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Purchasing the correct dd Hub quesions

PeteB

PeteB

10 W
Joined
Sep 21, 2013
Messages
72
Location
Tampa bay fl,
Hello,This is my first post after reading so much here I have a few questions that I have not found answers to.Pretty simple But I am a newbie looking to electrify my used Electra townie 21 That I did some trading for.I weight 260 lbs.the Townie is 34 lbs and I live in Florida pretty much flat other than some steep overpass ramps to Clearwater beach.
I plan is a kit then to build lipos starting at 42v to start with then to 72v..
I have a couple other projects keeping me busy when I have to funds to continue them building a 67 camaro drag car and I have a boat project about finished so I have to keep the funds low.

That said I think the ideal motor would be a HS 3548 but cant afford that right now..Maybe later down the road.The Simulator shows this as an awesome motor.

So I think cell mans kit is the best bang for the buck for the 9c kit with a 12 fet 40AIRFB4110 controller.
I understand the typical stator size/wind numbers 2805,2806,2807,I am torn in between the 2806/2807 for high speed per the calculator but obviously no seat of the pants experience.

What is a little frustrating is the em3ev sight lists these as 370RPM, 335RPM, 305RPM or 275RPM Can some one please tell me what these are in relation to the typical stator size/wind numbers 2805,2806,2807.

Another thing I question is the controller is the 12fet4110 in the cell man kit or the lyen adjustable over 40 amps via the usb cable?I cant find a max amp rating for Lyen at all..

I want to use a thumb throttle with the batt power lights on it..Will this be an issue when going from 42v to 74v? I ask because I see them offered at different volts.

Am I better off just getting a Magic pie 2 and a lyen 124110...

Thanks.You guys rock.This site is a lot of fun but can make your head spin after a few hrs with all the options and suggestions.
 
Hey Pete,

Those crystalyte motors are awesome but like you saw, they sure are pricey. 9C motors are a good "poor man's crystalyte". With the kind of load you are intending to put on the bike, I'd suggest you look at a slower wound motor and go for higher voltage. The 2806 is a fast motor and the 2807 is pretty average (though still a pretty quick motor IMO) but with your weight, I'd say a 2808 or even 2810 on at least 48V. If you try to run a 2806 with your weight, you'll find that you'll get a slow, bogged down acceleration and a really hot motor. The efficiencies are much, much better when you drop to a slightly slower motor. A 2810 on 48V is still over 20mph and close to 30 mph on 72V. I don't think you want to go too much more than 30 mph on a Townie anyways. Great bike, but it's not a motorcycle frame. Downhill frames are better if you want to really push the limits of speed.

Are you familiar with lipo batteries? They are a great option for huge amounts of power in a small, inexpensive option but they still come with some serious safety risks if you don't know exactly how to care for them. They are not batteries for the casual ebiker, they require diligence to be used safely.

You'll need a different throttle with LEDs for different voltages. Standards are 24, 36 or 48V throttle leds. I don't think I've ever seen one out there for 72V but I'm sure they exist. Alternatively, you could probably swap the resistor in a lower voltage throttle to get the correct levels for lighting the LEDs on 72V.
 
wheel turns no load (36V) loaded (36V)
16" 4 410 375rpm
18" 6 370 335rpm
20" 7 335 295rpm
22" 8 305 265rpm
24" 9 275 240rpm
26" 9.5 255 225rpm
28" 10 240 215rpm
Click to expand...

From:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=22244

So
275=2809
305=2808
335=2807
370=2806

Then use the calculator to work out what performance/range you want.

http://www.ebikes.ca/simulator/
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rear-Wheel-Electric-Bicycle-Conversion-Kit-24V-36V-48V-250W-500W-700W-800W-1000W-/290754592384
Select 48V 1000W model. About the same speed as HS3548 winding at less than half the price.
 
Which is a fast motor. But a good buy for those on the look for a bargain, and some cheap speed. Your weight is an issue, but the kits 30 amps controller will help with that.

Much depends on what you want out of it, long fast (for a bicycle) cruises at 48v, or lots of starts and stops in urban riding. If you have the urban riding, I'd say go for the slowest dd from cellman, and then go directly to a 72v controller. Scrimp by starting out with just 5 ah of 72v lipo. If your rides will have 2-3 miles between stops, then I'd say the same speed at 48v with the Yes kit is cheaper.

I ran fast motors in the past, and really liked them on open roads. But over time I got really tired of the sluggish response on the many starts and stops on my commute. A slow motor run at higher volts has the same top speed, but much nicer take off from the line.
 
Thanks guys,All of you have answered just what I need to know,
I have some Lipo experience.(18650 Ecig mods and rc).I understand the dangers and I wont even charge them in my house or garage,I have to sleep good at night,I have a 10v12 shed. with a bench that is a perfect place for a charging station.I am Not even worried about that.

i did not think weight would be this much of an issue ..That being said Can I go with a geared motor and still get a high speed motor like say a 6t without an issue?..I want my bike to be able to do 40mph or close to it.. But NOT ALL THE TIME..So I would like to run at 42v and be able to put a 74v pack on it sometimes...

I know it's a Townie and not a Down hill bike..I am on nice flat roads here in Fl.and a lot of nice roads in undeveloped communities to take advantage of.(No Cops or traffic). I am in my 40's with a lot of riding experience.So 42v to commute in the 20 to 30 mph range and 74v to have some fun.

SO.. My next Question is GEARED OR DD?
Should I start a new thread with this question? Thanks every one..
 
I'm 270lbs , running 24s on the yescomusa 48V 1000W motor using a 40A 72V 1500W controller. It has plenty of power for me and will do over 40mph. Got about 10,000 miles on it now after 2.5 years. Can cruise at 30-35 mph all day long. You can mod the stock controller to about 45A easily with a shunt mod if you want more power out of it. It's without a doubt the best bang for the buck of any kits out there. But, if you're looking for constant speeds of 40 mph, you'll need to look at a more powerful motor. One with at least a 2000W rating. That leaves out most motors, like 9C, HS35xx, etc. Clyte H4065, H4080, TCXX models, and others will do that. Forget geared motors. None of them will take the power that DD motors will and none of them will support any type of assisted braking. And at 260lbs you'll need that from high speeds for safe stopping without burning out brake pads. Info onyescomusa kits.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49638
 
Now that you explain your needs or desires better, go for the fast motor, in a direct drive. You can't overvolt the gearmotors quite as much as the dd's.

Get a 72v 40 amps controller, and run 20s lipo. Make good strong torque arms for the motor axle. Watch your motor temperatures, it's fairly easy to melt one if you ignore it. It won't feel that sluggish with 3000w to get you moving.
 
Sounds to me the usayscom is hard to beat especially for a first time build..

My only problem is that I can't Use Ebay They screwed me TWICE as a seller they are a BAD BAD BAD company that side with the scamming buyers.The other places that sell the 48/10000 kit are out of them.Iy sure would be nice if some one sold these motors,Controllers,throttles,separately.

I am wondering about different motors as listed 24v/36v/42v I wonder if they are all the same or different windings.
The controller looks like a 15fet infineon controller but what do I know.

wesnewell I would really appreciate a link to the mod if you have one.
 
You can order from the yescomusa.com website, but you will pay an extra $50 or more to do so. You can also buy the same kits from leafbike,com, but it will cost you more.
How to do a shunt mod. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=31643
All the motors look the same on the outside, but they aren't on the inside.
 
At the risk of sounding like I'm trying to peddle parts at you (peddle? get it?), in about another week or two weeks I'm going to have a pile of brand new parts for sale in Fort Myers, FL left over from an ebike video series I'm working on. The parts will include hub motors (9C rears, a Phoenix II crystalyte front motor, a few LiFePO4 and Li-ion batteries, a bunch of controllers, a bunch of other assorted parts and a few completed ebikes as well (including a tandem :eek: ). PM me if you'd like a more complete list, I don't want to get too off topic on your thread here. Just thought I'd give you a heads up since its pretty close to you geographically and could be some parts that you'll be buying anyways.
 
If you're in the USA or Canada I suggest buying from ebikes.ca or yescomusa for your first build.

It can get frustrating for people to buy stuff from China and then not getting the support needed to finish your FIRST build.

I had a yescomusa that worked well and the price is right. Within the continent .. ebikes.ca quality can be difficult to beat. Both ends of the scale here but definitely think about the support you get when you buy within the US.
 
I had both D.D and geared. I would get a D.D. if em3ev get the next to the slowest for 72v. It has a plug for a C.A. you wish you had. Don't forget a torque arm at time of install.
 
Price has no relation to quality, and for some unknown reason 2 manufacturers in particular mentioned earlier in this thread charge higher prices but have lower quality. At $225 for the full kit including shipping Wesnewell's recommendation is the only one I'd follow.

Since you're working on a '67 Camaro, it's pretty obvious that as soon as you have an ebike, you will want more from it, and they can deliver performance that will stagger you. With the flat straight roads of Florida forget the slow wind motors, because they are simply lower power and only advantageous if you want to ride very slow or have hills too steep that you can't just blast up at high speed. Going with a smaller wheel is always better, but those options are becoming increasingly difficult to find, and you already have the bike. With your weight and the cheap price of that Ebay kit, I'd say go for 2wd right off the batt. Get whatever they call their highest power highest speed 48V kit, one front and one rear. That's going to give you fun performance that will surprise you right off the bat, and then higher voltages and new controllers down the line might make you forget the Camaro.

Don't underestimate the forces on those axles. The torque our motors make at only a 5mm radius gets into thousands of pounds. Since you have the ability to easily fabricate torque arms, you can forget the garbage that is sold as torque arms. They work marginally at legal power, but as you juice things up they lead to the most common failure. Make yourself something at least 10mm thick that clamps onto the motor axle with a 5-6mm bolt, and also bolts to the bike frame at least a few inches away from the axle. Don't even consider a test ride without proper torque arms first, especially that front motor. Snapping the front dropouts like matchsticks with the motor separating from the bike is the last thing you want to have happen.

Don't worry, there's no need to be concerned about front rear synchronization of the motors. They'll run independently as a real 2wd using a single throttle. They also will not use any more juice than one motor except to the extent that you ride at a higher average speed, which does use more juice. With your larger than normal load 2 motors will likely run at greater overall efficiency than one motor.

John
 
Banner day for me..I purchased a Motor..i purchased a new rear 5304 on a 24 rim...It's v1 but only 200.bucks..Now the fun part...18 fets or 24? And a LOT of reading endless sphere on Lipo battery pack builds...I have to thank all of you that have helped me out with all my questions..I am having a blast and learning a lot from all of you...Thanks
 
First motor and you got a beast. It needs Lipo for full speed. Buy extra's and weed out the bad one's. With that much lipo maybe store in the barbeque and not in the wood shed with other toys. There's always free barbeques on the curb around here. 72v 60a 4500 watt wheelie bike.
 
Score dude! way to go. A 5304 is a great motor. Love mine on my cargo bike. I keep it down to 30 mph, but it makes my 160 pound cargo bike fly from 0-30.

Got mine from mlt 34, great guy to buy used stuff from. My used stuff is generally thrashed a lot worse.

Go with a pretty stout controller, but for only 2000w 12 fets is running mine fine.
 
999zip999 said:
First motor and you got a beast. It needs Lipo for full speed. Buy extra's and weed out the bad one's. With that much lipo maybe store in the barbeque and not in the wood shed with other toys. There's always free barbeques on the curb around here. 72v 60a 4500 watt wheelie bike.
Click to expand...


UNREAL!!!..I HAD ALREADY TALKED TO MY WIFE ABOUT THIS IDEA!!!!. GREAT MINDS THINK ALIKE! :idea:
 
dogman said:
Score dude! way to go. A 5304 is a great motor. Love mine on my cargo bike. I keep it down to 30 mph, but it makes my 160 pound cargo bike fly from 0-30.

Got mine from mlt 34, great guy to buy used stuff from. My used stuff is generally thrashed a lot worse.

Go with a pretty stout controller, but for only 2000w 12 fets is running mine fine.
Click to expand...

Thank's Dogman, I am hoping that I can find a controller to do 42-80v so I can do multiple battery packs for different situations..Long commutes at 20-25 mph on the Pinellas bike trail though Clearwater and St.Pete and higher for some fun around destitute roads once in a while..
Mlt 34 is a nice guy I have Pm'ed with him a little..

Now If only a Lipo battery factory opened up down the street that needed battery testing done and sold Wholesale.. Hey a guy can dream right?
 
wesnewell said:
You can order from the yescomusa.com website, but you will pay an extra $50 or more to do so. You can also buy the same kits from leafbike,com, but it will cost you more.
How to do a shunt mod. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=31643
All the motors look the same on the outside, but they aren't on the inside.
Click to expand...

I was very close to buying this kit and just may buy one in Feb.(tax time) for my wife's bike that she rarely rides.What I have found is that xcceries is yescom and they are out of them.A place called bikeberry.com has them in stock and they price match. Thanks. oh and thank's for the shunt mod link.
 
Look to Lyen for your controller, he'll give advice on the best one for your needs- tell him your motor, what you want to do and your proposed batteries. He was invaluable while I was building my bike.
Search the site- he's got a good reputation.
look at his site for an idea of what he's got- www.lyen.com/
email at the bottom of that page or LYEN@hotmail.com if it is of interest.
 
I don't want to bring bad news to the party, but the Crystalyte 53XX series motor is almost impossible to use effectively in a rear wheel format. The right side spoke bracing angle is nil; that's why I got a front 5305 as my first hub motor.

I would only use that motor in combination with a rim that has a lot of spoke hole offset, like the Surly Rabbit Hole. Otherwise you'll have to dish the wheel over to one side just to make it strong enough to ride on.
 
Chalo said:
I don't want to bring bad news to the party, but the Crystalyte 53XX series motor is almost impossible to use effectively in a rear wheel format. The right side spoke bracing angle is nil; that's why I got a front 5305 as my first hub motor.

I would only use that motor in combination with a rim that has a lot of spoke hole offset, like the Surly Rabbit Hole. Otherwise you'll have to dish the wheel over to one side just to make it strong enough to ride on.
Click to expand...



The motor I purchased is new laced on a rim.What is this Dish that you speak of?..Mounting the wheel more to one side? how would that make it stronger?
 
PeteB said:
Chalo said:
I don't want to bring bad news to the party, but the Crystalyte 53XX series motor is almost impossible to use effectively in a rear wheel format. The right side spoke bracing angle is nil; that's why I got a front 5305 as my first hub motor.

I would only use that motor in combination with a rim that has a lot of spoke hole offset, like the Surly Rabbit Hole. Otherwise you'll have to dish the wheel over to one side just to make it strong enough to ride on.
Click to expand...



The motor I purchased is new laced on a rim.What is this Dish that you speak of?..Mounting the wheel more to one side? how would that make it stronger?
Click to expand...

Hey Chalo.....You told me about a problem, Well sort of..You Don't want to answer my question?
 
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