Redox Shuttle - U. of Chicago

[TylerDurden]

Ask this company how US Patent 7,851,092 will effect "investor relations" . Posted patent topic on Jan 18 , a little ahead of the news curve for battery tech , its real , genuine made in America tech savvy .

Thats a good bit there. Thanks for posting.

• "The present invention is generally related to electrolytes containing novel redox shuttles for overcharge protection of lithium-ion batteries. The redox shuttles are capable of thousands hours of overcharge tolerance and have a redox potential at about 3-5.5 V vs. Li and particularly about 4.4-4.8 V vs. Li. Accordingly, in one aspect the invention provides electrolytes comprising an alkali metal salt; a polar aprotic solvent; and a redox shuttle additive that is an aromatic compound having at least one aromatic ring with four or more electronegative substituents, two or more oxygen atoms bonded to the aromatic ring, and no hydrogen atoms bonded to the aromatic ring; and wherein the electrolyte solution is substantially non-aqueous. Further there are provided electrochemical devices employing the electrolyte and methods of making the electrolyte."

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7851092.html

ps: not to be confused with the allcell stuff.

 

[slowlane]

I posted this topic on Jan 18 / 2011 , "Chemical overcharge protection" ( same battery technology forum ). Didn't think the term redox would mean anything to ES members . I

Its about fire proofing Lipo & other chemistry's . Also higher voltage , charge & discharge rates .

Big implications for current cell manufacturing formulas .

Another topic that needs addressing is the manufacturing cost of the chemical formulas going into existing cells . Stay away from cobalt and the rest are all "a few" dollars per pound .

Why are we willing to pay $25 to $50 per pound of cells ???

Think the cell resellers will help on locating "who" , so we can howl rip-off to the right corporations ?

 

[oldpiper]

I posted this topic on Jan 18 / 2011 , "Chemical overcharge protection" ( same battery technology forum ). Didn't think the term redox would mean anything to ES members .

Don't sell us short! There are many here who know redox, some who teach it.

Another topic that needs addressing is the manufacturing cost of the chemical formulas going into existing cells . Stay away from cobalt and the rest are all "a few" dollars per pound .

Why are we willing to pay $25 to $50 per pound of cells ???

Think the cell resellers will help on locating "who" , so we can howl rip-off to the right corporations ?

The biggest cost in new cells now is not the raw materials cost, but the nanotechnology manufacturing to make particles just a few atoms long/wide/etc. with exactly the right chemistry to do marvelous things. You can get pounds of carbon soot (and pretty pure carbon) for almost nothing, but to get a pound of well-characterized, consistent double-walled carbon nanotubes will cost you an arm and a leg.

The cost of these "exotic" materials will go down, but first we have to learn how to make them in large batches (more than a gram) reproducibly.

Cameron

 

[slowlane]

Good point oldpiper . Do you work in cell manufacture industries ? Do you support 30 times cost for a manufactured particle ? Point is battery cost...what side of the fence are you on ?

I thought the particle size was in the microns ? If I recall correctly its a surface layer , how many cells per gram of tubes ?

 

[oldpiper]

Good point oldpiper . Do you work in cell manufacture industries ?

Nope, I'm a college chemistry professor. Some of my research involves nanoscale work, although it's not in the battery field.

Do you support 30 times cost for a manufactured particle ? Point is battery cost...what side of the fence are you on ?

I don't think you've been listening. The manufacturing cost is way up there, compared to just melting a couple of metal ingots and mixing them into an alloy, like the old stuff. It's still more of an art than a science, as least as I see it.

I thought the particle size was in the microns ? If I recall correctly its a surface layer , how many cells per gram of tubes ?

The surface is extremely important, but we're finding out more all the time that down at that level (nanometers to micrometers) every aspect of the geometry is important, such as exactly what atoms are exposed at which nano-crystal face, how far apart do the particles have to be to keep from interfering with each other or maybe how close can you pack them and still have room for the molecules they interact with to find their active spots, just how small can you make things before electrons literally have to pass through a nanowire single-file and limit your current that way, at what scale are quantum effects predominant? Then, once you understand enough for your particular chemistry in the lab at the microscale, scaling up to industrial-size production is not a slam dunk, you can't just get bigger pots and expect it to work the same way.

Contrary to the popular opinion of the conspiracy theorists, not everything in the world is a rip-off.

Cameron

 

[slowlane]

Amazing what people like you and others accomplish . Thanks for your description . Complicated at the inventive level and laboratory scale . Has commercial process been demonstrated for the described chemistry ?

What does a gram cost ? What is the surface area per gram ?

Sorry you find conspiricy therorist in challenging cost of cells . Quite the spin .

Rip-off statement is my opinion .

I'm pensioned , its not commercial interest .

I do have commercial experience .

 

[slowlane]

Don't find my edit bottom for above post ."surface area" refers to the square area a gram of material will be applied .

 

[slowlane]

oldpiper : Is this your post on Jan 19 , 2011... " Li-ion, what is it?" ???

You claim professor of chemistry...quite the chemistry rant you authored .

LOL

Cameron , its clear you don't know any facts on cell manufacturing costs .

 

[oldpiper]

oldpiper : Is this your post on Jan 19 , 2011... " Li-ion, what is it?" ???

You claim professor of chemistry...quite the chemistry rant you authored .

LOL

Cameron , its clear you don't know any facts on cell manufacturing costs .

No, I know what a lithium ion is, and I do know what nanotechnology work entails, and I have worked for industry. If you read carefully, you'll see that I was asking about the generic use of "Li-ion battery" in advertisements, whether it was referring to a specific chemistry of cell or a generic cell (which it was). As we know here, each different kind of lithium ion cell has specific capabilities and maintenance requirements, especially if you're pushing them hard, as you would on an e-vehicle. My concern was whether it was possible to know which you would be getting without having to contact the manufacturer (as the vendor, particularly some of them on eBay, may not even know, or may just give you a stock answer, whether it's right or wrong). OK?

I do not know how much it costs to make a particular battery, and you would not be able to say that it costs so many "dollars per gram" or "dollars per square meter of surface area" of any particular electrode formulation or even if those two figures mattered at all unless you knew what was going on microscopically in a specific cell construction, using a specific process. One thing I do know, however, is if a new cell does not compete in cost, or does not blow the competition away in performance issues that really matter, it won't see the light of day. Micro-improvements, unless the potential is there for easily-realized and dramatic cost or performance gains, just don't cut it.

Conspiracy theorist is my knee-jerk reaction to people who start screaming "rip-off" when something seems expensive to them and they cannot find a cheap alternative. After all,

Think the cell resellers will help on locating "who" , so we can howl rip-off to the right corporations ?

you were looking for a whistleblower.

Cameron

 

[slowlane]

Cameron , From your posts I also see good works . All so easy to put a fellow members quest down .

Manufacturing cost is not the price of products sold to battery assemblers . Do you have any science based facts to contribute on your claim of high manufacture cost ?

What's your take on the battery manufacturing being created around the Redox Shunt patent ?

If you are in fact a card carrying member of the chemistry societies can you help this commoner with accessing specific papers in the journals ?

 

[TylerDurden]

Processes are likely to be trade secret, as they are often developed by the mfrs.

Folks may want to chase the trail, but I'm too lazy.

http://www.nanotech-now.com/news.cgi?story_id=38747

 

[slowlane]

US Patent 7338734 is about commercial scale manufacturing of the nano-particles used in current lithium cells . As you can see they are made in a ball mill with atmosphere control equipment .

There is research on nano tube application for batteries . Currently its PARTICLES not TUBES .

Beware those professing superior knowledge , but refusing to back their opinions with peer reviewed facts .

Whistleblowers ??? Do you have control issues ? Have you been down the rabbit hole with Alice ?

Distractions of cell cost study...have not got to the topic posting yet , but gathering facts .

Some old reference that still applies...but that's my opinion :
Pink Floyd / The Wall : Tracks "Wish you were here" ...also "Teacher" . Ask your students to review this topic .

Was not long ago than I asked "what is lithium-ion " also , I'm still running lead . Based on fact sources CELL price is a rip-off , as I will demonstrate in a new topic...likely in Business heading .

Should the forum not want this them dim my computer soonest...also change my slowlane handle to "dimwatt"...

 

[oldpiper]

Cameron , From your posts I also see good works . All so easy to put a fellow members quest down .

Manufacturing cost is not the price of products sold to battery assemblers . Do you have any science based facts to contribute on your claim of high manufacture cost ?

What's your take on the battery manufacturing being created around the Redox Shunt patent ?

If you are in fact a card carrying member of the chemistry societies can you help this commoner with accessing specific papers in the journals ?

Hi, slowlane,

Took a bit to get back to this thread, because it takes a bit more thought/research than my usual replies. A truce sounds like a good idea.

As for "science based facts" about nanotech manufacture, I only have my experiences and those of others I know (and I know many people who are way more knowledgeable and high-powered in this subject than me) to support my opinions. One thing you learn very quickly is that articles about a process lay it out like anyone could do it in their garage, but that's almost never true, it just sounds so simple because the authors are good at explaining it (otherwise, it wouldn't get published).

Redox shunts, this sounds like very good work (yes, I did read the patent), but I would expect it to, from its source. I think we might hope to see something come from it in two or three years or so, maybe sooner if some company decided to put it on their Number One Priority list and devote mucho bucks and manpower to it - a big company, not a small startup. One thing that may not be apparent on a first reading is that the authors were working with low concentrations of their add-ins and low capacity systems. It is not necessarily trivial at all to scale those up to the currents we talk about here, there are a lot of variables involved.

Yes, I am a card-carrying member of the American Chemical Society (actually, I just keep the card in my desk drawer), and have access to a bunch of journals. If there ever is an article you want, just PM me, and I'll see what I can do.

Cameron

 

[TylerDurden]

One thing you learn very quickly is that articles about a process lay it out like anyone could do it in their garage, but that's almost never true, it just sounds so simple because the authors are good at explaining it (otherwise, it wouldn't get published).

Indeed... moreover, a "good" patent is written to cover the widest swath, whilst disclosing only the narrowest.

 

[slowlane]

Cameron : You continue with false info...you did not read the patent or you recognize the GM owned patent is not 2-3 years down the road .
I returned to the topic as I have a draft ready directed to you . Them we can discuss truce .

 

[oldpiper]

Cameron : You continue with false info...you did not read the patent or you recognize the GM owned patent is not 2-3 years down the road .
I returned to the topic as I have a draft ready directed to you . Them we can discuss truce .

This is what I read, earlier in this thread:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7851092.html

Cameron

 

[TylerDurden]

solwlane:

What bearing does 7338734 have to manufacture of redox shuttle additive?

 

[slowlane]

oldpiper : quit evading the accusation and deal truth .

 

[oldpiper]

oldpiper : quit evading the accusation and deal truth .

Forget it. I have no idea what you're talking about. I also don't visit ES to get into an argument, there are plenty of chances to do that in the real world. I come here to learn from others and try to help when I can. Goodbye.

 

[slowlane]

Tyler : Sorry about this mess . This is the end right now , he's posted his response . Compare the link he says he followed to the patent link I posted , non-stop BS from this guy , USPatent database turns inti freepatent . The record is in the forum .

I just wrote you a reply and back-button key disappeared it...hope it don't show up twice .

Us Patent 7851092 stops thermal runaway caused by cycling in lithium type batteries . Two of the important LiCo chemistry's are easily triggered , 200C and I think it was 265-285C in the other . This is internal chemistry not an external BMS component .

A safe LiPo weight and energy is exciting to me . So is less wiring & failures .

US Patent 7338734 is commercial manufacturing of current lithium battery ingredients , in use for several years ( might be 10 as patents can be well behind production ) . A reference for Cameron on his error . There are no nano tubes in lithium batteries as he already knew from a previous post , let alone professor of chemistry knowledge . My reference of " down the rabbit with Alice" is response to his statement on expensive cost of batteries " line up the li-ions so they go thru the nano-tube single file"...it doesn't exist in the commercial battery world .

I would like to end this " Rabbit Hat " misadventure , its distracting what keeps popping out of it .

 

[TylerDurden]

No need for anyone to apologize to me, it's oldpiper who deserves one.

The accusatory and combative of tone of slowlane's posts have simply derailed what might have otherwise been an informative discussion of new chemistry.

If someone would care to discuss the cost structure of secondary-cell production, including licensing, R&D and startup costs, feel free to do so in another thread.

 

[slowlane]

This all starts with Cameron's third setence in his first post . There is no nano tubes in lithium batteries . It is not atomic particles , its a particle 100 nm , about 4 thousands of an inch .

You are also aware of this fact back on Dec 26/10 . Texaspyro called nanotube or graphine " modern technosnakeoil buzzwards " . You posted immediate below . The next day Texaspyro agian posts " not nanotubes " .

But your a professor of chemistry , beyond question . You should know better .I call this disinformation .

You did not like my posting and / or position on cheaper batteries and you went at this with false info .

Moderator , if you are present I have made a paper copy of this posting and entire thread . I would like to see the truth posted here . Thank you .

 

[TylerDurden]

This all starts with Cameron's third setence in his first post . There is no nano tubes in lithium batteries . It is not atomic particles , its a particle 100 nm , about 4 thousands of an inch .

You are also aware of this fact back on Dec 26/10 . Texaspyro called nanotube or graphine " modern technosnakeoil buzzwards " . You posted immediate below . The next day Texaspyro agian posts " not nanotubes " .

But your a professor of chemistry , beyond question . You should know better .I call this disinformation .

You did not like my posting and / or position on cheaper batteries and you went at this with false info .

Moderator , if you are present I have made a paper copy of this posting and entire thread . I would like to see the truth posted here . Thank you .

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[slowlane]

I have a posting missing , was posted the same minute as my 9:39 am posting today . It says about the same as my later version at 4:56 pm . I stated this in my 9:39 posting . Missing reply is not good , its an error .

By using my keyboard ENTER key instead of SUBMIT button below , would that account for the missing posting ?

 

[gestalt]