Roller bearings vs Ball in outrunner

Bluefang

10 kW
Joined
Aug 27, 2010
Messages
589
Location
Australia, Goldcoast
Would there be much of a problem with using roller or even needle bearings in atleast one side of a hub motor mounted to perform mid drive? Idealy i would like to use rollers on both sides of the motor as from what farfle has had to do with his motor and how the chain side bearing on the motor in my old green monster bike is failing the ball bearings seem to be failing under load. Changing both sides would have a negative impact on locating the magnet ring over the coils as it would be able to move abit, hence why ball bearings are usually used. Can anyone think of a easy way to locate the magnet ring so it cannot move or should i stick to having atleast one ball bearing on each side of the motor? Would it be worth it to try and install a tappered roller bearing with a circlip holding the races in place on the shaft?

Most of the reason to go roller is to allow water cooling of the motor and still allow easy exit for the internal wires with out having to majorly modefy the end plates for the hub. Currently the shaft is 25mm with 47mm bearing socket, i am trying to change it to 35x47.
 
The best info I could find with a comparison showed roller bearings having just over double the friction of ball bearings, but handle higher loads. Based on the info Toolman2 has shared just the lubrication of the bearings can make a lot more difference than that.

I love the idea for offering a means to both beef up and axle and/or bring larger wiring out of the motor. I also like the concept of liquid cooling, but without the motor being made specifically for liquid cooling, there are good reasons no one has pulled it off successfully. The reasons I see are:

-The much lower temperature differentials involved compared to ICE's.
-The difficulty in getting a short thermal pathway from the sources of heat to the cooling fluid.
-The far lower temperature limits of the components inside our electric motors.

It's nothing like cooling an ICE where cooling liquid passes close to a multi thousand degree heat source with only metal between the source and the cooling liquid to relatively quickly transfer heat away at ambient. It's also nothing like liquid cooling a PC with fractions of 1kw of heat to reject and a relatively large amount of liquid, because to even consider it you're looking at quite a few multi-kw of heat to reject at similar temp limits.

The exception would be having the cooling liquid freely flowing over the stator and piping it out to a radiator. Get the halls or other timing moved outside the motor and figure out how to prevent leaks and count me in. One is beyond my ability and the other nobody has solved despite quite a few attempts with no pipes or radiator.

Everyone seems to forget that no matter what method you use you're still dissipating the heat to the outside air. That last step of heat transfer is based on the surface area, the temperature differential, and the coefficient of convective heat transfer (a quite complex number based on many factors but a good turbulent flow inside our motors can maximize it, though only reasonable guesstimates could reasonably made without lots of testing).

Our motors have quite a bit of surface area at or near the heat source, and it's relatively easy to flow significant ambient air through the motor. With a mid-drive arrangement it's also relatively easy to both protect the motor from ingesting problematic gunk, and increase flow at the same time with a weight and space penalty far less than a much less effective liquid cooling system. Have you seen the numbers Toolman2 has posted WRT the leaf blower fan he's used?

Figure out a way to flow the cooling liquid directly over the stator without problems and I say go for it. Otherwise unless the motor is designed specifically for liquid cooling, so you just have to do some piping and pumping to the radiator, then forced air cooling is sure to prove both easier and more effective. All the heat goes to the environment anyway, so just short cut it all and bring the environment into the motor to dissipate the heat directly at the maximum temperature differential possible.

John
 
Well this would be for a prototype motor/controller combo running Lebowskis controller with sensorless load start once he has it running. Untill then if i manage to get everything working it would be my bike that may need push starting from a stop :)

So yes, all the halls will be removed from the motor, the water will be pumped into the motor thru the original wire inlet with a added hole at 90 degrees, and then out thru a hole bored on the other side of the shaft. All the holes in the stator will be blocked forcing the water to flow directly over the coils. One thing i will have to test is at what temperature does the coil insulation start to go soft. Depending on how high quality it is and if it follows with the rest of the motor then i would think temps of up to 150-200 at the windings will not be a problem.

Water cooling does not need that much of a temperature differential to make a huge difference. Interms of leaks, thats the easy part assuming you can seal the wires up well enough and have them exiting the motor via individualy drilled holes and have them sealed properly. Leaking around the bearing/shaft will be taken care of by a high pressure oil seal which will work just as well for water. With a open loop system the pressure build up should be next to nothing which will hopefully remove anychance of leaks. I will be attempting to also run it under pressure to see if i leaks as that would be much better for cooling purposes.
 
If the rotor is aligned with the stator, the magnetic force will tend to keep it centered so there should not be a lot of axial thrust on the bearings.
 
At the moment i am thinking of having a roller bearing under the drive side of the motor and also having the 6 phase wires feed out from that side. That leaves the other side to have just a normal bearing and oil seal setup with the main load bearing side having the roller bearing for a much longer service life. Should keep the phase wires short enough and also allow me to bring the actual motor wires out of the hub so i have less to worry about with water proofing a solder joint inside the motor.

All ideas as i have yet to buy another motor to play with ;)
 
I don't understand why you need rollers over ballraces, but do you realise you can get taper rollers if you need to control axial loads?
 
Tapered rollers take up more space so I am avoiding them if I can. The reason I want to try rollers as they will take alot more abuse then basic ball bearings

The other reason is I would like to try water cooling in a senserless motor. Still trying to figure out what effect all the electrical/magnet fields will have on water.
 
I can't profess to be an expert on the subject, but realistically what sort of loads are you expecting to to be on the shaft bearings of an outrunner? They seem sturdy enough for use in automotive gearboxes, wheel bearigns etc :)

AFAIK Rollers are less efficient than balls and less suited to high speeds. You can also get angular contact ballraces for axial loads.
 
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