells... paultrafalgar was absolutely right about current prices being impractical.

Fuel cells=oil companies answer to alternate energy. They will still be in the supply loop.

Fuel cell and hydrogen technology isn't an energy source, it's an energy storage technology, exactly like batteries. Batteries definitely look more promising in the short term for passenger cars. But batteries usually burn fuel too. Where I live, grid power is mostly hydroelectric, but the majority of grid power in the US, and in the world, comes from mining and burning coal. At least batteries use that energy relatively efficiently. Fuel cells are more efficient than an internal combustion engine, but still relatively inefficient. They're improving all the time, though. Lead-acid is around 70-80% efficient. Lithium's over 95% if I remember correctly. But batteries have a flat expense-capacity graph. Twice the energy storage capacity generally costs twice as much.

I think once costs come down, hydrogen technology will be good for storing LARGE amounts of energy economically. I'll be surprised if hydrogen ever gets more economical than batteries for something as small as an e-bike. The more energy you want to store, the more economical hydrogen becomes. Adding storage capacity with batteries means manufacturing more batteries. Adding storage capacity to a hydrogen system is as easy as installing a bigger tank.

 

[TylerDurden]

Adding storage capacity to a hydrogen system is as easy as installing a bigger tank.

Maybe... but it better be strong.

I'm not sure where ECD detoured away from the hydride vehicle they prototyped two years ago... lower pressure storage in a more stable compound. Looked promising too. :?

PHEVs have a strong advantage: their "fuel" distribution networks are already in place. Conversely, H2 is yet another resource that is abundant, but needs an industry developed to deliver it to consumers.

 

[julesa]

Adding storage capacity to a hydrogen system is as easy as installing a bigger tank.

Maybe... but it better be strong.

I'm not sure where ECD detoured away from the hydride vehicle they prototyped two years ago... lower pressure storage in a more stable compound. Looked promising too. :?

PHEVs have a strong advantage: their "fuel" distribution networks are already in place. Conversely, H2 is yet another resource that is abundant, but needs an industry developed to deliver it to consumers.

There's already a pipeline network built for transporting dihydrogen monoxide. http://www.dhmo.org/
There's a video detailing its dangers here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f79g2cYzflU&feature=related

 

[paultrafalgar]

Dihydrogen monoxide? H2O? Water? Is it April 1st? I thought it was August 8th?! WTF!

 

[Drunkskunk]

Yeah, that DHMO is dangerous stuff. It only took a couple drops of it to completly destroy my Crystalyte Controller. If I remember right, it was DHMO that was responsable for weakening the levees in New Orleans, that eventualy lead to their failure and the flooding of the city. I've also heard that its one of the cheif chemicle componants of Acid rain.









http://www.dhmo.org/