Plastic gears for cyclone motor

district9prawn

district9prawn

1 kW
Joined
Jul 20, 2013
Messages
340
Location
Sydney
I just received my 30% glass filled nylon replacement gears for the cyclone and am about to open up my motor and install them.

Has anyone else had any luck making quiet, durable plastic gears for the cyclone? I've searched and found plenty of mention about the idea but this thread here http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=56957 seems to be the only one where someone has given it a go.

I've done about 2500km on mine (mostly commuting) and it would be great to rid myself of that harsh whine that sounds like an angry swarm of bees.

UbQIyRql.jpg


EDIT: Video running both types of new gears https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1HlPYT5Sxg&feature=youtu.be
 
Ok finished installing without having to stay up all night.

I was a little worried that there seemed to be a slight tight spot at one point in the rotation. The gears still turned smoothly and quietly by hand, and I was able to spin through the tight spot easily by turning the output shaft with my greasy, gloved fingers.

Interesting to note that the original cyclone gears are slightly smaller. At first I thought this was wear but I compared them to a brand new set of metal gears and I could see the same difference between the metal and plastic gears. It looks as though the teeth are slightly shorter than the standard tooth profile on my gears.

fZjxiph.jpg


I scooped and wiped out as much grease I could without resorting to degreaser to hopefully remove as many metal particles as possible. I lubed the gears with the same moly grease before bolting everything back up.

While I was at it I also installed an lm335 in the stator coils and an oil seal between the motor and shaft if I go down this route in the future.

On the first spin up, it was MUCH quieter and there was less vibration if I held my hand against the motor casing. No load current was also lower, probably because it was freshly lubed. The harsh whine of the motor had also taken on a hum a bit more like a geared hub. (I previously had a MAC).

The test ride went even better. Normally the motor becomes noticeably louder as the load increases. Not so much with these gears. Under load, the gears sound a bit like a cross between the cyclone and a geared hub. It was quiet enough that while riding on the road, pedestrians on the footpath didn't look around trying to find the source of the noise. Nice! :D
 
This is a subject that interests me wildly(I am obsessed). I've wondered to great extent what nylon 6/6 sounds like compared to nylon 6/6 gf30 sounds like. However, I am skeptical it is going to make a huge difference, I have no idea how gears are made, but I'd love to find out.

There are at least a few things that I might note here, though. First is that new gears will be louder than worn gears. At present time, there are always going to be at least a little minor imperfection between mating surfaces which will translate into more friction, heat and noise from the gears.

Next, lubrication. I kind of want to perform some tests, but I am sure the best you can use in many respects in your motor will be some kind of oil. I don't know if you are running them dry, but various greases could be a good call as somewhere to start for lubricating your gears.

I might suggest trying to find a motor that uses helical gears. I am no expert in any of these subjects by any stretch, but many say that helical gears are substantially less noisy. I am sure this is a bit of a tall order, but if it's out there, and you care about enough about noise output, you now at least have something to look for.

And finally, the controller you use and how you apply power can seemingly have a fairly heavy impact on noise output. There are trapezoidal controllers, and there are sinewave controllers, and maybe a little inbetween. Sinewave controllers will quiet down your motor. Pair that with a lower maximum power output (cycle analyst is -excellent- for this) and your motor will go from a nest of angry bees to sleeping peacefully nest of bees (probably).

Collectively, these ideas will make a pretty large difference, I think. If nothing else, it's food for thought.
 
Salad, you are right, it ALL matters :(

I'm not sure if there would be a noise difference between glass filled and unfilled nylon. The controller does make a small difference. I have been running a FOC controller for about 1000km with the motor now. There is a slight drop in volume and a larger change in the tone of the gear noise. Smoother and less harsh.

Magnets I had the gears custom made in China.

I also have some even stronger gears on the way. Hopefully they will be here soon. :twisted:
 
The Headline motor is used by Cyclone, EGO, and AFT. If there is a bulk discount, you could easily be selling a composite gear set for these, for an easy profit.

If you could have a helical gear-set made, that would be even better, but...I realize that would also involve making up a steel sun and ring gear with helical teeth.
 
spinningmagnets said:
If you could have a helical gear-set made, that would be even better, but...I realize that would also involve making up a steel sun and ring gear with helical teeth.
Click to expand...
Not possible, I'm afraid. The helical gears would be larger. You'd need to start from scratch. Also the 9t sun gear might be a problem......
 
district9prawn said:
Salad, you are right, it ALL matters :(

I'm not sure if there would be a noise difference between glass filled and unfilled nylon. The controller does make a small difference. I have been running a FOC controller for about 1000km with the motor now. There is a slight drop in volume and a larger change in the tone of the gear noise. Smoother and less harsh.

Magnets I had the gears custom made in China.

I also have some even stronger gears on the way. Hopefully they will be here soon. :twisted:
Click to expand...

This is super intriguing. What material are you using that is stronger than nylon 6/6 gf30?

Did the same company make both sets of gears? How much were the gears? What company made them?

Which controller are you using?
 
What motor power are you running ? have you tested it under full power and full load like up a steep hill ?
 
Small update. I did another 5km on the gears this morning. This included a flat stretch at a moderate cadence at 1000w. I need to fix my chain/tensioner. I got a new mount from a company here in Aus (not aft) and did not resize and tension my chain properly. My heart sank this morning when I heard a grinding noise and the motor stopped pulling. Looked down and the chain had come off. :oops: Ended up pedalling the rest of the way with the motor decoupled. The gears sound good so far though.

The other gear material I was talking about was glass filled PEEK. I got a very small piece of the unfilled version from a supplier here. Held it under the small flame of my stove for about 20 30 seconds and it barely gave off a whiff of smoke :shock:
 
Are there some reduction gearbox with different reduction ratio for newest high voltage cyclone?

Fabio
 
I've done about 60km on the gears now and they still sound quiet and smooth. Possibly quieter :) Stealthily overtook lots of pedestrians and cyclists on a shared path beside a busy road on the way to work.

My temp sensor says the motor has been up to about 65c. Seems about right as at this temperature I could sort of leave my hand on the casing. I think I need to put the heatsink back on.
 
Subscribed, got any links?
Where to buy?
Will be running 500Watts soon :)

Thanks,
David Raaijmakers
 
Some more arrived today :D

3oHHvhq.jpg


I opened up the gearbox and the nylon gears were turning very smoothly :)

I only installed two of the new gears as I had trouble lifting the remaining 608 bearing out of the planet carrier. So still running one of the original nylon gears. The gearbox was pretty stiff and I was worried the motor would turn with an absurdly high no load current. It turned out to only be about 50w higher than with the nylon gears. After about 10 minutes of break in on the bench the no load current was pretty close and I could turn the gears by hand ok with no tight spots. The break in runs generated a considerable amount of heat in the gearbox and I had to scrape away some grease which seemed to have fine bits of plastic inside.

Hopefully I can get these broken in and seal everything up and run oil. Perhaps ATF like some have done with the geared hubs? The gears could use the extra cooling since the sun gear gets hot from the motor. On top of that they also have to deal with frictional heat building up due to their low thermal conductivity.
 
Hopefully I can get these broken in and seal everything up and run oil. Perhaps ATF like some have done with the geared hubs? The gears could use the extra cooling since the sun gear gets hot from the motor. On top of that they also have to deal with frictional heat building up due to their low thermal conductivity.
Click to expand...

Is that Nylon or PEEK gear plastic suitable to be used with ATF or other gear oils ? Some oil i know makes plastic brittle, are they compatible ?

The gears will deifnetely be cooler and more efficient when run in oil then grease if you can keep it in their and not leak out.
 
bowlofsalad said:
Are you able to hear a difference between peek and nylon?
Click to expand...

There is a difference but I am pretty sure it is due to small differences in the teeth and the fit of the bearing. So not a fair comparison. Need to ride more. You do seem to have an unusual interest in how different plastics sound :p

Quick video of the gearbox in the first post!
 
district9prawn said:
bowlofsalad said:
Are you able to hear a difference between peek and nylon?
Click to expand...

There is a difference but I am pretty sure it is due to small differences in the teeth and the fit of the bearing. So not a fair comparison. Need to ride more. You do seem to have an unusual interest in how different plastics sound :p

Quick video of the gearbox in the first post!
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing the video. What would make that video really great is if you did a before and after comparison, steel versus nylon versus peek. Making sure the plastic gears are worn in to similar and reasonable levels.
 
Where can I get a set of these nylon gear's? I am just about to buy a 1700W cyclone fitted bike and the previous owner says he has gone through 3 set's of gears in the last 14 months! I was thinking titanium but would these be quieter and more durable? I don't want to have to be changing the gears out every few months..
 
District prawn how are those plastic gears working now ? Did they last and at what power ?
 
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