Quick pointers on converting a full sus MTB pls

Diesel Burner

100 µW
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
8
I'm an absolute newbie, and now digging out my copy of Ohms law since my college Electronic days! It's all a bit baffling here initially - but I'll get there I'm sure :)

Any initial pointers would be very much appreciated though as I'm looking to get back on the bike and claim my fitness back whilst making a new 16 mile daily (round trip) commute fast and practical. What would work for me:

  • I have a Mongoose MTB with disk brakes and full suspension to convert.

    Hate the idea of front wheel drive.

    Seems to make sense to mount batteries as low down as poss on frame - esp because of rear suspension?

    I'm used to big motorbikes so it should pack some punch.

    Budget £500 = $1000

    No big hills on route.

    I love the idea of it being a motor that drives the crank and hence benefits from gears etc

    Seems to be some iffy Chinese technology out there?

    A good UK supplier?

As I said any quick pointers most welcome.

Thx

D
 
I usually write pretty long, comprehensive posts to try to answer every question a first-timer has, but... quick pointers it is! :wink:

Is the rear swingarm of the Mongoose steel or aluminum? If you have no idea, take a magnet to it and tell us if it sticks.

There are two ways you can go about it: chain drive or hub motor. Most people use hub motors, which are direct drive motors that sit in the wheel's hub. They're very rugged and dead easy to install. The biggest drawback of a direct-drive hub motor is its weight; to have the same power output as a faster-spinning geared motor, a hub motor needs to have more torque, and to do that it bust be heavier. Of course, 10lbs isn't a whole lot in perspective when you add a 200lb rider. Chain drives generally are lighter, more efficient, and can be noisier than a hub setup (though not necessarily on all counts). The problem is that they're more difficult for the average commuter to build and maintain.

You can run a motor through the bottom bracket (BB) of the bike. Several folks have very successful builds using a BB drive, and there are some bb kits out there. You can use the chainrings as a reduction gear and then use the rear gears to shift. It might be better to use an internally-geared hub like a Nexus 7 than a traditional derailleur, though, but someone else would know better than I.

When you say "it should pack a punch", what exactly do you mean? How much power do you need? Do you want great acceleration, or a high top speed, or both? What sort of cruising speed do you want for your commute, and what sort of top speed would you want for the weekends? And what sort of range do you want (you will easily find uses for extra range!)?

I'm a hub motor guy myself. There's a wide range of them out there, from little cheap brushed ones to the 25lb monster that is the Crystalyte x5 (aka 5300 aka Phoenix). Generally the power ratings on them are very conservative, and they tolerate overvolting exceptionally well. They take a real beating.

So, a a quick primer on hub motors. The most popular are the Crystalyte hubs, which come in two lines: the 400-series and the 5300-series. The 400s are 12lbs and can deliver 1kw-1.5kw of power continuously and 2.5kw for short bursts without overheating. They'll do 30-35mph without too much trouble, and they can hit 40 for short periods. The x5s, on the other hand, are meant for high-power bikes. They'll easily do 40mph, and in some extreme cases can do 60mph. With the right batteries, they can have insane acceleration and hill climbing. Both motors are virtually silent (my freewheel ratcheting is louder than my 5303). A 400 or x5 will set you back $300 or $450 respectively.

Then there's the BMC/Puma, which is sort of in the middle. It is internally geared, making it (slightly) louder than a direct-drive hub. It's light (9lbs), and has incredible torque. Puma setups generally top out in the 30mph range,and I'm not sure how far they can be pushed. Still, in the 20-30mph range, their acceleration is only matched by really powerful x5 setups. Unfortunately, they cost a mint, at somewhere above $500.

And there are several smaller motors and kits, like brushed Crystalyte motors, Wilderness Energy, Golden Motor, and the like. They're less expensive, less powerful, but fun nonetheless.

And... your battery. The battery often takes up half the budget, and it has a huge impact on the range and speed you can achieve. Nowadays, for a new build, it's best to go straight for lithium batteries, with cheap Chinese LiFePO4 on the market. Some of it is iffy, and some is pretty nice. The Chinese supplier most folks here have had good experiences with is a fellow named Ping, who assembles lithium packs and sells them on ebay. They're amazing for the price, as long as you don't need too much power from them (like for an x5). Ping packs are often called "duct tape" batteries because he wraps them in duct tape instead of heatshrink.

My boilerplate recommendation is a Crystalyte 400-series hub motor, a 48v 10ah-20ah LiFePO4 "duct tape" battery, and a 72v controller for a commuter bike with some kick and some range. You can hit 30mph with such a setup, and depending on the battery size and your speed you could get anywhere from 20 to 40 miles of range.

If you want to do a chain drive or bottom bracket drive, someone with more expertise in that area can help you. I also suggest you take a look in the Photos and Videos thread to look at some builds and get some ideas.

I don't know much about UK suppliers, but there are several active forum members on your side of the pond who can help you out.

And of course, if you have any other questions, feel free to ask.
 
That is a fantastic help lazarus - many thanks.

I will be going along a delightful track that follows the river to the city centre here, where I live, in Wales. A speed much higher than a pedal bike fast cruise wouldnt be that useful as it is a shared track (although wide in places). Sounds to me as if your Crystalite 5303 option would be more than good enough - I would want a good speed controller though - not just an on off!

I'll research what you suggested further and get a magnet out for my swingarm :)

Many thanks again.

D
 
Hi

I've checked out my Mongoose Full Sus MTB and it does have an alloy rear swing arm - not steel. It also has a 9 speed cassette. I pray the disk brake would align with any new motor hub, but the rest is not good news I guess :? :( Does this kill it for this great bike?

I was kind of settling on a Crystalyte Phoenix 1500w running at 36 volts on a 35A controller, but I need to research this a bit more to see if it is the best for a 15-25mph av speed on a journey of about 8 miles x 2.

I found a very useful calculator for the variables on http://www.crystalyte.com/ - you can adjust many of the paramaters. I'm looking for good pickup and a good efficiency at 20mph, so I'll be fiddling values here for a bit!

Any comment on the above would continue to be extremely helpful for me at this early stage. Also if there are any Brits out ther running Crystalyte kit, can you let me know where you got them from as Crystalyte dont actually list a dealer in UK. Failing that a well priced, international shipping agent in US pls.

I'm really getting into this now :mrgreen: 8)

D
 
Welcome to the Forum.

A good calulator to use is from Ebike.ca's website.
the 530X motors are plenty powerfull, about 1/3 more powerfull than the 40X series, but 25 pounds, and putting on a disc brake would involve some custom building. (its been done)
the 40X series are 16 pounds for a rear motor, and can be had with a disk brake, or retrofitted with a new side cover and spin on adaptor. My 40X series is capable of outrunning a 50CC gas scooter. With more power and weight, it would stop being a bicycle and start being a motorbike. A silent one. Not realy a bad thing, but at that point, I could buy a motorbike cheaper than converting to an Ebike.
 
Thanks DS. Is your Schwin a full sus?

Sounds like I am better off with a 40 series - I cant custom machine components, and this custs the costs on this first step. I'd hate to loose the disk brake - that would be a big step back.

Noise on a fast machine is a GOOD thing in my book! I had a noisy motorbike, and guess what - no pedestrian ever stepped out into my path from between queuing cars! They only look if they hear that its worthwhile...

D
 
Well, I hate to break it to you, but moost ebike systems are almost completely silent. An airhorn might fix that, though. :mrgreen:

Do you have a front disc too? Most of your braking power will come from it, since when you
decelerate your weight is transfered forward, giving the front tire better grip.

There is no reason your bike won't make a great ebike. A good full suspension bike is absolutely worth it; your rear will thank you. You should be able to fit a 400-series, a 7speed freewheel, and a disc brake without much trouble.

A 5300 is only suitable if you need more power than a 400 can possibly provide. Otherwise you're better off with the lighter motor.

I also suggest you use a 48v setup. It'll give the bike a much better feel than a 36v setup. You might want to consider using a 72v controller, which will give you the freedom to later increase the voltage should you need more power.

Use the calculator at ebikes.ca/simulator. It's quite accurate.
 
I find it so difficult to judge how much power I need when I have not ridden an e-bike. However I need to get to a point of placing an order so current thoughts are along the lines of :

Crystalyte rear 406 or 407 motor - I need to decide which for this 26" wheel. 406 has less torque but higher rpm yes due to fewer windings on stators? Better for higher speed, but pedal a bit more for hills yes?

E bike do the motor suitable for disk brake, so that should be fine.

I also assume they will supply a torque arm? [will call them for a chat once they re-stock)

48V Ping battery pack - need to decide how where to mount - esp on a full sus. My bike is this one http://www.paulscycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m1b2s1p438 so has useful space under the high bottom tube. Get something custom made to hold controller & batteries maybe?

Controller - dont understand these yet - they are amp limiters to give speed control and so as motors last and batteries dont expire too quick? The higher the voltage rating the better I guess and you can preset the max safe current draw I assume.

Where to mount controller given that a rear rack wont work on a full sus?

Twist grip

Ditch 9 speed cassette for a 7 speed and change the gear change selector for a matching 7 speed


Gosh I am still such a newbie arent I!

D
 
In nearly all cases, you'll have to work out your own torque arm. At the least, you can take a 10mm wrench and bolt it between the dropout and the nut, and hose clamp it to the frame. You can look around for threads on torque arms; there's tons of info.

As far as controllers... where to start. First, burshless motors cannot operate without a controller. The controller turns on and off the windings in the right order to make it smoothly turn. The controllers also take the throttle input and use it to control the motor's speed. Half throttle will give you approximately half speed. Full throttle gives you everything the controller can.

Now, the voltage rating on a controller is a broad description of its maximum voltage before the controller will fail. 36v and 48v controllers often are safe for 60v, and often 72v controllers can go up to 90v.

The current limit is the maximum current the controller will allow. When the motor tries to draw more, the controller throttles it back to keep it at its maximum. Generally this protects the batteries and controller, and to an important but slightly lesser extent, the motor.

More voltage will get you more speed, while more current gets you more torque, which in turn means better acceleration and hill climbing. Volts x amps determines power into the motor, and speed x torque determines power out.

You can use seatpost racks on a fs bike. Just don't overload it.

Hub motors use freewheels, not freehubs and casettes. Just so you know.
 
Diesel Burner said:
X
Noise on a fast machine is a GOOD thing in my book! I had a noisy motorbike, and guess what - no pedestrian ever stepped out into my path from between queuing cars! They only look if they hear that its worthwhile...

D
How about baseball card in bicycle spoke idea? Attach card to frame with clothespin. Check this out:
http://www.spokester.com
2.jpg

"Awesome Motorcycle Sound! The Spokester makes your bike sound just like a roaring motorcycle!"
 
Marty - I aim to be the UK dealer for that. WHAT a safety innovation - kids (and big kids) will be prtotected from cars by the rasp. The faster they go the safer they will be!!!

Lazarus - thanks again for the pointers. It is coming together now :)

D
 
Diesel Burner,

Hi, and welcome. I second just about everything that Lazarus has said.

But I would add that the regulations here in the UK are different to the US and Canada. A lot of people here are also looking at some of the lower powered geared motors such as the Suzhou Bafang. Myself I do like the Crystalyte 400 series - I'm putting together a system with one of those and LiFePO4 batteries. You've already found the website at http://www.ebikes.ca and it is one of the most informative around

Which part of the UK are you in? I'm in Somerset.

Nick
 
Tiberius said:
Diesel Burner,

Hi, and welcome. I second just about everything that Lazarus has said.

But I would add that the regulations here in the UK are different to the US and Canada. A lot of people here are also looking at some of the lower powered geared motors such as the Suzhou Bafang. Myself I do like the Crystalyte 400 series - I'm putting together a system with one of those and LiFePO4 batteries. You've already found the website at http://www.ebikes.ca and it is one of the most informative around

Which part of the UK are you in? I'm in Somerset.

Nick

Hi Nick, I've had to put this project on hold due to a sick daughter, but she's better know (pneumonia :cry: ). So I am gearing up again to place an order with someone. I am still angling towards the Crystalyte 400 series - do you have a link to the batteries you mention?

I'm based in Cardiff.

Cheers

D
 
hello mate, im from the UK too, I got the parts from http://www.ebikes.ca/store/ but they are out of stock for a week of two until their new shipment arrives, they ship to the UK no probs, My setup was a 408 front hub, 35a 72v speed controller, and a cycle analyst (if you order the cycle analyst and the SC together at the same time they calibrate them for you) and I run 3 x 6s 10ah lipo batts in series, at 66.6v, this gives me lots of torque, and a top speed of around 33 mph, the CA you can set the cut off voltage so perfect for lipos, and using the Hyperion balance chargers it is safe and quick charging them.
 
Diesel Burner said:
So I am gearing up again to place an order with someone. I am still angling towards the Crystalyte 400 series - do you have a link to the batteries you mention?

I'm based in Cardiff.

Cheers

D

Sorry, don't have a link to hand, but I've ordered some cells from Headway. There's a thread on them in the batteries section with the details. Another source is Ping, but he seems to have scaled back his operation quite severely.

I should be getting a delivery sent from ebikes.ca later this week. If you lived closer to me I would suggest combining the shipping - but Cardiff is another country (grin).

Nick
 
I have been looking into the same set up, and the hardest thing on a full suspension bike is mounting the batteries. Even a moderate 15 pound lithium pack has no where to go. Those trunk racks that attach to the seatpost will act like diving boards on a bumpy road. I have heard of them failing quickly with 15-20 pounds on them unless you only ride on really smooth roads. then you wouldn't need the full suspension anyway. The FS frames really don't have a lot of space to rig up a holder for the batteries that is solid and out of the way. I'd like to see what other clever people have come up with to mount batteries on these kinds of bikes.
 
What we need is frames with the rack built in and rated to about 50 lbs. Like the top tube continues right through the seatpost mount. Maybe you could fasten two small tubes along the top tube, have them pass on either side of the seatpost with whatever bend they need there, and form a strong mount for the rack. Heavy, but not for the ebike market. Too bad custom frames run a couple thou.
 
dogman said:
What we need is frames with the rack built in and rated to about 50 lbs. Like the top tube continues right through the seatpost mount. Maybe you could fasten two small tubes along the top tube, have them pass on either side of the seatpost with whatever bend they need there, and form a strong mount for the rack. Heavy, but not for the ebike market. Too bad custom frames run a couple thou.

Nope.

You'll end up with a bike that handles like a complete bitch, and nowhere to add a small amount of luggage.

What we need is a frame with a battery space in the triangle, but still dual suspension. Like Getadirtbike's custom frames.
 
Maybe I adjust well to shitty handling, my first motorcycle was a cb 350, now that handled shitty. But for those of us who are using a bike that has the suspension tying up the frame space, there are few solutions besides Link's backpack or some kind of rear rack. Too hot for that pack in my town. I run a 15 pound lithium so I really don't feel anything that weird back there. 25 pounds of lead did feel funny, and I would have broke the rack pretty quick. My hub is up front by the way, I'm sure it's different for rear hubs. I never, ever coast through a corner. The pull through the corner from the front wheel feels great to me. Goose the throtle cures all handling problems to me and allways has, bike, car, whatever. Obviously the higher you carry the weight the worse it gets. But like I said, custom farmes cost, I'm riding walmart bought used so I could afford a good battery. I will wear it out and upgrade later. Were I to design a frame, It would look a lot like an old school motorcycle, with two shocks attached to the frame behind the seat. The battey would go in the frame triangle, and a big crate of groceries in the rear carrier that is right above the shock mounts. For a really long trip, I could chuck more batteries in the crate. You can see my bikes in the pic post section under Dogmans WE bikes.
 
sell the full suspension mtb because there is nowhere near enough room to put batteries and shopping. buy an olde mtb with a large triangle and shove the batteries in there and on the rear rack.
 
I repeat, I'm riding a wallmart bike, bought used, so I could spend the money on a Lifpo4 battery. Once I ditched the 33 lb lead pack, my bikes handling improved dramaticly. I doubt it would have if I had a rear hub. Im new to suspension and love it. I ride hard and have been known to fold back wheels into tacos so suspension lets me spend my evenings making stupid posts instead to truing my wheel. Right now, the grocrery runs are done on the trike, which I could also afford, by being so cheap about the mtb. I'm almost 50 now so if the choice is hardtail for the one hour ride, it's back to the car for me.
 
Not all full sus are the same shape! I have received measurements from Crystalyte of their battery box and I am pretty hopefull it will sit under the bottom tube on my bike - see pic http://shop.tootyred.co.uk/mongoose-teocali-comp-12-p.asp

If it does it is an usefully low CG in the frame too, and I also think I can 're-pack' the batteries in a size and shape that suits the frame and maybe have a custom box made.

I'm evere the optimist mind!

D
 
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