Olevin Power- Enerland - A123 from HobbyKing?

[AndyH]

HobbyKing sez:

A123 have started producing their cells under another brand 'Olevin Power'.
It's the same product, built by A123, but without the heavy price-tag.
These packs are great for harsh environments and can be 10C charged while they're still hot from a 40C discharge cycle.
They come with tabs pre-welded.
Check out the new Olevin Power A123 cells today!

They're marked $19.50 each, but they're $7.99 (or less?) in the shopping cart.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=16575
Are these the real deal?

 

[auraslip]

I dunnu, but cell_man has em for like $6 bucks each

 

[Byte]

Anyone knows how these cells perform vs the expensive A123 cells?

 

[webfootguy]

I ordered a few for testing. I have lots of real A123 cells so I can do a valid comparison.

 

[webfootguy]

Ok, my couple of test cells arrived last week so I found time this week to run a discharge test. Cell arrived at about 50% charge according to how long it took to charge to 3.65 volts (and current dropped to 50ma). I discharged at a sedate 1C (2.3A) using a CBAII. Both cells discharged at around 2.225 Ah which is pretty close to spec and within margin of error based on single charge/discharge cycle and temperature at time of discharge. I did not measure IR as I did this at work and the tool to do that is at home. I'd say the cell looks like the real deal and not a fake based on performance and packaging (it has the bar-code for example).

 

[webfootguy]

Here is a picture of the package:

 

[Ypedal]

Got a snapshot of the spot welds and tabs ?

 

[auraslip]

I'd also suggest you try out the 15c cells made by DLG and sold by k2 here in america. http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/435831668/High_Rate_LiFe_PO4_Lithium_Li.html

They (dlg via their alibaba page) quoted me $350 for a 16s5p 48v10ah pack including bms and charger...which comes out to around $4 a cell. I think john holmes tested them and they lived up to their 15c rating!

 

[cell_man]

A bit of marketing BS going on there methinks. They are very likely the same cells I and some others sell with some extra heatshrink added on top.

"10C charge straight after a 40C discharge", yeah right!. They are good, but they will not last long if treated like that.

 

[johnrobholmes]

I'm still running my k2 cell packs. They are on my daily driver "old trusty" actually. I got the low discharge versions and built em up 4p. I guess they are about three years old now?

 

[johnrobholmes]

These are the cells I have been using with no bms http://www.peakbattery.com/products-26650EV.html

I don't overdischarge them, I don't overcharge them. They are solid low rate cells.

 

[webfootguy]

Got a snapshot of the spot welds and tabs ?

These are from my cell phone camera:

 

[joeag]

A bit of marketing BS going on there methinks. They are very likely the same cells I and some others sell with some extra heatshrink added on top.

"10C charge straight after a 40C discharge", yeah right!. They are good, but they will not last long if treated like that.

Cell_man can you contact me on PM - my outgoing PM seems screwed up, maybe I can reply to you. I would like to place an order. Thanks!

 

[DOMEPEACE]

according to all the info i could dig up, these ARE LEGIT A123's. however they are made in china, and china is the origonal reason they could not meet demand of enerland and A123 racing. according to the reviews they perform exactly the same. any performance specs from anyone who has these? temp @ burst and max C, full charge V/A, etc... one thing im really concerned about is that these cells are quoted weighing in @ 105g, the origonal M1 A123 cell only weighed 78g with tabs! so what is giving these batteries 30g of chunkiness? that's over 25% weight increace!! and why can't A123 systems just pump out cells and take cold hard $$$ for em? why do they have to be so F***in shady??(i know its production volume, but i need batteries one way or the other and id rather give them my cash)
also about your "authentic" battery, www.enerland.com on the top, but enerland has been closed by A123 themselves. they are damn good fakes if they aren't authentic. the tabs don't cover the vent holes, electronic barcode on the cell metal, equivalent discharge rates. I think these may be version 2.0 out of the china factory. I also highly doubt A123 systems is behind their construction.

 

[neptronix]

.... and that's why a lot of us went to lipo, my friend.

It is a real shame how badly they screwed up from a business perspective. They have a great lithium chemistry. The best chemistry i can think of, when you add safety, low internal resistance, and amazing cycle life all in one package.

 

[DOMEPEACE]

.... and that's why a lot of us went to lipo, my friend.

It is a real shame how badly they screwed up from a business perspective. They have a great lithium chemistry. The best chemistry i can think of, when you add safety, low internal resistance, and amazing cycle life all in one package.

exactly. it is very rare when a genuine new product comes to stores and satisfies our needs, A123 delivered. they messed up sick pulling out of the hobby market. their stock has dropped 50% in 4 months!!! i know they are feeling it, probably just playing corporate chess before curbstomping the battery market.
as much as i would love to hold out for US made A123 M1 or prismatic pouches, i fear its impossible. i need a huge amount of power very soon, and i doubt we will see an authentic market entry by A123 until at least 2013. (I personally) chose to go with TURNIGY NANO-TECH 45-90c 5000mah cells. anyone used these before? and if ya hav, how do they stack up to A123? PICS AND SHIT COMING IN JULY!!!

 

[auraslip]

(I personally) chose to go with TURNIGY NANO-TECH 45-90c 5000mah cells. anyone used these before? and if ya hav, how do they stack up to A123?

There is no comparison. The nano-techs blow a123 away by all metrics except cycle life! You will have trouble finding a suitable BMS for the lipo though.

 

[neptronix]

The nanotech lipo obliterates A123 as far as output goes.
Same safety issues as lipo, lifespan? not sure yet, it's too new.

Here is LiveForPhysics cranking over an Acura Integra with a little 4AH pack.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkKRqaNPIBE[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvdObMLgHYE&feature=related[/youtube]
^--caution.. gets LOUD

~45 amp load. Battery drops about 1 volt relative to the resting voltage on a 2.65Ah pack O_O

 

[neptronix]

There is no comparison. The nano-techs blow a123 away by all metrics except cycle life! You will have trouble finding a suitable BMS for the lipo though.

For cells like this you will have already forgotten about a BMS entirely. Not even worth investing in. Not for cells that can charge at 10C and discharge at 90C or above.

 

[auraslip]

For cells like this you will have already forgotten about a BMS entirely. Not even worth investing in. Not for cells that can charge at 10C and discharge at 90C or above.

If you spent as much time actually reading and learning as you did posting ...

 

[neptronix]

For cells like this you will have already forgotten about a BMS entirely. Not even worth investing in. Not for cells that can charge at 10C and discharge at 90C or above.

If you spent as much time actually reading and learning as you did posting ...

Have you found a BMS for a pack that could discharge hundreds of amps?
One that didn't cost more than the batteries themselves?

Wasn't it LFP and a few other long time members that lambasted you for trying to find a BMS for lipo?

 

[DOMEPEACE]

[/quote]There is no comparison. The nano-techs blow a123 away by all metrics except cycle life! You will have trouble finding a suitable BMS for the lipo though.[/quote]

so all im looking at losing is cycle life? not bad but they will have to be monitored carefully for my application. my batteries for dummies book says LiCo is explosive, and all the fun videos of fire-spitting, exploding li(xx) prove it. word up to both you for the info.

I can do many things with some old chargers, my basic stamp collection, stampworks project breadboard, spare breadboard, and assorted electronic components( maybe even a supercap or two if these batteries really are massive c CHG/DCHG) <- electronics major

so an icharger1010b+ with whatever accessories and whatnot wont cut it? what about the turnigy 4x6s lipo charger and lipo doctor? hoping to run 10s10p (36v @ 50a out of these poor unfortunate cells ) breaking the pack down into 4x 5(cells) would allow me to use alot of the available chargers without having to make a STAMP powered adapter. proposed cell setup: 2(5s1p)+2(1s5p)= 10s10p @ 36v @ 50a w/50c discharge should provide enough power for 1hr for (x4) TURNIGY 63-64-230kv 3150w brushless motor. needless to say im building a monster!!!

(you know what a 1010b+ is so i wont bother listing it)
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=11170 (the turnigy 4x6s)
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=10328 (the lipo doctor lol)
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7710 (proposed power plant) (1of4!)

 

[Hillhater]

. proposed cell setup: 2(5s1p)+2(1s5p)= 10s10p @ 36v @ 50a w/50c

care to try that again ?? :?
Are you saying you plan a 36 V , 50 Ahr pack ? .... using 20 x 5s packs ?

 

[neptronix]

There is no comparison. The nano-techs blow a123 away by all metrics except cycle life! You will have trouble finding a suitable BMS for the lipo though.[/quote]

so all im looking at losing is cycle life? not bad but they will have to be monitored carefully for my application. my batteries for dummies book says LiCo is explosive, and all the fun videos of fire-spitting, exploding li(xx) prove it. word up to both you for the info.

I can do many things with some old chargers, my basic stamp collection, stampworks project breadboard, spare breadboard, and assorted electronic components( maybe even a supercap or two if these batteries really are massive c CHG/DCHG) <- electronics major

so an icharger1010b+ with whatever accessories and whatnot wont cut it? what about the turnigy 4x6s lipo charger and lipo doctor? hoping to run 10s10p (36v @ 50a out of these poor unfortunate cells ) breaking the pack down into 4x 5(cells) would allow me to use alot of the available chargers without having to make a STAMP powered adapter. proposed cell setup: 2(5s1p)+2(1s5p)= 10s10p @ 36v @ 50a w/50c discharge should provide enough power for 1hr for (x4) TURNIGY 63-64-230kv 3150w brushless motor. needless to say im building a monster!!!

(you know what a 1010b+ is so i wont bother listing it)
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=11170 (the turnigy 4x6s)
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=10328 (the lipo doctor lol)
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7710 (proposed power plant) (1of4!)[/quote]

DOMEPEACE: yes. lipos are explosive / flamey if extremely mistreated. Current ones from hobbyking are amazingly resilient to user error. They do give you a warning by puffing.

If you start with good known packs and sort out potential duds, and can replace a cell every blue moon, lipo is super easy to live with.
There are a lot of threads on this. Read more.

As for chargers, if you are only doing 12s, the Hyperion 1420 is the charger to get. It can pump out 30amps and get your 12s pack charged quite quickly. Wouldn't waste my money on an iCharger 1010b+ for 12s; you will have to break your serial connection and go parallel each time and the other 4 cell capability of the unit will be wasted.

Don't waste your time on the turnigy 5 x 6s unit. Slow charger, low quality, and doesn't charge anything in series.

Battery medics are kinda cool but i just use a celllog 8s to check my cells and charge to 4.15v. If my cells are outta wack, *then* i will balance it on the balance charger. Otherwise it is a set and forget kinda affair. I have a watt-meter and stop discharging when the battery is at 3.6v per cell resting. My batteries never get disbalanced that way. Even though i have abused the hell out of them..

If you are going over 14S though, those battery medics are one of the best ways to do balances.

That's how steveo managed his 72v lipo pack.

 

[Xrain]

For cells like this you will have already forgotten about a BMS entirely. Not even worth investing in. Not for cells that can charge at 10C and discharge at 90C or above.

If you spent as much time actually reading and learning as you did posting ...

Have you found a BMS for a pack that could discharge hundreds of amps?
One that didn't cost more than the batteries themselves?

Wasn't it LFP and a few other long time members that lambasted you for trying to find a BMS for lipo?

I think what he was saying is, BMS's above ebike level generally do not run the current to run the motor through the actual BMS. Instead they only monitor the HVC and LVC, and shunt current/turn off charger when its above the HVC. And when it hits the LVC it turns off the main contactors for the pack. So its not actually the BMS itself limiting the current, rather just turning off the pack/ or telling the controller to stop outputting power. So you can use the same bms to regulate a 9,000 amp discharge pack as you would a 400 amp. You would just need to size your contactors appropriately.

LFP dosn't like BMS's all that much for nano-tech/lipo applications since in a properly designed pack the cells rarely fall out of balance anyway. So it's kinda a waste of money/time/electricity to actively balance the pack.

BMS's are a love/hate item. The idea behind them is excellent, it just happens a lot of pack failures are related to the BMS going wonky.

Edit:
As for a large pack BMS Elithion's will run you ~$1200 for a 48 channel bms. And is a good place to start looking for others. http://elithion.com/