Ping 36v 20 ah, 5000 mile review.

Thanks for the explanation! I just noticed that right now he only has one 36v 20ah for sale and it's a V2. Has anyone here bought from his website? Assuming that the batteries on his site (http://pingbattery.com) are V2 you would save money and the transactions look like they're done through ProStores which is owned by eBay. I wonder if he offers lower prices there because he doesn't have to pay eBay fees?
 
Ping has always offered a good price for batteries he can sell, and then manufacture. On ebay the battery is already bought so he charges a bit more, or the auctions may go to crazy prices. For the lower price, there is a two week wait for the battery to be assembled. He may be selling shipping included on ebay, too, I'm not sure, but I think the shipping is added on pingbattery.com You can trust Ping, he won't sell you a cheap pack of round cells with flaky connections. It's a good solid battery.
 
Check the shipping costs. The eBay ones have free shipping, but his site has hefty charges.

I think My Ping v1 36v20a is great.
 
As of right now, Ping has a 36v 20ah battery on eBay for $614 including shipping and in his store he sells it for $470 with $97 shipping for a total of $567. I guess my choice is pretty clear! :)
 
So it's 57 cents per cycle, or 67 with electricity cost. A cycle should take you more than 20 miles at full throttle on a 600 watt bike. Or take the car at a similar cost per mile so a 20 mile trip is 12 bucks. Sticker shock of lifepo4 is easier to take when you realise that the car is 20 times more expensive per mile. It is a lot more than some other ebay vendors, but the ping cells are better cells and the pack construction, though still duct tape, is much much more reliable than welded tabs. Prices have gone up though, a year ago my v1 36v 20 ah was $350 plus $100 shipping.
 
Jukst passed the 2300 mile mark. Weather warmed up, and speed picked up by about 2 mph. Clearly the ping Version I is affected by cold a little.
 
PetersReviews said:
Well I took the plunge and ordered a 36v 20ah Ping battery! I can't wait to get it!
Let me know how your Ping pack works with the Gohub please!

I have a GoHub also, and I want to upgrade to a Ping pack soon.

thanks
 
stiffi said:
Let me know how your Ping pack works with the Gohub please!
I have a GoHub also, and I want to upgrade to a Ping pack soon.
thanks

I'll definitely post a review as soon as I get it. I ordered from his http://pingbattery.com site so it takes a bit longer because he builds each one and tests it before shipping.

Have a great weekend,
Peter
 
Do you know what the average amp draw is on the go hub? If it's an under 800 watt motor, a 20 ah ping will work fine with it. It's just the clyte 5300 series and the biggest cyclone motors that have had such big amps that they would wear out a ping prematurely. All the other motors I know of will work great with a ping in the 20 ah size.
 
I got my 36V 20A battery from New Journey (same as Ping style) almost a year ago. I estimate I put 3000 miles on it so far. My daily ride includes a 1 mile stretch of 10 to 15% grade. I'm running a BD36 hub in 26 inch wheel right now. On the hill I can easily peak at 34A, but try to run it under 30A by slowing down. I typically maintain 13 to 15MPH on the hill, and 20 to 26MPH on the flats. My ride is 13 miles roundtrip, and I charge it up once a day using an SLA charger, peaking at 42V. Typical drain is 8 to 9Ah per day. I could use the lithium charger which peaks at ~46V, but I am working under the theory that there is less stress on the batteries when not charging to max. This is also based on the fact that electric hybrid cars try to maintain a charge between 30 and 80% to increase longevity. Since I don't need the full 20Ah, this works out well. I do use the 46V charger about once a month to give it a good balancing charge.

Since I started, the battery feels as strong today as the day I first bought it. I haven't noticed any signs of heating of the battery at all. I have to also mention I increased the amp draw on the battery by adding solder to the shunt, and I added a heatsink to the FETS. This seems to be holding up great so far. Although the BD36 I'm running still works fine, I'm upgrading to a nine continents hub and controller for more torque on the hills.
 
Fantastic, shows again that a good lifepo4 will last at least a year if used sensibly, as mine is close to doing. I went 1000 miles without a charge above 44v. Then I tweaked a charger to 46.5. I wonder who has the most miles on one? I fgure I'll be into free riding in when I get to the one year anniversary, based on what driving would have cost, after that, who knows how many miles at a dime for 20 miles. Your timing for a new motor is good. I had my bd36 open with 2000 miles on it, and the brushes are about half gone, so with 3000, you may be getting thin there.
 
dogman said:
Do you know what the average amp draw is on the go hub? If it's an under 800 watt motor, a 20 ah ping will work fine with it. It's just the clyte 5300 series and the biggest cyclone motors that have had such big amps that they would wear out a ping prematurely. All the other motors I know of will work great with a ping in the 20 ah size.

I don't know the draw. From what I understand the Gohub is really just a Clyte 408 motor with custom electronics.
 
you may be able to tweak the voltage up to 3.65V/cell with your SLA charger, 43.8V and then you would have more capacity, using the power out of the battery at the top of its potential may be better for it long term. also it is more power to go longer without getting down closer to the low voltage cutout.

i think it is better to keep it as far above the LVC as possible, and then there is less chance of an accident pushing one of the cells down below 2.1V when they don't balance properly. imho, bol, dm
 
Actually, I am going on my third year with the hub. I estimate I have close to 9000 miles on it. I did replace the brushes about 10 months ago with aprox 6000 miles on it . I think it will last a lot longer, but I feel the need for more torque, and the nine continents has around 50% more torque at 15MPH at a lower amp draw. I would expect the bearings to go eventually.

dogman said:
I had my bd36 open with 2000 miles on it, and the brushes are about half gone, so with 3000, you may be getting thin there.
 
I guess my desert heat and a 15 mile uphill ride home is hard on brushes.

I thought the go hub was something ebikes-ca sells with a different name but couldn't remember what it was. In that case, a Ping 20 ah battery will fit it fine, or even a 16 ah if you don't mind cutting it finer. The average draw of that motor is most likely under 20 amps and over 15 at full throttle on flat ground. I think even the high rate cells of other brands are still going to last longest if the discharge rate is aroud 1c. It's going to be fun in a few years having a longest mileage club for Ping version 1 packs. I'll be perfectly happy if I get 10,000 miles out of mine, but I bet somebody will get 30,000 , by running a 10 amp bike on a 20 ah ping, using a less than 50% discharge routine.

As for pack voltage, I find the working voltage of mine is 44v , 36v 20 ah battery. If I charge to 45.5v with one charger and then put it on the other, at 46.5 the charger runs for less than a minuite. A few seconds of no load spin on the wheel, and the pack will measure 44v again. So the tweak on the charger is only used for balancing the battery. If you have 44v when the charger finishes, I think it's full. If it won't stay at 44 for quite awhile in use you have a runt cell. I think if you leave the pack on float at a lower voltage, it will eventually balance anyway. I have not personally witnessed balancing by the bms on my pack since the first week of use. I think with 100% good cells, you have to try pretty hard to get unbalanced with lifepo4. One runt pop tart though, and you have problems no bms can cure. Just my opinions, not backed by scientific evidence.

I recently switched to an Aotema brushless, and find it more torquey at low speed than the bl36 is. I used to downshift more with the bl to get going, but now I stay in high gear, 58-14 unless it's uphill. On the other end of the scale, the brushless hub will slow down just a tad more on the steepest hills near the top, so a crank or two more in a lower gear there now.
 
Since I use less than 50%, I don't see any danger in hitting cutoff. Since lifepo4 has only been used extensively for only a couple years, there's no data to support that overcharging extends life. In fact, for other lithium ion batteries overcharging is something to avoid. The lifepo4 is supposed to have a shelf life of over 10 years, but since it is so new, no one knows for sure how long it will last. I know that with lithium ions, they will go bad after 5 years, regardless of use, and heating degrades them faster. I believe overcharging also contributes to overcharging.

Like dogman noticed, these cells do not seem to get unbalanced easily unless they were somehow defective to begin with. if someone were to drain to 90% or more on a regular basis, then this becomes a much greater concern. I also took the conservative approach, buying a larger pack then needed. The great thing is, this pack weighs 15 lbs. It has an effective range of three to four times a new lead pack of 24 lbs.
The 12ah lead pack I had only lasted 9 months before it got to around 3ah actual capacity, and I had to baby it to get that much out of it. If I can get three years out of this lifepo4 pack, I'm ahead in the cost, plus the performance is so much better than lead.
 
My pack, discharging heats to about 95 F if it is about 80 F outsisde when used to climb the hill home. Since It's often warmer than 95 F around here, I decided it was worrying over something I had no controll over, unless I started ice packing the thing. While charging, again, the enviroment is often warmer than the heat I'm making by charging it. I did put some heatsink around the battery and have ventilation to help it shed heat, but if the batt is 95 and the world is 105, oh well. Since the charger does not run a signifigant time to get from 45.5v to 47, I doubt it cooks anything. We'll see, So far, I can't detect any degradation of the packs range in warm temperatures. I did lose about 20% of my range when it was coldest, riding below 45 F, but it is all back now. If I have gotten 1/3 of my most conservative estimate of the packs lifespan with no range loss, I figure that 1, I have a decent set of cells, and 2 I'm not doing anything seriously wrong with them.
 
I have one big 10% average one mile long hill to climb, and when I first got this battery, on that hill, the FET's on the BMS would get quite hot, but the battery felt basically room temp. i didn't have a temperature gauge to measure. What I did is lay a couple pieces of 12 guage solid copper wire across the tops of the FETS and wrap them around some 3/8 inch copper tubing and soldered it all up to get a nice thick heat sink. I also encased the battery in lexan acrylic sheets I got from Home Depot, separate from the BMS, so the BMS sits on top of the lexan panel, and is open to the air. I also ran a sheet of aluminum foil from the copper pipe down the length of the battery for further heat dissipation. I don't know how good this heatsink really is for instantaneous heatsinking, but it does a good job of cooling the FETS down, once the power is off. I did monitor it once by putting a thermocouple right on top of the FET. When I went up the steepest hill at maximum current of 35A, the temp rose as high as 57 deg C. That is acceptable, since most consumer grade electronics are designed to run up to 70 deg C, so I'm satisfied it is keeping within a safe range.

When I said there is no heating I'm talking about the battery itself, not the BMS. I think some people feel a hot BMS, and consider that to be the battery heating up. I do notice a small warmth from the battery after charging, but is so close to room temp, I don't believe it is an issue. If you are only seeing a 10 deg rise, I don't believe that is a concern at all.

As far as cooking, when you charge higher, I found the thing that cooks the most is the resistors on the BMS. They are there to keep each cell at or below 3.8V. I think for longevity, 3.6V is better, but at the expense of maybe 5% loss of capacity. The difference may not be that much of an issue. I don't think there is enough published data out there to support it. I'm just going on a gut feeling based on my knowledge of electronics, and the fact that higher voltages and/or temp, typically reduce life. The way most electronics companies test long term reliability is they run parts or systems at higher than normal temps and higher than normal voltages until they break, and then extrapolate the expected lifespan when run at normal temps and voltages.

It would be nice to be able to run different scenarios to see what strategy gets the maximum life, but I'm not interested in pushing limits to prove or disprove a point. I just want to get the most for my $. I think if you just use the charger as is, you should easily get the 1000 cycles out of it, and still have 85% capacity. According to most websites, even after 3000 cycles, these lifpo4's should still have 70% of original capacity. For me, that is over 10 years. I think shelf life may kill me before I ever use up this battery. I think now the weak link is the charger. I popped a capacitor on my charger twice already. :shock: The capacitor was rated 50V, so I'm looking for a higher volt, maybe 63V. I can't go too high because of a lack of space (bigger capacitor). :roll:
 
stevero2001 said:
Although the BD36 I'm running still works fine, I'm upgrading to a nine continents hub and controller for more torque on the hills.

If your getting it from ebikes.ca get the 2806 in a 26" rim instead of the 2807, its actually better or as good on hills and has a better top end. at ampedbikes its the 9x7 motor. the 2807/7x9 is really slow I only get 20-23 mph @ 48v, but the 2806/9x7 is great...
Toshi checked into it and it seems to be true.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3999&start=255#p136807
 
stevero, i think the 3.6V is fine. i never meant to diss you earlier, and i think your argument makes sense, nobody can know if that last little bit up to 3.65-3.7V is gonna hurt. we just found out that the headway BMS has an upper limit of about 3.875-3.925V. 47V from the charger needed to get there. so i think you are well within the range, and maybe there is no more than 5-8% left from 42V.

ecrazyman sells cheap 500W power supplies too. i wonder if it could be tweaked to a voltage in this range. if it is 48V nominal, and could be tweaked down to 44-47V range and still pump 10A then that may be more durable than the little plastic case chargers. i think they are $36 plus airfreight. but he has other stuff too, like controllers, throttles and ebrakes, so maybe combined shipping would help. you can contact him directly too without going through ebay.
 
When I was talking about the battery heating, I meant the battery itself. I also noticed the bms gets hot, my solution was to make sure it had lots of air flow around it while I ride. So it is taped to the top, with some spacers between it and the battery and my battery box has a hole in the front that acts like a scoop to force air past the bms when riding. In winter riding, I often put the bike on a bike rack on the bus to shorten the cold morning ride. When I would start to ride, I would sometimes get some lvc shutdowns in the first block. With some insulation around the battery, it would soon warm enough to operate normally, and as I rode, top speed would slowly increase as the battery warmed up a bit.
 
No worries about dissing. I think there is a lot of speculation on what is the absolute best conditions to run these batteries, so I was just putting out my own point of view. I think as long as the battery is not heating significantly, the charger is doing it's job. I read about some duct tape owners mentioning heat, and it made me wonder if maybe they have defective batteries, because I never noticed much heating in mine.

About the nine continents, I did order the 2806 20 inch with 26 inch rim and spokes. I plan to swap the rim myself. It saves a few bucks this way, and I get an extra 20 in rim which I might be able to use or sell later. I just got my tracking number today, so it should be here soon. I can't wait. 8)
 
I think most of those guys were noticing hot bms boards, but with the round cells, anything could be going on in there. My ping, when brand new and balancing a lot, would get real hot at the fets, and started to melt the shrink wrap, so I just gave it a few mm of air space instead of just taped to the pack like it came.
 
I finally got my Ping Battery today! It was well packed and looks great. The only thing is that the charger wires weren't connected so I need to figure out how to hook it up.
The battery has 3 wires: Red - positive, Black - negative discharge and Blue - negative charging. I'm assuming that I use the Red and Black to hook to my GoHub but I have no idea how to do it for the charger (image below). I can't read the designation for negative and positive but I'm assuming red goes on one side and blue goes to the other. Do any of you have pictures of how you hooked up the wires?

Thanks!
Peter

Ping.JPG
 
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