vanilla ice
1 MW
You guys running solar or UPS setups.. where are you buying your batteries?
Non-mobile large batteries: NiFe nickel iron, deep cycle Pb
- Thread starter vanilla ice
- Start date
vanilla ice
1 MW
I was thinking of going with the Trojan 6v 225ah ones.. guess its cheaper to pay lousy prices locally than to pay shipping.
liveforphysics
100 TW
I agree 100%. Nickle Iron is the way to go for applications where weight and size of the battery don't matter. You go with Nickel Iron, and you've got energy storage for life.
Lead is temporary and fairly unreliable and dangerous (needs battery rooms with ventilation etc)
Lead is temporary and fairly unreliable and dangerous (needs battery rooms with ventilation etc)
vanilla ice
1 MW
Pricey.. and skeeered as I'm unfamiliar with them. What is the charged voltage, 1.4v?
I think I'd rather go lead.
I think I'd rather go lead.
liveforphysics
100 TW
Nothing to fear about Nickel-Iron my friend. As long as you don't drink the electrolyte, you're pretty much golden. Nothing you do is going to ever hurt them, and if somehow you found a way to damage the electrolyte, you can just dump it out, hose out the cell, pour fresh in, and it's a new battery. The plates in them don't even have a mechanism in them to wear/corrode AFAIK.
The only single downside is the weight and bulk, which is even worse than lead. But again, once installed, it's good for your lifetime unlike lead that will need to be swapped out every few years (or even in a week if you abuse it badly).
The only single downside is the weight and bulk, which is even worse than lead. But again, once installed, it's good for your lifetime unlike lead that will need to be swapped out every few years (or even in a week if you abuse it badly).
liveforphysics
100 TW
Use Lithium Hydroxide as your electrolyte rather than potasium hydroxide, set a meanwell to float the string at 1.65v/cell (which is the perfect float voltage for Lithium Hydroxide in a NiFe cell).
You can install a set of NiFe cells somewhere under your house or something, cycle them as often as you want, fully discharge, overcharge, whatever you want, and your maintenance will consist of forgetting you have them under your house, and every 10 years or so checking to see if you need to top-off the electrolyte with distilled water.
You can install a set of NiFe cells somewhere under your house or something, cycle them as often as you want, fully discharge, overcharge, whatever you want, and your maintenance will consist of forgetting you have them under your house, and every 10 years or so checking to see if you need to top-off the electrolyte with distilled water.
yopappamon
10 kW
Is that price typical? $10 per ah? I guess if they last forever it's not that bad, but still a big hit up front.
vanilla ice
1 MW
I'm looking at $2000 for 24v 100ah, that is a HUGE hit.. I can't afford that. I'm going to try to find a local supplier for trojan. I can get more than twice the capacity for less than half the cost versus NiFe. Appeciate the heads up though, hopefully NiFe prices will drop or I will get rich sometime in the near future!
Is there no way to scratch build these type of NiFe cells?
Is there no way to scratch build these type of NiFe cells?
TylerDurden
100 GW
Also check out Crown.
http://www.crownbattery.com/?page=renewable
http://www.crownbattery.com/?page=renewable
SamTexas
1 MW
vanilla ice said:
If your typical usage is less than 50% DOD, it's hard to find anything more economical than lead-acid. Trojan is one of the best, but also quite pricey.
I bought four Walmart deep cycle batteries 3 years ago for my motorhome. 4 x 12V 125Ah = 12V 500Ah = 6kwh for $320. That's $0.64/Ah at 12V. They still perform well today.
vanilla ice
1 MW
I went with a couple Kirkland costco "hybrid" deep/starter a few years ago but I treated them badly I guess, they didn't last as long as I'd have liked. I'm going to try trojan or crown true deep bats this time. Sounds like people are happy with those and the price is right.
That NiFe stuff does sound awesome, I might go that route later for something where budget and time frame allows. Looks like delivery takes a while. The ecology part makes sense to me, but even at 50 years lifespan the cost works out about the same as lead figuring in 50 year life vs. 10 year life for deep lead. It last 5 times as long but costs 5 times as much.. if that is the case from a pure economic point of view I'm inclined to go with the one that requires less investment up front.
That NiFe stuff does sound awesome, I might go that route later for something where budget and time frame allows. Looks like delivery takes a while. The ecology part makes sense to me, but even at 50 years lifespan the cost works out about the same as lead figuring in 50 year life vs. 10 year life for deep lead. It last 5 times as long but costs 5 times as much.. if that is the case from a pure economic point of view I'm inclined to go with the one that requires less investment up front.
liveforphysics
100 TW
vanilla ice said:
vanilla ice said:
Keep in mind, as you found out with your lead crapping out from abuse, with lead you really only get to use about 50% of your capacity at the most if you want to make it last, and if you're drawing it rapidly, Peukert effect eats into that badly as well.
With NiFe, you can use the entire amount of energy storage you paid for. Overcharge to 120%, drain to 0%, they don't care. In fact, if you wanted to balance them, you can just short them out and drain them to zero volts, then hook up the charger. Or, badly over charge them until they start to bubble, (an equalizing charge), and you've also balanced them with no damage done (other than a perhaps needing a bit of water if you bubbled them for hours).
NiFe is the last time you ever have to dick around with a storage battery.
But... I can understand if costs are really tight or whatever and you just want to get something working for a few years, lead would save quite a bit of money.
vanilla ice
1 MW
Well this time I need something setup by next week and the NiFe place is pre-order import from China. Not that it would've made a difference. 
Local crown guy offered waived core and free delivery. I'm hoping the true deeps will do better than the marine hybird ones did. I've read a big range of lifespan expectancies for true deeps anywhere from 5 to 20 years (anybody share their experience?). From cost checking, price wasn't really much more for deeps compared to the lighter hybrid ones. Appreciate all the info tx LFP & TD.
If I do power for home I'll definitely be looking at NiFe.. what a cool name for a chemistry btw. I'm going to call them up and find out about Cmax and peukert on them. Wiki says the Cmax is not good. Also says there is a US supplier.
Local crown guy offered waived core and free delivery. I'm hoping the true deeps will do better than the marine hybird ones did. I've read a big range of lifespan expectancies for true deeps anywhere from 5 to 20 years (anybody share their experience?). From cost checking, price wasn't really much more for deeps compared to the lighter hybrid ones. Appreciate all the info tx LFP & TD.
If I do power for home I'll definitely be looking at NiFe.. what a cool name for a chemistry btw. I'm going to call them up and find out about Cmax and peukert on them. Wiki says the Cmax is not good. Also says there is a US supplier.
vanilla ice
1 MW
Made in Montana:
http://www.zappworks.com/battery_prices.htm
specs
http://www.zappworks.com/battery_specs.htm
http://www.zappworks.com/battery_prices.htm
specs
http://www.zappworks.com/battery_specs.htm
TylerDurden
100 GW
IIRC, Crown moved a plant back from Mexico to USA... Win-Win.vanilla ice said:
If you know any engineers in the b'cast or telecom industries, they might be able to point you to the deals on flooded nickels (they often use em for backup).
vanilla ice
1 MW
Less than $500 total with tax for (same labeled cap.) what would have run over $4000 for FOB China NiFe.. and over $7000 for USA NiFe! I know its better but damn, that's a hard sell. There's got to be a way to bring the costs down on these awesome batteries.
Lock
100 MW
Finally... a Made in North America battery... :lol:
[youtube]K84PywMwjZg[/youtube]
http://www.noonco.com/edison/
http://www.nickel-iron-battery.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K84PywMwjZgvanilla ice said:
[youtube]K84PywMwjZg[/youtube]
http://www.noonco.com/edison/
http://www.nickel-iron-battery.com/
Lock
100 MW
vanilla ice said:
Ya might look at this too as an investment. Iron is cheap, but lead? Nickel? Half the lead production in the world is used for car batteries... Not a lotta talk on ES or elsewhere about future vehicles that run on lead batteries... :wink:
Prices of EVerythings `been running up these daze:
...but if I had to invest money in one or the other? Nickel will always have that scrap value...
LocK
vanilla ice
1 MW
I'm seriously considering building ten 5 gallon cells for a low output battery at home. Nickel cost is the biggest hurdle. So far the first store I'm seeing a few hundred bucks only gets you a 1.5mm "200 alloy" 1'x2' sheet and I don't know how far that would go. I need to check around for other sources.
BTW if I'm reading the cell characteristics right- you could run the cells double duty and turn solar overcharge current in to hydrogen. Topping off isn't a big deal, what to do with the H though..
BTW if I'm reading the cell characteristics right- you could run the cells double duty and turn solar overcharge current in to hydrogen. Topping off isn't a big deal, what to do with the H though..
Lock
100 MW
Believe ya should be looking for nickel *wire* to max surface area per volume. Edison used nickel flakes...vanilla ice said:
Wire cloth maybe:
http://www.wireclothman.com/
Yah, seems a shame to waste the H
L
yopappamon
10 kW
So why did the lead acid battery win over the NiFe battery? Efficiency? Self discharge rate?
vanilla ice
1 MW
Lead wins because its $400 versus over $4000 for NiFe. Discharge rate isn't really an issue for me, but lead has the advantage there too. Did I mention I had them the next day, would have had to wait weeks for the NiFe. Maybe months. And efficiency.. not an issue for my use either, but yes lead wins that one too from what I've read.
Its funny lock mentions investing, because at the prices the NiFe runs that is exactly what I feel like I'm doing. Monthly payments for a freaking battery.. I just want something that works for a reasonable cost! I can see paying two to four times as much for the advantages NiFe does offer. Maybe even six times, but not ten times. That is too much to ask. And the US made NiFe is closer to twenty times the cost than ten.
BTW thank you TD for the heads up on crown.
Its funny lock mentions investing, because at the prices the NiFe runs that is exactly what I feel like I'm doing. Monthly payments for a freaking battery.. I just want something that works for a reasonable cost!
I can see paying two to four times as much for the advantages NiFe does offer. Maybe even six times, but not ten times. That is too much to ask. And the US made NiFe is closer to twenty times the cost than ten. BTW thank you TD for the heads up on crown.
