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Noobie planning an Electric bike with >30 mph

999zip999 said:
Hooligan bike first ride and you don't like it.
Just a first bike with good battery. And get started.


Well what's not to like about it? The non emission? The commute for almost free?
Ability to have fun while commuting?

The only thing that might turn me off would be to get a low end low powered e-bike. I am sure I then would quit after 1 ride. :)
 
macribs said:
999zip999 said:
Hooligan bike first ride and you don't like it.
Just a first bike with good battery. And get started.


Well what's not to like about it? The non emission? The commute for almost free?
Ability to have fun while commuting?

The only thing that might turn me off would be to get a low end low powered e-bike. I am sure I then would quit after 1 ride. :)


I wouldn't consider $4-$5 thousand dollars a free commute.
At current exchange rates $4-$5k euro is even less free. :D

Have you ever ridden a powered bicycle at 50kph? I can assure you that you won't be turned off.
1500-2000w is all you need to giggle like a schoolgirl when it's in a lightweight bicycle. That can be accomplished for a much lower price( less than half ) than a 80+kph hooligan bike.
 
Well any mean of transport is not free. But a light EV is the closest thing to free.
I pay about 0.28 NOK pr kWh, or 0.04496408 U.S. dollars kWh.
I would say that is pretty close to free. And the gas prices in norway are 10.277504 U.S. dollars a gallon compared to your 3 or 4 dollars a gallon.
So electricity is pretty darn cheap in Norway because we have all those waterfalls creating green electricity. Which makes it difficult for politicians to tax the electricity as hard like they do gas and diesel.

Yeah I could go for a Leaf or a Tesla or even a Zero or Brammo. But that means parking fees, insurance, toll, VAT every other year inspection to keep plates and all that on top of the initial buy. Or I could go solely by bus (not even feasible where i live), but that darn bus is expensive as well. What is left is an e-bike.

So yeah. The build costs are really like peanuts compared to other possible solutions. I am just an average Joe, I am not loaded with cash and I have the same challenges at the end of each month as many of you might have, with little cash left before next pay check. But that does not mean I can not prioritize a build. Compared to a getting an electric car or MC the end result is still great even if I end up spending 5K on the build.

And it will be a challenge and great fun to complete a self made ride for every day use.
 
The LEV is a super category for the commuter giving power and versatility with out the traditional cost of of a regular vehicle. As long as you don't get in trouble for having too much power behind it. I for see an expansion in the laws around them in the near future. Ebikes are interesting because bikes are such an established pseudo-pedestrian transport form with a motor tacked on it and the electronic components can be hidden if your not looking for too mush power. I have been involved in a few electric vehicle conversions but yet to build a ebike. I have been a little amused at the elitist response from some community members who think their experience with bolting a few motors on bike frames and maybe building a small battery pack puts them on a pedestal from others with a far greater understanding of the equipment and dynamics but not actually built a rudimentary ebike before. The bike I'm starting with is probably more advanced than most of the people giving me shit will ever undertake let a lone complete.
 
macribs said:
Well any mean of transport is not free. But a light EV is the closest thing to free.
I pay about 0.28 NOK pr kWh, or 0.04496408 U.S. dollars kWh.
I would say that is pretty close to free. And the gas prices in norway are 10.277504 U.S. dollars a gallon compared to your 3 or 4 dollars a gallon.
So electricity is pretty darn cheap in Norway because we have all those waterfalls creating green electricity. Which makes it difficult for politicians to tax the electricity as hard like they do gas and diesel.

Yeah I could go for a Leaf or a Tesla or even a Zero or Brammo. But that means parking fees, insurance, toll, VAT every other year inspection to keep plates and all that on top of the initial buy. Or I could go solely by bus (not even feasible where i live), but that darn bus is expensive as well. What is left is an e-bike.

So yeah. The build costs are really like peanuts compared to other possible solutions. I am just an average Joe, I am not loaded with cash and I have the same challenges at the end of each month as many of you might have, with little cash left before next pay check. But that does not mean I can not prioritize a build. Compared to a getting an electric car or MC the end result is still great even if I end up spending 5K on the build.

And it will be a challenge and great fun to complete a self made ride for every day use.

It seems a fairly common affliction for people to way underestimate the cost per km for their ebike, ICE vehicles as well.
Build a hooligan bike and use it as intended and you'll burn things up, that is a big cost. The new rear tire once month is a cost. Batteries are a consumable item, that's a cost. Maintenance on bicycle forks and shocks, bushings and bearings, brakes, etc all in increased need to deal with the strain that 80+kph hooligan bike and all the associated weight increase puts on component not designed for such abuse, that's a big cost unless you can rebuild things yourself.
Ebikes are cheaper than a car that's for certain, but they are far from free.

By the way, we(Canada) produce a lot of gas and oil in this country, no problem for politicians to tax the shit out of us. About $1.33/litre cdn for 87octane down the street, 91 octane is closer to $1.60.
In Ontario electricity is between $0.075 and $0.135 depending on time of day, we produce plenty, no breaks there either.
Legacy costs the politicos call it. :roll:
 
I know, we too produce large quantities of oil and gas. In fact we are net exporter and export a lot more fuel related products then what we consume. Still no brake on taxes. We have waterfalls "behind every other twist and turn" on the country roads so all that green energy makes it tougher to tax hard. Partly due to wide variations in temperatures during winter where the coldest areas north of the arctic circle have weeks or even months with cold like 20-30 below. Also our inland climate in higher regions are similar during winter and they also need a break on the taxes on electricity or I suspect we would see a dramatic increase in crimes and prostitution in order to pay the electrical bill, would be like that movie where 2 friends decided to make a porn to pay there bills :D

Well enough with the rant and digression. :) Got carried away sry.

Yeah for tiers I am not so sure about bike tires. Leaning towards motorcycle or moped tires. Counter steer you know. Better grips and less wear then bike tires. Those tires are made for leaning in turns and twists, and even that the rubber is way softer then car tires they are still more durable then bike tires. And less prone to puncturing, leaking and flats.

One of the reasons I don't rush momentarily to get all parts and start building is to gather enough info to make an educated decision on the correct parts to get. And to make sure all the parts can handle and withstand the intended use over time. And I will for sure do temp monitoring via sensors and program cut off way before meltdown is a fact. I will not go flat out up a long and steep climb just to push the limits of what the system can take. There seems to be a lot of people that have done that and that is why I am here, to learn and read up so I can avoid costly mistakes. I do not need to duplicate that cos there are so many clever builders here that have done the grunt work and have already tested out what is possible.

With quality parts there should be no reason to fry a motor and controller every year. If you know they both handle the load you will operate within safe limits all the time. Sure that means you will not be able to WOT all the time, but you can do as long as the system will allow until heat starts building up.

I will expect several years for both controller and motor. Batteries might not be that durable, not if I go for the extra grunt from lico's. But hey just the insurance and road tolls I save would let me get a new pack each year. And from what I save on service, gas and parking fees alone, that probably will pay for a very long holiday for all of us.
 
macribs said:
... I am not so sure about bike tires. Leaning towards motorcycle or moped tires. Counter steer you know. Better grips and less wear then bike tires. Those tires are made for leaning in turns and twists, and even that the rubber is way softer then car tires they are still more durable then bike tires. And less prone to puncturing, leaking and flats...
A bicycle tire is so much lighter, giving much better acceleration. A robust 3" 2 ply DH racing tire is 1.5Kg, the equivalent in motorcycle tires would be around 6Kg if you buy the lightest. Bicycle tires are available with softer compound than any motorcycle tires other than 6" and up racing slicks, so better traction available on your ebike with bicycle tires. A motorcycle tire has a longer lifespan and better puncture resistance, those are the only advantages.

Then, considering the extra weight of motorcycle rims, you will be carrying so much extra pounds of wheels that it would mean about the equal weight of 24s 3p of RC lipo. Add to this simple math the fact that extra weight also means extra power required in acceleration, you will need more batteries to compensate the loss of range and this will add even more weight. I would add the need for heavier brakes for lesser performance due to greater bike mass and cynetic inertia of heavier wheels, you are entering a power and heat escalade that you can't win. Your bike will suffer a loss of performance, agility, efficiency, and it will not be able to ride as long before overheating.

IMO, motorcycle wheels are interesting only on a 40+ HP mid drive build, or a specialty bike that has to ride extreme conditions where wheel reliability is much more important than performance.
 
Well our roads are not straight and nicely paved. There are potholes so big you will not surface within a few hours and and plenty of tight curves, which will need the bike to go steep leaning when counter steering. I must say for speed above 30 mph I will feel a whole lot safer with better rims and tires. Seems there are more then a few here that have done the same with their build.

It might not give me a "bomber-bike" but it will provide durability and grip without changing 2-3 sets of rear tires each year.

I will try to look for the lightest combo of moped wheels and tires to see how much weight difference there will be.
Maybe an easier way to deal with the weight issue is to go on a diet. I could stand to loose about 50 lbs. :D
 
Read entire thread as I found the question and answer reading like a great FAQ. As the posts piled up it is clear the advise, sharing of experience and expertise has helped the OP step back and rethink the original and changing design targets.

One aspect of your objectives remains unclear - What is your target time window to have this bike built and solid, ready for daily commuting duty? As stated your journey thus far mirrors many who join the ranks of DIY e-bikers. Same for me. It has been stated numerous times and in different ways that there is a lot of knowledge and experience required to build a solid DIY ebike.

As you live in upper latitudes I assume the daylight and weather becomes less conducive for enjoying and possibly even making a daily bike commute. If you plan on getting on the road before things get unpleasant than you really have little choice but to take the advice and start small and then next year/spring you will have built sufficient knowledge and experience to build the hot rod commuter/fun bike.

Again repeating was has been stated is the time and effort one has to devote before knowing what you don't know and what mistakes you would have made without it. You can spend literally a few hours every day for several months before you have sufficient mastery of the basic electrical and mechanical much less sufficient knowledge about sourcing options and what works best for your build. And then there is the very complicated interplay between the components and the combinations that form the base of solid ebike design.

After several months of daily research and study, it is finally time when I feel near the crest of the basic hill to know what makes a solid design and specific components to bring the design to life as a solid real world ebike. Your journey may be shorter as you did not explore non hub options such as mid drives and the various motor/controller configurations such as RC motors and such.

If you need to get on the road quickly, my recommendation would be buy a rear hub kit with all the bits except maybe the battery. But you need to figure out the performance envelope you need: speed on flat and inclines, and distance. Just make sure you have enough juice to make the return trip with some to spare for windy days and the unrecognized low tire pressure trips. This is the best value and least risky and most reliable option. All others incur added time, risks, costs, errors, design flaws, etc.

One other topic not debated is the quality of road you mentioned and what a reasonable safe speed threshold one can expect. If the the road surface is not totally smooth and free of crack, dips, potholes, etc then going over 30mph is just asking to get you a trip to the hospital given the mileage you plan to cover on these roads.

Adding MC tires and rims increases weight a lot, increases rolling resistance, and increased wind resistance to a lesser degree. As stated all these increase the need for increased power to the wheel and energy capacity.

You are making good progress but not ready to custom design a high performance bike yet. This is a fact if you want to maximized your spend as the lack of knowledge is going to lead you to some bad design choices and bad component selection and purchase. Either buy an engineered solution or spend a few more months building your knowledge base before writing checks. Good luck.
 
macribs said:
Well our roads are not straight and nicely paved. There are potholes so big you will not surface within a few hours and and plenty of tight curves, which will need the bike to go steep leaning when counter steering. I must say for speed above 30 mph I will feel a whole lot safer with better rims and tires....
I ride 60mph on paved road with curves and potholes on worn out DH racing tires, and I never felt the need for heavy motorcycle rubber. That is a personnal matter, but weight never made a better ride other than on a highway with side wind. Freeriders do hit the 100 down a ski slope on DH racing tires, that is making them pretty safe at 30 on a paved road.

Most of the fun of a powerful ebike is in its light weight. Light handling and silent power, that is very addictive :wink:
 
Well if I can't save weight on wheels I might try to save weight on other areas.
What about carbon fiber frame? I've got an offer for a frame a DH frame with carbon swing arm.

I think I read somewhere here that carbon frame would work just fine, but maybe not carbon swingarm. Then I did some googling and see several places people say carbon is as strong as steel. Don't know if that is the case. But as you said if them downhillers are doing speeds more then 100 downhill in a skiresort them frames and swingarm should be tough as nails?

I don't have the specs at hand but I think it was like a total weight of just below 3 kilos with an air damper for the swing arm.

Would that be possible for an e-bike? I could do a carbon finer battery box as well, that might even strengthen the frame even more.
What you think?
 
In Melbourne we're hit with congestion tax as well (AUD$1300 / year just for a car park in the city)... as well as tolls, and petrol is currently over AUD$1.40/L.

...


Thats right.... US$1200 a year just to park in the city (The actual cost of parking is extra).


Council has got to make money somehow.
 
Hey look...someone is trying to restrict the imagination of another members designs. It's ok though cause he threw a smiley in there to be cute.
 
That's not someone. That's MadRhino.
No one does big offroad like MadRhino.

Anarchistic thinking is cute and all, but engineering is science. It doesn't care for the opinions of humans.
 
Paradigm said:
Hey look...someone is trying to restrict the imagination of another members designs. It's ok though cause he threw a smiley in there to be cute.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=62140

Samd said:
. . . .engineering is science. It doesn't care for the opinions of humans.

What a coincidence. Neither does Paradigm. Does that mean Paradigm IS science? But seriously, you have a quote worthy of becoming a truism.
 
...or rather Neil DGT does. I need to credit him with apologies for rewording the meme.

post-14691-The-good-thing-about-science-i-r2G6.jpeg

I'm a mechanical engineer. Listening to people rant on about "not restricting creativity" is tedious when it's actually just them avoiding using proper engineering terms in the hope that they'll come up with a new form of design that defies physics.

"You show me that it works and how it works
And when I've recovered from the shock
I will take a compass and carve Fancy That on the side of my cock."
- Tim Minchin: Storm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U
 
Paradigm said:
Hey look...someone is trying to restrict the imagination of another members designs. It's ok though cause he threw a smiley in there to be cute.

Samd said:
That's not someone. That's MadRhino.
No one does big offroad like MadRhino.

Anarchistic thinking is cute and all, but engineering is science. It doesn't care for the opinions of humans.

His quote was directed at me. He believes, or is trying to build evidence, that I stifle imagination and derail threads.
Watch this character. It's been quite the show.
 
I'm seeing that now. It's Storm all over again...
No one's mentioned homeopathy here yet.
I'll set the timer ... :pancake:
 
Wow what a drama taking place here. Is this behavior normal or is it me getting on peoples nerves?
Look can we skip all the Off Topic and drama and just stay on topic?
I am not trying to be rude but this forum should be about sharing the knowledge and the spirit of EV's. Not about personal attacks.

So can we please do without name calling and insults? Forums should be a fun experience, a place to unwind and to harvest from the wealth of skilled and technical know how from advanced members. Not a place where one need to pop a few anxiety pills before daring to post in the fear of getting flamed.

My2C
 
No drama, only different opinions, yet expressed sometimes in a manner that may seem rude to some. There are many reasons for that. Most of the time it is in translation, since this forum gathers people from everywhere on the sphere and english is not our usual language. Sometimes there were hard feelings on another thread that may travel into another, or whatever...

Here is THE best place to gather information about EV building, because you can find first hand opinions from so many builders who have the experience in various building style, performance and requirements. You have to make an opinion for yourself, to build what you need with success. I was one like you, who had a goal, gathering information, and curious enough to surpass my goal at first try. Now I build off road bikes with performance I never believed I could achieve only a few years ago. On the street they are fun like riding a racing MX in town, without the noise and smoke, without the motorcycle restrictions, license plates, driver licence, insurance, helmet, parking. I enjoy being light weight, fast, agile, silent... and FREE

Your goal may be different. Everyone here has his own preference, his own way to build for his purpose, and expresses his own point of view about what is best to build. You read, you parse, you make your choice of a receipt for a first build, then after riding it you can improve and build a second one that better suits your new perfectly defined preferences.
 
One of the problems with motorcycle rims and tires on a bicycle is Rotational mass. Another is unsprung mass. Basically, the more mass you have, the harder it is to change it's speed and direction. This science behind this is is Moment of inertia. In laymen's terms, a heavy wheel is much harder to spin up, causing slower acceleration. much harder to stop spinning, hurting braking performance, and harder to keep planted to the ground, hurting suspension performance. The difference between a 2 pound wheel and a 10 pound wheel is staggering.

As for Carbon fiber frames, not a good idea. Tensile strength of CF is stronger than steel by weight, but then some forms of glass are also stronger than steel. Would you want a bike frame made of glass? I hate to shatter your ideas, but the idea is just cracked. :mrgreen:
There are many different ways to evaluate a building material. raw tensile strength by weight is just one. you also need to know what the torsional rigidity of the material is, what it's fatigue rate is, what it's compressive strength is, and what it's failure mode is.

One of the best built CF bikes I've ever seen was the prototype Phasor Cycle. The guy who's user name I forgot built it as part of a project here a few years back. If you want to dig around for the thread, it's an interesting read. the design and build quality were outstanding. Ultimately, the frame cracked. They developed the idea into a production frame, but it's steel now, and much better.
 
Yeah I've read that thread. He build that bikes as a project for his engineering study I think.
And I can not remember reading anywhere that the frame cracked or that the swing arm cracked. He even did weak spot computerized simulation and stress testing on his universitiy's computer rigs. AFAIK that frame and swing arm was still working just fine when I was sold last fall. And that is after years of abuse, I've seen videos of him doing 8-10 feets vertical drops landing on flat ground and continue to beat on his carbon bike. Now that vertical drop could easily have damaged other bikes made from steel or alloy. Guess my point is that he knew what he was doing when he build that. His design and simulation in fact did prove that carbon fibre does work for e-bikes.

I will have to look up his threads and re read to see if I left out anything but if my memory is correct their was no crack or damage to the carbon phasor.
I think feasability, build process and also price was the real reassons to not choose carbon fiber for a production frame.

Comparing carbon fiber to glass - well I didn't get that. I've never seen strong structures made of glass. But it is common to see sail masts in carbon fiber on regatta sailors, monoqouce carbon frames on sports cars and racing cars. Some hi end builds custom cars even uses carbon fiber mid shaft on a 1.000 HP engine with torque like an 18 wheeler.

Haven't seen glass been used as core material in any of those areas.

As I said I have equipment for molding, just haven't done anything in carbon fiber before. Only fiber glass. But I have vacuum for injection molding. And I have access to an autoclave for curing.
 
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