E-BikeKit rewiew, 36 volt front hub

[JinbaIttai]

. . . I've noticed that peak amps is not what the controller allows steady state such as when climbing a hill, in that case the current is normally held an amp or two lower than the peak. . .

Just out of curiosity, what kind of amp readings do you see at full throttle on level ground, no pedaling?

 

[Russell]

. . . I've noticed that peak amps is not what the controller allows steady state such as when climbing a hill, in that case the current is normally held an amp or two lower than the peak. . .

Just out of curiosity, what kind of amp readings do you see at full throttle on level ground, no pedaling?

One time as an experiment to see how much power the motor used I ran my (9x7) 9C at full throttle over exactly one mile of fairly flat road and it stayed between 15 and 20A the entire time, this was at 48V with the stock 22A controller. The motor consumed 0.7Ah for that one mile while maintaining mid 20's (700Cx35). I don't presently have the 9C installed on a bike however I'm looking to build up another ebike using this motor again.

-R

 

[mwkeefer]

Just out of curiosity, what kind of amp readings do you see at full throttle on level ground, no pedaling?

I will sort through my eagletree data later and seperate some flat 1mi WOT accelleration and sustain runs for your viewing pleasure. There is a variance between controllers of as much as 1.5A maximum (stock) due to shunt variances... nothing to worry about. Some get 22.5, some 24, some 21A

-Mike

 

[ambroseliao]

Hey Dogman,

I have this kit and run it on a combination of 6P Bosch Fat Packs and 1S 18AH 12V SLA for a total of 48V. My TF S-750 runs fast enough that I have hard time keeping up with it and have to stop pedaling after a short while. The speed varies between 27 and 29 mph when fresh off the chargers. I need to put a larger crank on the front so I can reduce my cadence when I'm going on a flat or downhill road. I have to say that the difference between 36V and 48V is dramatic. The 48V setup makes keeping up with traffic much easier and passing is also much easier. I highly recommend running the E-BikeKit front wheel 9C motor at 48V.

Ambrose

 

[dogman dan]

Yeah, just trying to wear out my 36v pingbattery though. Only 10,000 miles to go! I'll be testing the motor on 48v nicads eventually, but they aren't big enough to get me back up the hill from work 15 miles to home. Right now the nicads are bolted to another bike. I am finding I have to be carefull not to spin the wheel at 36v, so I can imagine 48 would get to spinning the tire quite a bit.



It's nice though, to be legal at 36v on this kit. The aotema I've been used to goes 24 mph while this one goes 21. It's not that much slower, It's just that I get hungry on the way home. Just slowing down 3mph is getting better range. Amazing how much farther 21 mph goes compared to 24. I should be albe to go further than 25 miles on my 36v 20 ah pingbattery at full throtte, including some hills. Bear in mind also, my bike couldn't be less aerodynamic.

At some point, I'll do a hypermile test too, my personal best so far is 39 miles on the pingbattery. I bet with the larger diameter motor, the E-BikeKit will go farther.

 

[Rifle]

Hey Dogman,

I have this kit and run it on a combination of 6P Bosch Fat Packs and 1S 18AH 12V SLA for a total of 48V.

How much does a 12v 18ah SLA cost? Where did you get yours?

 

[dogman dan]

12v 18a sla's are common in wheelchairs. Lotsa websites for them, choose a vendor near you, since you are shipping a lead brick.

One thing I always want to know, is when I commute to work, 14.5 miles, can I make it home if the charger breaks or I have to leave work early?

Yesterday I rode to work, charged for one hour at 3 amps, and rode home. Once home, I rode another 4 miles. So with the 36v 20 ah battery, I could have just made it home with no recharging by slowing down to 15 mph. The ride was about 33 miles on 22-23 amp hours of battery. Yeah I know, but without a cycleanalyst that's easier for me to calculate, and noobs barely understand ah anyway. Talk kwh and they are even more confused.

This means with a 36v 20 ah lifepo4, I could ride 17 miles to a lunch, and with an opportunity charge for one hour while eating and having a few beers, ride home full speed. That just about covers my entire town, including the big hill to get home. With a 10 ah pack, the distance would be cut to about 8-9 miles. The one hour, 3 amp charge puts 3 ah in, so about 4 miles range per hour of charging.

 

[torker]

So Dogman, How does that range compare to your Aeotoma? Sounds like the 9c is getting a little better range. Did you mostly use the atoma or fusin going to work? I know it's a little early to tell..

 

[ambroseliao]

Hi Rifle,

As Dogman says, find the battery near to you to save on shipping. I bought mine from here.

http://www.batterymart.com/p-12v-18ah-sealed-lead-acid-battery-1.html

They are in VA and I'm in MD.

Reading your signature, what's going on with your 9C that keeps breaking down?

Ambrose

 

[dogman dan]

I've been waiting for more data to accumulate before starting a thread comparing all the motors I've had. But here is the basics on the 'Fusin gearmotor, the Aotema dd motor, and the E-BikeKit motor. All run on the same 36v battery. 2100 miles on the aotema, 600 miles on the Fusin, 130 miles on the E-BikeKit.

Aotema is fastest, about 3mph, top speed 24 mph. And the simplest, with no hall sensors. It's a bit slow for the first 5 mph, but takes off by 10 mph.

E-BikeKit has the fastest acceleration, and better hill climbing performance than the Aotema. Better efficiency than the aotema, 21 mph top speed makes it 3 mph slower, so it gets the efficiency from slower speed. At the same speed, they may be equal in efficiency, but I haven't done the test yet. 48v would pep it up in the top speed of course.

The Fusin kit is the tourqiest , and can climb steeper hills since it is a gearmotor. A 350 watt kit, it is very efficient, it takes off a bit slow, but can get up to 20 mph eventually. The low wattage makes it slow on hills or into the wind. This motor is also said to really improve in the 48v version, that has a higher amp controller. I need to try this one with a higher amp controller sometime. I bet it would be great at 700 watts.

Just heading out for a ride till the pack dies range test, on a standard route I use for comparing to others. Results will post soon but you will have to look for them on that first post with all the other stuff.

Edit, holy crap! I just rode 30.6 miles full throttle on a 20 ah 36v pingbattery. 98% of the ride was at 19.5 to 21.5 mph. Very light pedaling, only adding at most .5 mph to the speed, and 400 feet of vertical on the route. Wind 7 mph.

Thats better range than the Aotema by 8 miles. Size does matter, the larger diameter motor is a definite advantage in tourque, and apparently efficiency too.

 

[Rifle]

Reading your signature, what's going on with your 9C that keeps breaking down?

The 9C has been fine, but I'm on my 4th throttle for whatever reason, had a charger break twice, and I've had a lot of connection issues. The most recent one was fixed by simply replacing the plastic housing for the male spade connectors on the throttle and motor connections. I can't see anything wrong with the old plastic housing, but replacing it fixed it so I dunno. I've made my own back-up throttle and these connection issues are easy enough to trouble shoot and fix, but hopefully things will start running dependably sometime soon. There's not many things left to go wrong outside of the controller and the motor. The range on my batteries has seemed kind of low lately though. Well, one of them I just bought used. 48v 40ah for 400 bucks, the voltage readings were good so I couldn't pass it up. But it's just so heavy and when I went for a ride I only got 37 miles out of it. So that's why I'm interested in your battery set-up. Very cheap for how many watt-hours it has and very versatile. I don't see myself using that 48v 40ah battery that often. I'd prefer more Fatpacks for using when I mountain bike.

 

[Takemehome]

....The 9C has been fine, but I'm on my 4th throttle for whatever reason,...... The most recent one was fixed by simply replacing the plastic housing for the male spade connectors on the throttle and motor connections. I can't see anything wrong with the old plastic housing, but replacing it fixed it so I dunno. I've made my own back-up throttle and these connection issues are easy enough to trouble shoot and fix...

I had a similar problem with the throttle....cable.
The continuity of two wires was broken. ( the black and the white wire )
The cable was not pinched or stretched or cut.
What happened ? Still a mystery to me.
So make sure it's not your cable that bended a certain way it conducts and if you move it a bit it looses continuity.

 

[recumbent]

Torker,
I could finish my e-bikekit 9fet infineon thread (started long ago, put off because I've been busy testing various combinations, efficiencies, mods, etc) if you guys want more specific detail - but the info is here on ES, just have to search it out.

We would love if you do a write-up on more modifications to our beloved Infineon controlers.

Great comprehensiv review Dogman.

Ques: do the wires comming out of the axle warm-up a bit with hard riding. And can we isolate the ringing noise from the large side plates?

I want to buy a 9-C kit for my bike which as an older 406 Clyte on 48 volts and 35amp.

 

[dogman dan]

This kit stock does not make that much noise, but once in a while I do hear a few seconds of the harmonic noise people talk about. Must happen more with different controllers, or different voltage. Mine is stil quieter than a gearmotor, but you can hear it when the wind noise in the ears is not bad. I am a deaf ol carpenter though, maybe it's making noise on a note I no longer hear. Walkers don't seem to hear me coming, but they do with the gearmotor.

I don't know what to do about sound damping, anybody tried JB weld on the inside of the cover yet? For me, I'd be worried about losing some heat radiating capacity since I live in the desert.

 

[dogman dan]

Speed supressor loop.

Today I found my battery had gotten a bit unbalanced after the range test the other day, so I started to notice the voltage dropping as I arrived at work. After the normal amount of time, I was ready to leave, and the pack had not fully charged. A perfect time to make use of the miser mode and use less power to get home, since I don't want to run out of juice miles from home.

I found the 11-12.5 mph speed did not mean I slowed to a crawl on hills, on the steeper ones, 9-10 mph was still possible, and even when not pedaling, it still got up some fairly steep stuff, like 5% at 6-7 mph. Sure it was slow, but I got home without risking my battery. A beautiful day, 65F, with the leaves turning made it perfect to slow down and enjoy the ride home a bit more than normaly. Not the way I'd ride everyday, but still a great feature to have. I could have just used less throttle, but then I'd have to spend the whole ride backing off the throttle. And even on the steeper bits, the low speed setting still seemed to have adequate torque to get me up the hill.

 

[MattDog]

The rub here is that this is that the "Infineon" controller in this kit that has now been branded perhaps the 800th different way (and yes I do exaggerate)....mine actually has "Nine Continent" with their horribly boring logo printed on the back...the one in the reviewed kit seems a bit less decisive...WTF is it...really...only the shadow knows.

Please let me explain again....I entered this game LATE August 2009...I'm pitching a fit....a little...mostly I'm a bad scientist and engineer...BUT....my bike has worked very day since day 1...and....

Please tell me who really builds that controller so I do some epic damage!

 

[dogman dan]

Maybe ask that again in the tech section. I really don't know what my controller is, but am only seeing how it rides out on the road. I'm just the try to break it in normal use guy here. I get to do these reviews because I put in miles, and don't stop riding in the winter.

BTW Matt, your signature shows an ampedbike kit. This thread is a review of the one from E-BikeKit. I have no clue if the controllers used in the kits are the same one.

 

[dogman dan]

Range on the low speed mode.

Doing a short 4 mile ride on the flat, I came up with 1.25 ah used for the 4 miles. This gives a theoretical range of 60 miles, but most 60 mile rides will have some hills. Average speed was 13.2 mph. That is pretty efficeint when you need that kind of range.

At similar speeds, the aotema motor would go about 39 miles. It looks to me like the E-BikeKit wins the long distance contest at low speeds. Someday I'll have to try a full distance test, to see if the ping could really last 60 miles.

 

[dogman dan]

Battery is back to normal. It got unbalanced from riding till cutoff, NOT from anything to do with the motor kit.

 

[mwkeefer]

Battery is back to normal. It got unbalanced from riding till cutoff, NOT from anything to do with the motor kit.

dogman,

That's a bad sign, no?

I mean with regards to the remaining longevity of your pack or is this LiFePo4 chemsitry / cell design situation?

I know my packs (lipo) get far out of balance durring discharge but... when I recharge them, even on a bulk charger - they always come back into balance... also I should define way out of balance at LVC of 3.2 some cells may read 3.5 and some 3.3 after load is removed. When charged they balance out to between 4.15 and 4.13v per cell.

Regards,
Mike

 

[dogman dan]

As my pack get older, I am noticing that a discharge all the way to cutoff tends to leave it unbalanced on the next charge. It's always come back after 2 charges, and I try to avoid two discharges to cutoff in a row. This last time was the most unbalanced I have ever seen it. I do one or two discharges to cutoff a year, just to monitor the capcity, and see if any is lost. Or to find the max range with a new motor. Then during the year, I may do a few more when on long distance rides where I may go 60 miles in one day. I find that if I just stop when the first voltage sag is noticed, about 1.5 miles before cutoff, I don't get so unbalanced.

99% of my riding is about 60-80% discharge.

 

[dogman dan]

Due to some rainy, and even snowy weather, I've still not reached the 500 mile mark on the new E-BikeKit motor. Still working flawlessly. In the winter, it's not so cold, but my job needs a truck a lot more to haul off the firewood from tree pruning, haul in cement for winter improvement projects etc. So I may ride less than 50 miles a week in Dec and Jan.

I plan to put 500 miles on the motor, and then move it to a bike with better suspension and ride in on the dirt trails. It should do well, it's sure has some tourqe, and the dirt bikes run on 48v nicads, so it should have even more toruqe then.

 

[mwkeefer]

Dogman,

I don't know if your charger has adjustable current but if your using 36v lifepo4 (12s) then an iCharger 1010B+ can provide current from 1-10A with a decent DC supply... Normal charge rate is what 1/2c - 1/4c? Try letting the pack trickle charge at 1/8C using a different power source.. it will give the bleeder BMS a better chance at equalizing the cells to their maximum potential... then see how bad the oob situation is after full discharge.

I just read back the last few pages I had missed, nice - est. 60mi on that ping pack.

The suppressor / limiter loop won't effect accelleration (up to the limit) so it shouldn't interfere with hills at lower speeds, only the speed % which are programmed would affect accelleration and / or top end.

Glad to hear things are going well with the review, curious how you keep toasting thumb throttles?

-Mike

 

[dogman dan]

The ping is back to normal now, just needed a couple cycles to get balanced as usual.

The throttles I break off the thumb tabs since I ride with it 100% about 99% of the time. The bike trail has several big dips to let water cross, and sometimes I get both wheels off the ground at 25 mph. So I bust off the tab landing the jump. I just glue on a piece of 1" pvc pipe and make em half throttles.

 

[mwkeefer]

The ping is back to normal now, just needed a couple cycles to get balanced as usual.

The throttles I break off the thumb tabs since I ride with it 100% about 99% of the time. The bike trail has several big dips to let water cross, and sometimes I get both wheels off the ground at 25 mph. So I bust off the tab landing the jump. I just glue on a piece of 1" pvc pipe and make em half throttles.

That's a tough one... I've jumped my 9FS (thumb) a bit and I know what you mean, I always lego the power on launch and revert to holding onto the bars until i've landed, pedal and throttle out of it.

Full twists are bulky but it's what I put on my specialized and it's far better for off road use (more like a dirt bike) and I've done some MEAN stuff to my ride without breaking anything (> 1K miles, rough riding).

The trails I ride here (if you can call them trails, more like the side of a mtn) have some mougles (I think that's akin to your dips) but I extend my body while taking them and if I get air (I rarely do as I conform to the dips) again I lego the throttle. I guess this is what everyone means by "Technical Riding" and I just take it for granted (many many years motocross - 80cc - 250cc).

You should see me hopping over speedbumps at 30-35mph, full clip. I guess you figured out I rarely sit while riding (old habits die hard).

-Mike

PS: Would you be interested in an Aluminum body thumb thottle to try out (might stand up a bit better for ya)? I have to order one for a custom build and there would be little difference in 1 or 5 units to me.