Parting Out: 22kWh EV Battery (LG Chem P1 Cells)

[RecklessMaker]

Parting out the old battery from my 2012 Ford Focus Electric.

Technical Details
Module Configurations: 4s5p (full), 2s5p (half)
Cells are marked LGX P1.
Nominal cell capacity: 14.9Ah/53.5Wh (calculations below)
Actual Capacity: ~10.8Ah/40.7Wh
Approximate Dimensions (Length × Width × Height): 280×65×190mm (half modules) 280×130×190mm (full modules)
Balance Connectors: Molex Micro-Fit (schematic below)

Spoiler: capacity calculations

Nominal pack capacity (when new) was 23kWh. Given the pack configuration was 86s5p, nominal cell capacity (when new) is either (assuming a nominal cell voltage of 3.6V).

Spoiler: Balance Connector Schematics

Price
4s5p modules (20 available): $160 $100 each
2s5p modules (3 available): $80 $50 each
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Shipping: Pickup only

Flavor Text
Modules are in good shape and work perfectly. They still have lots of life left, they just can't be used in the car anymore due to a design flaw with the cooling system.

Spoiler: design flaw details for fellow nerds

Originally there were heat exchanger plates between each cell. Ford connected these with slip-fit tube segments, but neglected to clamp the cell stacks. Since each cell stack contains hundreds of cells, each cell only has to expand a tiny amount (like what happens over time with normal use) to cause enough displacement to pull the coolant pipes apart. The "fix" is to remove the heat exchangers between each cell, but this makes the car almost undriveable in hot climates.

These are pickup only due to hazardous material shipping regulations. I also have all of the wiring, busbars, links, BMS modules, and cooling components available on request.

Paul

 

[amberwolf]

How well was the pack performing when pulled from the EV? (how much voltage sag under how much load, if you have that data available)

I'm curious because I'm in phoenix (metrocenter area) and if these are still working well enough, I'd be interested in some to test with the SB Cruiser and to use in the smaller spare trike I'm designing now. Not sure I can afford more than one module****, though; and I'd have to rewire it into 14s1p from the 4s5p configuration.
https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/t...d-heavy-cargo-trike-dog-carrier.67833/page-48
At present I'm using aging EIG NMC cells in 14s2p packs, which are pretty large and heavy (almost 40lbs, IIRC). If these perform well enough vs the EIG then I could use just one 14s1p pack.


****unless you might consider a trade like some 4s5p modules for a motorcycle / scooter motor with tire from an E-grom, or something like that. Amberwolf's Cloudwalker Cargo Bike

Originally there were heat exchanger plates between each cell. Ford connected these with slip-fit tube segments, but neglected to clamp the cell stacks. Since each cell stack contains hundreds of cells, each cell only has to expand a tiny amount (like what happens over time with normal use) to cause enough displacement to pull the coolant pipes apart. The "fix" is to remove the heat exchangers between each cell, but this makes the car almost undriveable in hot climates.

Does that mean that packs like this get coolant leaking into them? (something that I could then keep an eye out for damage from if I run across them again in the future).

 

[RecklessMaker]

I don't have any data on voltage sag, but the capacity was still very good for 12 year old cells. I'd estimate at least 80% of new. I'm not willing to trade though, and I don't think rewiring the modules is possible; the cell tabs are ultrasonically welded to the busbars:
Regarding coolant damage: it's not a huge concern. Most 22kWh Ford Focus Electric packs being sold for scrap will likely have experienced coolant intrusion, but the coolant isn't especially corrosive. The car stops working not because the coolant damages the pack, but because it causes a loss of isolation between high voltage and chassis ground.

 

[amberwolf]

I don't have any data on voltage sag, but the capacity was still very good for 12 year old cells. I'd estimate at least 80% of new. I'm not willing to trade though, and I don't think rewiring the modules is possible; the cell tabs are ultrasonically welded to the busbars:View attachment 362034
Regarding coolant damage: it's not a huge concern. Most 22kWh Ford Focus Electric packs being sold for scrap will likely have experienced coolant intrusion, but the coolant isn't especially corrosive. The car stops working not because the coolant damages the pack, but because it causes a loss of isolation between high voltage and chassis ground.

Thanks for the closeup and info--that's useful!

Oh, rewiring is definitely possible. Cut (dremel, etc) between cells for the connections as needed, then crimp or bolt or even solder to the busbars (they look like tinned copper, but if they're not solderable, the other methods would still work).

So a 4s5p (20 cells) could be rewired as a 14s1p (traction) plus a 4s1p (lighting), with a couple spare cells in place but disconnected for later, as long as voltage sag is not too bad at <100A (I think my present setup is a max of around 80A, 40 for each phaserunner).

I'll have to look at my budget and work out what I can afford (or sell some stuff), then depending on where in Phoenix you're located, I could come by and buy a module or two.

 

[m640x]

What is the voltage and Ah of each "block"? As far as V and If I've done my math correct it's....
4S5P = 14.4V?
2S5P = 7.2V?

Thanks in advance for info. : )

 

[RecklessMaker]

What is the voltage and Ah of each "block"? As far as V and If I've done my math correct it's....
4S5P = 14.4V?
2S5P = 7.2V?

Thanks in advance for info. : )

Those voltages are correct, assuming a nominal cell voltage of 3.6V.
Capacity would be between 70 and 75 Ah per module (both configurations)

I have also dropped the price. I need these out of the (not air-conditioned) garage before summer hits.

 

[neptronix]

So you haven't done capacity tests?

13 year old cells are not going to have good capacity or IR just based on calendar life alone.
Might be useful for 'second life' purposes, or replacing faulty cells in the car in question, but my guess is these are pretty aged by lithium battery standards.

 

[DogDipstick]

How well was the pack performing when pulled from the EV? (how much voltage sag under how much load, if you have that data available)

If these perform well enough vs the EIG then I could use just one 14s1p pack.


*


Does that mean that packs like this get coolant leaking into them? (something that I could then keep an eye out for damage from if I run across them again in the future).

Yes they are excellent cells. Worth every cent if they are what the OP says.

They are the same as in the first gen Chevy Volt and a few volvos and a Renalut.

i have run them for almost eightyears now. Luke talked about em for eons a decade ago telling us they would last these 40K cycles. he did not lie.

IF the P1 revision is giving 15aH, its giving more than its OEM datasheet capacity.. which it should if its young.

Most I got out of a

used p1 = 14.5ah
used p1.5 = 15aH
used p1.7B = 15.5aH
NEW p2.7B = 25.8aH

yes the coolant damages them and yes dont buy any puffed ones ( look at the top near the tabs ) and yes if you want 40x of these Amber or Nep.. I'll send em to you for free. Free free free. I got a ton of the P1.5 and P1 cells sitting for the last few years... Not gonna do anything with them you can have em.

Only you two though. Not trying to undercut this guy. Good cells at a good price hell Im thinking bout buying some off him.

everyone else gotta buy em for 3x what this guyys charging oK?Lol.

 

[RecklessMaker]

Yes they are excellent cells. Worth every cent if they are what the OP says.

They are the same as in the first gen Chevy Volt and a few volvos and a Renalut.

i have run them for almost eightyears now. Luke talked about em for eons a decade ago telling us they would last these 40K cycles. he did not lie.

IF the P1 revision is giving 15aH, its giving more than its OEM datasheet capacity.. which it should if its young.

Most I got out of a

used p1 = 14.5ah
used p1.5 = 15aH
used p1.7B = 15.5aH
NEW p2.7B = 25.8aH

yes the coolant damages them and yes dont buy any puffed ones ( look at the top near the tabs ) and yes if you want 40x of these Amber or Nep.. I'll send em to you for free. Free free free. I got a ton of the P1.5 and P1 cells sitting for the last few years... Not gonna do anything with them you can have em.

Only you two though. Not trying to undercut this guy. Good cells at a good price hell Im thinking bout buying some off him.

everyone else gotta buy em for 3x what this guyys charging oK?Lol.

What is the datasheet capacity, charge rate, and discharge rate of these cells? I just finished putting together custom balance leads for capacity testing.

 

[RecklessMaker]

UPDATE
I have capacity tested 8 modules so far. Average per-cell capacity is 10.8Ah (range: 9.7-11.1) & 40.7Wh (range: 37.0-42.0). I will continue capacity testing the remaining modules as I did find one with a couple of weak cells. Once I've finished testing all the modules I will post the full spread of results. The price will also increase due to the time and effort required to do so lol. Discharge curves will be provided on request.

Also added more technical details to the original post.

Spoiler: Testing Methodology

Each module is fully balance charged to 4.2V per cell. The module is then discharged to 3.0V per cell at a constant power of 380W. Each module is tested 3 times. Following testing, modules are balance charged to 3.7V per cell for storage.
Note that these tests are slightly conservative. The discharger I got has a design flaw where it measures pack voltage after the shunt resistor. As a result, it cuts off about 0.5V early.