power related

[promethious]

hey all, glad to be here in the forums as a new Ebike person... im not 100% sure this is the proper spot for this post/thread, so if it isnt, please let me know (politely) ... here is the main "gist" of this posting...
i have noticed ALOT of power related posts, from a query perspective, an answer or an overall explanation.. most people, if not all.. want to get the most out of their bikes and scooters in terms of power, range and longevity per charge.. but some of us just dont know the lingo (which im sure comes with exposure and time)
so heres my "specific" related query... i just got my first Escooter.. its a branded bike by blueavenue in toronto ontario.. 72V 500W scooter.. the model is called the mayhem.. kinda like to old honda ruckus in its styling.. i went with the mayhem because it was 72V and because it was a little "cooler" looking unit.. (i know, probably a bad reason to pick one)...i went with the 72V because here in canada we have some pretty ... unique laws for whats considered P.A.B.'s ...i do really like the bike so far (only had it two days) but i would like to improve upon its performance a little where i can.. my first idea is to switch from SLA to lithium, seems to be the most common and simple upgrade most people make.. but im thinking id also like to switch out the controller for a little better/higher controller.. is this a good idea? if so, what should i look for..?
currently it has the main battery, which is ofcourse 72V.. and my goal is to get a little more tork out of it but still keep the decently high rate of speed... just a little more "oomph" power for climbing inclines.. and secondary, like most people i suspect, id love to see more range out of it.. as it is, it claims 75k under optimal conditions (though between current knowledge and some reading im wondering how true these claims are..we will see soon enough as im gonna make a nice day trip with it to test the range) ...and i hear you can get as much as 40-50 percent gains with lithium based batteries of equal size.. at about half the weight.. if this is true id like to stuff in as much lithium power as the unit has room for and make it a powerhouse beast.. is this even feasable? has anyone else done something similar with their scooter?
so, im looking for all you pro's, semi-pro's and knowledgeable people out there to steer me in the right direction.. oh yea, lastly, this applies to some situations but im not to sure about this specific application... having an over rated controller, ie theres a 72V 500w controller in there now.. swapping it out for say a 84V/96V 1000W controller...still leaves the motor at 500W... would this provide a nice increased safety buffer for larger ah batteries? or will it affect the performance at all in any way?
thanks and look forward to hearing all your comments and opinions...

 

[promethious]

wow lol... 21 views and not ONE reply so far... come on people.. im asking for some feedback here... is there no one who knows anything about this kinda thing on here?

 

[Miles]

Wow! LOL! What a rambling post.. Try editing your stream of consciousness into a coherent and concise question.

 

[major]

Paragraphs, upper case to begin sentences and single periods to end sentences would help me read. Thank you.

 

[DAND214]

To Start, Welcome to ES.

Yes it was a little hard to read in all one sentance, but I did.
Doesn't need to be perfect but a little more specific per item.

We need your location in your profile, so we don't need to reread the post.

72v how many AH are the batteries?
How fast does it go?
Weight, you, the scooter and togeather.

Changing the controller does change the wattage of the motor if you increase the wattage.

If you change the controller to a higher voltage you might need to increase the votage of the batteries, since the LVC might be higher.

You can get more TORK, torque by modding the shunt in the controller, which is posted all over the forum. Just search "shunt mod".

I agree with you that you will not get 75k out of the scooter unless it has some massive battery, Not likely.

You had it two days and already want more. Can you return it?

I know I am jumping around, but can't rember all at once so doing the best I can.

Lithium batteries will help range and in most cases, Tork and speed. It will also cost condiderably more than lead. before you dump the lead try the shunt mod and see what it does. Lithiums voltage is higher that lead so speed will increase a little.

Last for me is your range test. Don't go one diection till it stops, ride around the area so you can get home by pushing it because you can't really pedal a scooter very far.

Hope I answered a few things, sure others will chime in soon.

Dan

 

[John in CR]

No pics or video. Let's see what you're talking about.

 

[promethious]

ok people point taken.. just use to typing out the thoughts, never have been good at proper formatting

ill try to get some pictures and/or vid up soon, lost my cable for my camera so its hard to get pics off (and my cell phone doesnt have a working cam, really kind of old) *John in Cr*

DAND214 - im in the niagara region of ontario canada... the Ah on the batteries is 22AH and theyre currently sla type... its rated for 32k an hour, but im thinking it might creep closer to 40kph, either way 32 is fine for me speed wise... as far as the distance, they list it as 75k (but again, im doubtful, though there are some adverts with other models powered by lithium that have fantastic claims as well around the 120k range, just...doesnt seem truthful else there would be more chatter about them i would think)

as far as my riding test(s) im trying to take average routes that might encompass what i would typically use it for, small inclines, different bike paths available... so i wont just drive it till it dies...

ive made battery packs for other projects in the past, so i have a small amount of battery related knowledge and im definitely going to do a liFeP04 upgrade once i get my cells in... with that everything i know and hear is that it will increase speed slightly, but also overall power for torque and range... which is where im ultimately heading... taking it back? i probably could but it is about the best one available in canada i can get with the specs i need, some models offered are 60V and most are 48V so i think i got the right model for me anyhow...

my thoughts or questions about the controller, is basically this.. either at the basic level there might (must) be a better quality controller, perhaps with a higher amp limit (as most things sold of the shelf are usually middle of the road) that might provide some buffer for usage, even if it isnt max'ed out to its upper limit.. kinda like... only using 3/4 of its max amount is usually a better thing to increase the longevity of whatever the unit is... (though i could be off base with that)

im pretty sure that simply building a 72V pack with higher AH out of liFeP04 would be great and be more than needed but with a stronger or better controller, with an 84V pack wouldnt that be even better still? (just more thoughts im rambling)

either way, thanks for the responses and input, esp DAND214... i look forward to learning more and hearing about everyones experiences and lessons learned in the coming days... and if there is any other people from ontario, or specifically niagara region, lets hit a timmies and check out each others bikes


btw ; until i can get a proper pic of my Escooter up, this will have to do.. this is the URL for the place i got it and the model it is - http://www.blueavenue.ca/MayhemElectricBike.html - though i just noticed, some of the info on the webpage is a little different from the stores printed stuff, but basically this is the model and specs

 

[major]

Thanks for the paragraphs. Just curious, what’s wrong with punctuation and capitalization?

 

[promethious]

Major - wow really? this is all you reply with? why not just save us both the trouble if your going to do nothing but reply with negativity? you do not like the way i type, you have 2 choices.. you can come here and i can dictate what i would like to say, or you could simply not reply... (there are other choices but telling you to go f*$k yourself isnt very polite, and i do try to keep things polite... ) after no reply on your first critique of my original post, you might have gotten the gist

 

[major]

Major - wow really? this is all you reply with? why not just save us both the trouble if your going to do nothing but reply with negativity? you do not like the way i type, you have 2 choices.. you can come here and i can dictate what i would like to say, or you could simply not reply... (there are other choices but telling you to go f*$k yourself isnt very polite, and i do try to keep things polite... ) after no reply on your first critique of my original post, you might have gotten the gist

Hey, I was seriously curious as to why you elect to deviate from conventional punctuation, that's all. You obviously have the capability to use an upper case letter when you want to, but purposely decide not to at the beginning of a sentence. What is the reason? You could have said it was an attempt to be unique, or stylish, or something else. But instead you respond rudely. In your second post you appeared to ask why those who had viewed your first post had not responded. Miles and I gave you our reasons. Now I have another reason not to help and that is your attitude. Good luck with your project.

 

[ten.ring]

major
some day I hope to be as good at every thing as you must be. you know some one that has no weaknesses in any life skill.

oh! wait ! I know one of your weaknesses. you are unable to read well unless it was written by a university english professor.

it's true some of us are just lazy so we do not use caps, but me i'm just too stupid!

one of my many short comings is understanding arrogance. no matter what the demographics of a forum there are always people like you who start off with rudeness. then when rudeness comes back at you. it's the other guy who started it!!!!! I guess your too mature to grow up.

 

[ten.ring]

promethious

with a higher amp controller you will get more top speed and quicker take off. but with the risk of motor over heat! if you use the extra amps for too long. holding that higher top speed for vary long or take off with full throttle over and over with no time for the motor to cool off in between. stop and go's.

you're likely to use more battery to go the same route. because you'll take off faster and go at a higher speed, if you got it you'll use it!

if you use self control the higher amp controller should last longer.

with LiFePo4 you can get your weight down and increase your range. plus they will take 2000 charges instead of only 300 to 500max.

 

[gogo]

wow lol... 21 views and not ONE reply so far... come on people.. im asking for some feedback here... is there no one who knows anything about this kinda thing on here?

The OP seemed to genuinely want to know why he was being ignored. The explanation Major gave him was also the reason I looked but didn't respond.

you are unable to read well unless it was written by a university english professor.

Posting with poor punctuation and paragraph construction is a burden on everybody who tries to read the post. Every single person has to parse out the information to comprehend it, when the OP could have done it once. Punctuation and paragraph construction aren't arbitrary conventions. Failing to make that effort seemed rude to me.

 

[promethious]

and as i did mention in a prior post, i apologize for my "lack of punctuation" ...this isnt a strong suit of mine.. however, perhaps i was mistaken in thinking this forum is about EV based topics, and not an english lesson.... if this is the case, then again, feel free not to comment or respond, im sure ill figure it out eventually

 

[promethious]

ten.ring.. thanks for the reply.. yea im learning that amperage is a wear and tear factor on these motors.. for me, im not so much looking for an increase in speed as much as i am for a little more torque and distance.. right now its doing pretty good for local trips speed wise, but im noticing a little sluggishness hitting up a couple of the unavoidable inclines in my area... so im hoping i can figure that out more than anything else.. secondary would be the distance thing.. i think its the bane of all EV based things.. how to get the best distance out of what juice you have to work with... in my specific situation it came standard with SLA's, and i can already see the basic opinion of lead... heavy...weak... so i plan to make a new pack with liFeP04's... ive made smaller packs in the past for other projects, so that isnt the issue.. its more...is it wise or feasable to overplan/overbuy a controller.. if im going to run 72V30AH lithium batteries could i/should i get an 84V controller? would that give me some bufferage on my amps for safety or efficiency perhaps? (not much of an electrical guy, kinda rates up there with my grammer)
anyhow, again thanks for the reply, and any other opinions/advice is appreciated

actually ten.ring, perhaps i need to learn to read better as well as i think you actually answered my question about the controller overall by stating that a higher controller will up the amps and that would have the negative effect on the motor and risk burning it out.. hmmm do you think theres a way around that perhaps? some... way to achieve the goals im after without doing to much harm to the motor?

 

[ten.ring]

gogo and other like minded people

you don't get it! I CAN NOT DO PROPER PUNCTUATION ! WE ALL HAVE THINGS IN THIS WORLD WE CAN NOT GET OUR HEAD AROUND. EVERY ONE OF US!

I aint no dummy. I read white paters and other tech documents every day. the capitalization and punctuation are invisible to me. I have taken special education classes to try and learn this stuff. but it don't set in, in a short while I loose all I gained.

you said this is a burden on "EVERY ONE" NOT TRUE! at all, I had NO trouble following his post AT ALL!!!. but I am not distracted by a lack of proper sentence structure or punctuation and the like.

 

[ten.ring]

promethious

if it were me when I was done with the sla's i'd build a LiFePo4 at 60 or 72v and use about the same amp in a new higher voltage controller. but you'll need to figure out what that scooter uses for a transformer to drop the voltage for the lights and such. some are built in to the controller some are separate units. but that's just me. I prefer higher volts and lower amps in a brushless motor for mods. most have run cooler when I do it that way. it gets very technical as to why.

there are some pretty good posts in the gnc thread on this topic but it's a huge one 126 pages. it will take some time for you to find them. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=42785&start=3200

 

[promethious]

Ten.Ring
thats where i am at a crossroads.. i know i will be building at least a 72V pack, and was bouncing the idea of even an 84V pack.. and ill have to figure out the whole amp thing as i dont want to damage the existing system.. so far it seems like a wonderful setup on the system, just..lacks that little oomph on inclines and range (as im guessing all scooters suffer from to a degree) did you by chance click the link i posted for the model? it gives some basic specs on the bike, about as much as the rest of the literature i received does.. and i dont care to really do too much experimentation with something i am still learning about, though im not against total experimentation i suppose...
i was kind of thinking the same thing.. higher volts as opposed to higher amps, would this be a sufficient remedy for my goals? the bike has to battery packs.. one for the motor, and one specifically for the lights and such so i know ill replace them with lithium setups, but cant get around the amps stuff yet.. got a lot more learning and reading to do.. i guess i figure as i read and learn, talking and asking opinions and advice helps it sink in better overall..
have you done many mods to your bikes before? what was the best or most efficient mod you made that made a noticeable difference overall?

 

[meelis11]

Hi,
more Volts allows your motor to run faster - so you get more speed.
If you are happy with speed, but want better accelleration then you need to provide more amps to motor.
That is simple explanation.

power = amps * volts, so if you make one bigger, you actually get more power from your motor.

I would suggest that make shunt mod to your stock controller, but dont overdo it. Keep you SLAs for now, replace them later when they are losing capacity/range. Maybe then you understand better what battery pack you want/need - voltage, amphours etc

 

[promethious]

hey meelis11

thanks also for the reply... so youve basically said what others have said as well.. to the basic same degree... and i appreciate the info... i AM ok with both the speed and the acceleration, so i guess it isnt an increased amps i need.. as ive already stated, im only looking for an increase of torque (which i believe you answered with the motor shim thing, as others have mentioned) and distance, which i know is basically the AH rating of the batteries...
i guess the biggest things i am trying to figure out overall, and i apologize if my posts were to hard to follow or didnt make this part clear enough... with switching (eventually) over to lithium, i was curious about making an 84V pack if not, simply a 72V pack as thats what i have now... with of course an increased AH rating.. but its the amp rating im trying to figure out, which has been explained by yourself and a couple others.. thing is im not sure if the answer, actually answers fully my question.. i get that an increased amp will give me higher speed, and possibly wreak a little havoc on my motor... but, if i get a higher rated controller, would that give me a buffer in my range of use for the bike.. (ie; if a=100 percent and thats what i have now... and B=150 percent and thats what i could swap to.. and if im using 90 percent of "A's" capacity, which is hard on the unit, would switching to "B" make an easier use if im still using the same amount of power/energy or whatever.. having that 50 percent buffer that would be unused?) (not sure if that makes sense or if i am explaining properly or not) but if im using 90% of the existing unit, which over time will strain, would upgrading to a better unit while still maintaining the same use be easier on the bike overall?
the secondary battery for the lights/sound (etc...) is a 12V unit, i think i need to find out the amp rating on that still... but the other thing i wanted to do was increase efficiency on the lights and sound by replacing the lights with lower wattage/ampage L.E.D.'s... and then customize it with a couple extra's like use the lighter plug in for my GPS and such... so increasing the AH on that battery would be a good thing, but then still has the same concern i have about the main.. increasing the batt for extended usage.. do i/would i change out the controller for a higher rated or even a similar rating with better quality

(again, i know some find it hard to follow my posts, and i apologize for that, but this is the best i can do... not very good at explaining myself sometimes)

 

[ten.ring]

I had it in my head your scooter was 48v. oops it's 72. so if it were me and I went to a better controller I would go with a 84v and 25% to 50% more amp capacity in the controller. yes if you do not push a controller to it's limits it will run cooler therefore last longer. the higher amp controller and higher voltage will give better hill performance. but be careful, more power = more heat in the motor. hub motors do not cool as well as motors like the gng motor. hub motors generate their heat in the center armature where there is not a good path for the heat to get out.
the higher amp batteries will give longer range IF speed and acceleration are the same for any given route. the high 'c' rating of the new batteries will provide less volt drop under high load, therefore better hill climbing power.
I have just gotten started with e-bikes, so my bike back ground is limited, I am a research and development designer. so its my job to come up to speed on a new subject very quickly. creating new better machines with new technologies is my work. so far all my e-bike work is on prototype experiments. my goal is an ultra efficiency long lasting commuter. in California you can run an e-bike with no pedals and no drivers lic. req. I want front and rear suspension (very soft). I will need to build a complete bike from ground up.

 

[DAND214]

You will learn a lot and loose a lot here. don't take in everything without thinking, is that right. We all have differant ways of doing these things. Some are enginners some are just backyard mechanics. We all get what we want, the way we want or know how to.

I would use the lead till it starts to loose it's power/range. Do a LiFePo pack, the same voltage you have now. In doing so, you will pick up speed, torque which is acceleration. With no changes to your controller. If you get bored you can mod the shunt like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kryBNYIXdl4 This will give you more power/torque. It will also cut range and if run at full throttle too long, it could overheat the motor and maybe controller.

Don't rush the battery upgrade, learn what you have and see what you want later. If you push the change, you won't know what you had and how much you improved it.

Dan

 

[promethious]

Ten.Ring

yea i had to get a 72V just to satisfy my... needs i suppose lol.. so thats kind of what i was thinking, 72V battery, with an 84V controller... using the same usage i would have on the 72V... so im only using say, (hypothetically) 75/80 percent of the max load as oppossed to 85/90 percent on the 72V controller (or something along those lines)
and that would hypothetically give me room should i choose or need to upgrade to an 84V battery set up (or so my thought process was going) ...and wow.. that sounds really fun the idea of building a bike from ground up.. and yea, i get the practical commuter idea.. kind of what i would like to ultimately see for this bike. so thats the direction im heading overall..

 

[promethious]

Dan

thanks for the suggestions my main reason for the lithium swap is the weight difference, the extra power is important, but secondary overall.. but yes, i think i will keep using the SLA in the interim as i have no real use for them, and the prospect of trying to sell them seems more hassle than its worth..
i do appreciate the heads up on the info that ill learn here...it wouldnt be hard for me to take what i hear or read as gospel as my EV knowledge is limited at best, and theory at worst... i have built batteries before for target specific projects, so i know the very basics, not so much in formula but in practical application which i am thankful for overall, but this whole EV thing is new to me... and although i do have a veracious hunger for it right now i dont wish to break beyond my knowledge what i already have im been pouring over information on here, and other sites as well as google to try and match up the information i think i need or want, and to see that it matches with what others have to say on the same.. just for a little balance overall.. im finding youtube is amazing for this stuff too.. there are so many people out there doing stuff on their own, in their garages and/or own personal labs... its giving me hope for the whole ideas overall... but thanks to you, and others (ten.ring etc) for your comments/advice... ill be sure to put it to good use overall

 

[Stomper]

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