Rear rim and spokes for MAC hub motor?

Monsoon

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N.E. Ohio
I've got a MAC geared disc hub, and am looking for advice on rim/spokes.

I dug around tonight through a bunch of threads, and I see DT Swiss 2.0 spokes being mentioned for durable spokes.

I also spotted the Mavic 721 mountain bike rim being mentioned, but I need a 700c rim.

Anything out there tough like the Mavic, but in a 700c?

How about the spokes, any alternatives to the DT Swiss?

edit* what about spoke length. I assume that's a variable depending on wheel and hub diameters.
is there maybe a calculator that you use for this?
 
Monsoon said:
I've got a MAC geared disc hub, and am looking for advice on rim/spokes.

I dug around tonight through a bunch of threads, and I see DT Swiss 2.0 spokes being mentioned for durable spokes.

I also spotted the Mavic 721 mountain bike rim being mentioned, but I need a 700c rim.

Anything out there tough like the Mavic, but in a 700c?

How about the spokes, any alternatives to the DT Swiss?

I try to stay away from using Mavic rims anymore; their quality has slipped greatly since their heyday of the '70s and '80s and they now have the dubious distinction of the rims most likely to crack or make noises at any price.

For a disc specific 700c rim in the same general vein, check out the Velocity P35/Blunt 35 which is a nice basic rim at a premium price. The Sun Rhyno Lite 700c is a great time-proven rim in the same weight class that can be used with a rim brake or a hub brake. It's very inexpensive by comparison, but a fine rim regardless.

If you want a ridiculously strong rim in 700c and you don't need a very wide one, check out the Velocity Chukker. It has a deep section like the Velocity Deep-V, but it's stronger, and wide enough for mountain bike tires. If ridiculously strong isn't strong enough, have a look at this rim, designed for mountain unicycling.

Sapim spokes are the equal of DT Swiss, and they can be had for a song at Danscomp.com-- $0.25 for straight gauge, $0.40 for double butted.
 
@Chalo thanks for the good walkthrough on this.

The Nimbus rim looks interesting but something tells me it's a lot of overkill.
So i'll probably go with the Sun Rhyno Lite wheel.
This looks like what I need. It's a 16mm rim, which is pretty close to what's on the bike now. And that rim came with 42mm tires on it, although I have 35's on it now. And it matches the spoke count of the MAC hub.

Amazon has it for $32 shipped.
http://www.amazon.com/SunRingle-Rhyno-Lite-Silver-Presta/dp/B001CJZ6VG


I spent some time on the Sapim site, and it seems that their Aero Strong spoke is the strongest one they carry, and has a thicker end section for tandems and ebikes. So i'll be going with those.

Also, Danscomp only has Sapim laser spokes for racing-only, so i'll be picking those up the Strong series somewhere else.

One more thing, I assume spoke length varies, right? How do I determine the right length for the rim and MAC hub that I have?
 
What size tire are you planning to use? I use 1/2 the tire width to determine minimum inside rim width. This will give you the most stable ride. Lots of people use rims that are way too narrow imo.
This is the rim I use with my 2.4" tires and would use them on tires as small as 2.0".
http://www.weinmanntek.com/Products/FREESTYLE/DH39.htm
 
wesnewell said:
What size tire are you planning to use? I use 1/2 the tire width to determine minimum inside rim width. This will give you the most stable ride. Lots of people use rims that are way too narrow imo.
This is the rim I use with my 2.4" tires and would use them on tires as small as 2.0".
http://www.weinmanntek.com/Products/FREESTYLE/DH39.htm


I have 35's on it now, so going by the 1/2 rule, i'd want something around 17-18mm?
 
I'd consider 18mm as minimum. I'd use up to 24mm.
http://sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html
 
What about welded rims vs. pinned rims?

Does it make enough difference to use welded rims for bike paths?
 
wesnewell said:
I'd consider 18mm as minimum. I'd use up to 24mm.
http://sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html
ok, so it's better to use a slightly wider rim, than slightly more narrow?

I might as well go the preferred route now, especially in case I go a little bit bigger tire size down the road.
 
this will answer your rim width questions:

http://sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html#width

it is fairly conservative, people do go outside those bounds. But yeah, if you are going to go bigger than 2 inches, the 24mm is a good bet. You can do it on a 19mm rim, but its going to be pinched a bit and not have great lateral stability.

Schwalbe has an interesting chart too for their tires that isn't quite so conservative as I recall
 
chas58 said:
this will answer your rim width questions:

http://sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html#width

it is fairly conservative, people do go outside those bounds. But yeah, if you are going to go bigger than 2 inches, the 24mm is a good bet. You can do it on a 19mm rim, but its going to be pinched a bit and not have great lateral stability.

Schwalbe has an interesting chart too for their tires that isn't quite so conservative as I recall
I don't mind going a little bigger if it makes good sense.

And I certainly would want to get that done anyway in case I go to a larger tire size along the way.
 
Monsoon said:
What about welded rims vs. pinned rims?

Does it make enough difference to use welded rims for bike paths?

Are you using disc or rim brakes? Pinned rims that aren't pinned straight will have a little "thunk" each time the brake pads come across the rim join. Welded rims can have this as well if the weld isn't straight. Well made pinned rims won't have any "thunk" and neither will well made welded rims. Welded construction is a little lighter, which doesn't matter for your application.

Welded joins are more typically found are higher end rims, but both types of construction can be done poorly and well.

I wouldn't make the type of rim construction a factor in your decision. Get something wide enough for a wide tire with a thick spoke bed that won't crack. The Sapim 13/14G spokes are a good choice, but they will crack lightweight rims (assuming high spoke tension).

The Velocity P35 mentioned above is good.
 
The Sun Rhyno Lite is about 21mm inside width, and 27.5mm outside width. It's a good choice for fat tires, and for narrower ones down to about 32mm.

PInned joints in rims are in practice just as strong as welded ones, because in spoked wheels the rims are under compression at all times. Welded joints have come into wide use not because they make stronger rims, but because they simplify the manufacturing process of rims with machined sidewalls. Pick your rim for its other characteristics like width, weight, and sectional shape, and take whichever kind of joint you get.

13-14ga spokes like Sapim Strong are nice in that their large elbows do a better job of fitting into the flange holes in a hub motor, and their 14ga shanks have more elasticity than straight 13ga spokes. But note that stronger spokes don't usually make a stronger wheel. The strength of the wheel is in the rim, and it's usually a thinner, more elastic spoke that makes a wheel more reliable-- because it can follow the flexing of the rim under riding loads without going slack. Because of this, a 14-15ga double butted spoke usually makes a more trouble-free wheel, and at Danscomp prices is much cheaper than 13-14ga single butted.

Hub motors are often drilled for big fat spokes, and it's helpful to put washers under the spoke heads when the spokes are much thinner than the diameter of the holes.
 
Dans only carries lengths of double butted that work in popular bmx wheels, unfortunately.

I would choose 13/14 and a rhyno lite or Salsa Delgado Cross rim. Good all around balance.
 
johnrobholmes said:
Dans only carries lengths of double butted that work in popular bmx wheels, unfortunately.

I would choose 13/14 and a rhyno lite or Salsa Delgado Cross rim. Good all around balance.

I've built plenty of wheels from DansComp double butted 14G/15G spokes (26" 1-Cross motors and 26" 3-Cross fronts). They have a problem with the smaller wheels since the butted end gets cut off. So, for my 24" 1-cross 9C clone, I had to go with straight gauge (measurement was something like 140mm). But for the front 24" 3 cross (small shimano hub), they were able to do it with the butted spokes.
 
Chalo said:
The Sun Rhyno Lite is about 21mm inside width, and 27.5mm outside width. It's a good choice for fat tires, and for narrower ones down to about 32mm.
No, it's a lousy choice for fat tires. Good choice for a 35mm tire though. Try using a 2.4" tire on a 21mm inside diameter tire and you stand a bigger risk of it not seating properly and blowing out the tube inflating it. Easier pinch flats. Rolling the tire off the rim when cornering. Wheel (tire) wobble. And having your vbrakes hit the tire when applying. You can avoid that with more spacers, but it also lessens the brakes effectiveness.
 
wesnewell said:
Chalo said:
The Sun Rhyno Lite is about 21mm inside width, and 27.5mm outside width. It's a good choice for fat tires, and for narrower ones down to about 32mm.
No, it's a lousy choice for fat tires. Good choice for a 35mm tire though. Try using a 2.4" tire on a 21mm inside diameter tire and you stand a bigger risk of it not seating properly and blowing out the tube inflating it. Easier pinch flats. Rolling the tire off the rim when cornering. Wheel (tire) wobble. And having your vbrakes hit the tire when applying. You can avoid that with more spacers, but it also lessens the brakes effectiveness.

I hear what you are saying here-- wider is better when you want to use wide tires. And that's true. But it's also true that the Sun Rhyno Lite is among the wider rims in common circulation, and it's definitely on the short list of wide 700c rims. And it's strong, and cheap. What's not to like?

For the first half of the 1990s, MTB rims wider than about 25mm outside (thus about 18mm inside) were difficult to find. But that coincided with the appearance of tires in the 2.5" width range. Back then, we mounted those big tires on narrow rims because that was what we had to work with. I used to put Fisher Bear Trax 2.6" and Specialized Ground Control Extreme 2.5" tires on sub-20mm wide rims (about 13mm inside width). They worked OK, though to me it seems that ideally a tire should be about twice the inside width of the rim.

For 700c rims wider than the Sun Rhyno Lite, I can think of only a few-- the Velocity Psycho (no longer listed on their website), the Velocity Blunt (almost the same size as the Rhyno Lite) and Blunt 35 (wider), the Surly Rabbit Hole (spendy), the Nimbus unicycle rim I linked to, and a couple of other expensive mountain unicycle rims. If you know of others, please list them.

The Rhyno Lite is a wide mountain bike rim by design, and it's been used for a long time with wider tires than 2.4". It weighs about the same as the Velocity P35, costs half as much, and accepts a rim brake. In 700c there are just not a lot of better options for big tires.

By the way, you are wrong about pinch flats. Fat tires on narrow rims give better suspension characteristics at the same pressure than fat tires on wide rims. You just have to use higher pressure before they'll stabilize, and given enough miles they can wear the tire casing out at the edge of the rim. There are drawbacks to fat tires on narrow rims, but worsened pinch flatting isn't one of them.
 
johnrobholmes said:
Dans only carries lengths of double butted that work in popular bmx wheels, unfortunately.
I'm building a few wheels. All the spokes were 14/15 double butted from Danscomp except the 148mm were straight 14 ga as those are too short to thread on the butted stock.

20" Rhynolite:
- 148 mm 14ga, SWXU laced x1
- 187/189mm, Deore M-590 R x3

26" DM-24
- 194/195mm, BPM x1
- 264m, Deore M-590 F x3

26" Rhynolite
- 217/218mm, SWXH x1

700c Arraya
- 295mm, old Specialized x3

So while spokes under 180mm (I don't know how much shorter is ok, 148 is too short) may not be available as double butted, almost any larger size is.
 
Monsoon said:
One more thing, I assume spoke length varies, right? How do I determine the right length for the rim and MAC hub that I have?
I like the EDD spoke calculator.

Also, if you are ordering more stuff, Niagara Cycles is where a lot of the Amazon items come from, but they have free shipping on $100 or over.
 
Weinmann makes several 700C rims wider than 21mm inside width, up to 35mm in the DHL-42. The problem with all wider rims is finding them. And yes, I was mistaken about the pinch flats.
http://sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html#width
 
@Chalo I really don't want to have to fuss with spacers, so I think i'll go with the Sapim Strong spokes for the large elbow.

@chas58 thanks, that sheldonbrown link has a lot of useful info on it.
Since I don't plan on having big tires on this, I think i'll go with a 21mm-24mm range.

@johnrobholmes you must be the owner of the holmeshobbies, right?
I found that link while looking up some of the comments in here last night.
so yeah, it's safe to say that you have an idea about this stuff.
I'll probably go with the 13/14 Sapim's then.
But just as a curiosity, I notice you also carry down into the 11 gauge range.
Does that fit an ebike hub better? What about the nipple end, do the larger nipples fit standard rim holes?
What i'm thinking here is that whatever the standard hub/rim hole sizes are, should probably dictate what size spoke I use, no? I mean, I see people mentioning spacers and I really don't want to add to the complexity/potential failure points.
As far as the Sun Rhyno rim goes, I notice there is an XT version of the lite wheel. Is that a heavier duty version?

And a question for everyone here: I notice several mentions for lighter rims.
but it seems to me that when we're talking larger tire sizes (non road bike size) that any rim-weight-efficiency pretty much goes out the window. I mean, the extra tire weight of a 42mm size pretty much kills any percieved efficiency.
that being said, is there any rim candidate that is robust that you might otherwise mention, but is a bit heavier?
I would rather do this just once, and if it means an extra ounce or two of metal on the rim then so be it.
 
Most mountain bike rims work best with 14 or 15ga. 13ga is big enough to hold well in the MAC hub. Thus, 13/14 is the best all around choice that is easily available. The 13/15/14 "force" spokes could be cut into a 13/15. We don't carry them though, not sure who does and has a spoke machine.

Holmes Hobbies and VoltRiders are my companies, yes. I've been building bike wheels since about 1995 and have two apprentices at VoltRiders.
 
-dg said:
Monsoon said:
One more thing, I assume spoke length varies, right? How do I determine the right length for the rim and MAC hub that I have?
I like the EDD spoke calculator.

Also, if you are ordering more stuff, Niagara Cycles is where a lot of the Amazon items come from, but they have free shipping on $100 or over.

Check this new one that I just found: (I've been using the one you listed and haven't built wheels with this new one)

http://wheelspoking.com/Build.aspx?Mode=Basic
 
johnrobholmes said:
Most mountain bike rims work best with 14 or 15ga. 13ga is big enough to hold well in the MAC hub. Thus, 13/14 is the best all around choice that is easily available. The 13/15/14 "force" spokes could be cut into a 13/15. We don't carry them though, not sure who does and has a spoke machine.

Holmes Hobbies and VoltRiders are my companies, yes. I've been building bike wheels since about 1995 and have two apprentices at VoltRiders.

I just got off the phone with the tire guy at a bike shop here in Ohio, I wanted to see what rims they carried.
Anyway we got to talking about spokes and he mentioned the Swiss Alpine spokes as being the best spoke to use.
How would you say they compare to the Sapim Strong series? Any real world difference? Enough to justify the higher cost?
 
Monsoon said:
I just got off the phone with the tire guy at a bike shop here in Ohio, I wanted to see what rims they carried.
Anyway we got to talking about spokes and he mentioned the Swiss Alpine spokes as being the best spoke to use.
How would you say they compare to the Sapim Strong series? Any real world difference? Enough to justify the higher cost?

Those are 13/15/14ga butted spokes. In practice, they seem to break even more often than 14/15ga butted spokes (which to be fair isn't often at all). So the promise of the thick elbow doesn't seem to pan out. They would do a better job of filling fat hub holes, but to me that's not worth paying extra for.
 
As far as the rim goes, I still plan on getting the Sun Rhyno lite, but i've ran into something really strange with different listings of the weight.
I'm seeing weights as low as 420g with this one
http://www.amazon.com/Sun-Rhyno-Lite-700c-Black/dp/B006FCG35S/ref=sr_1_2?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1374898022&sr=1-2&keywords=Sun+Rhyno+Lite+700c+36h
with most of the listings being mid 600g range to 690g at the high end.
Now call me crazy, but I think there's no way in hell that the same model of rim in the same size and spoke count can vary by 250g or more.
It's making it difficult for me to know who is selling what here. And the only actual difference that I can tell from one to the other is some have the machines sides. But the weight even varies on that from site to site.

@dg the EDD spoke calculator doesn't seem to have data for the MAC hub motor.

@cal3thousand the wheelspoking spoke calculator looks like something an MIT grad cooked up for other MIT grads. :shock:
And to make matters worse, I've been digging around for a couple of hours on this and the spoke lengths are different from side to side... or might not be depending on my bike frame. Ugh.
So I might have to take the hub and whatever rim I get to the local bike shop and have them figure it out.
Which could be a problem if they don't carry the spokes I want.
 
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