Seeking spoke washers for 14ga spokes through 13ga hole

[bowlofsalad]

Hello,

I've read several times that an ideal spoke to go with for spokes on an ebike hub is 14/15ga butted. What I am working on is 14ga straight spokes, but the holes on the hubs are for 13 ga, the heads sit deep in the holes. Is this an issue or do I need to buy washers? If washers are recommended, where could I buy them? I haven't been able to find a source myself.

Thanks

 

[Drunkskunk]

If you are doing a conventional 1 Cross lace pattern, then the way the spokes cross behind each other will naturaly push the head out away from the hub. This is normal. The head is the weakest part of a spoke, and should never have much tension on it anyways, making spokehead washers totaly unnecessary.

But if you are doing some unconventional spoke pattern, like an all inside radial lace, the washer might help.

I think Brass Spoke head washers on an all black motor would look pretty bad a$$. Use some black spokes and Brass nipples too. maybe even replace the cover bolts with brass.

Long ago I used them often, but I haven't in more than a decade, with no ill effects.

 

[-dg]

I've read several times that an ideal spoke to go with for spokes on an ebike hub is 14/15ga butted. What I am working on is 14ga straight spokes, but the holes on the hubs are for 13 ga, the heads sit deep in the holes. Is this an issue or do I need to buy washers? If washers are recommended, where could I buy them? I haven't been able to find a source myself.

You likely don't need them. I got these from Amazon and while they would work, I decided for the Bafang hubs that they were not needed.

 

[bowlofsalad]

Awesome, thanks for the responses drunkskunk and -dg.

So they aren't necessary, but they wouldn't hurt. Seems like reason enough to use them at 2.23 per 100. I guess I'll order a couple of bags. I don't know if there are any better or more ideal washers for this application, but maybe these will do. How do you tell if spoke washers aren't necessary?

The hub is a 9c clone from em3ev.

 

[-dg]

Awesome, thanks for the responses drunkskunk and -dg.

So they aren't necessary, but they wouldn't hurt. Seems like reason enough to use them at 2.23 per 100. I guess I'll order a couple of bags. I don't know if there are any better or more ideal washers for this application, but maybe these will do. How do you tell if spoke washers aren't necessary?

The hub is a 9c clone from em3ev.

Put a spoke in the hub with and without the washer and see which fits better. Remember to set the washer (there is a video about setting spoke washers, but basically you tap the spoke head with a hammer and drift to conform the washer into the hole. On the Bafang hub it was a wash so I went without. The issue is the hole diameter and the thickness of the flange and how it matches the elbow of the spoke.

 

[Supertux1]

Hello,

I've read several times that an ideal spoke to go with for spokes on an ebike hub is 14/15ga butted. What I am working on is 14ga straight spokes, but the holes on the hubs are for 13 ga, the heads sit deep in the holes. Is this an issue or do I need to buy washers? If washers are recommended, where could I buy them? I haven't been able to find a source myself.

Thanks

I've replaced the spokes on an ebike hub with these ones, no washers required. Don't let the mm confuse you, it's 13 gauge at the flange end tapering to 14 gauge at the nipple end. Perfect for hub motors.

http://www.wheelbuilder.com/sapim-strong-single-butted-spoke.html

 

[bowlofsalad]

Thanks a bunch for sharing this -dg. I am guessing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCZm3-dcOq0 this is the video. I might not have ever thought of this on my own. Great video, thanks.

I've replaced the spokes on an ebike hub with these ones, no washers required. Don't let the mm confuse you, it's 13 gauge at the flange end tapering to 14 gauge at the nipple end. Perfect for hub motors.

http://www.wheelbuilder.com/sapim-strong-single-butted-spoke.html

I've got the spokes and such cut and such ready to go, so I think I'll just stick with them and try them out, if they start to break maybe I'll try these. Some folks here argue that thinner is better, 14/15 butted spokes, others argue that thicker has to be used at times. I don't know if I can be certain as to which situation merits either camps value. Thanks.

 

[Supertux1]

Thanks a bunch for sharing this -dg. I am guessing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCZm3-dcOq0 this is the video. I might not have ever thought of this on my own. Great video, thanks.

I've replaced the spokes on an ebike hub with these ones, no washers required. Don't let the mm confuse you, it's 13 gauge at the flange end tapering to 14 gauge at the nipple end. Perfect for hub motors.

http://www.wheelbuilder.com/sapim-strong-single-butted-spoke.html

I've got the spokes and such cut and such ready to go, so I think I'll just stick with them and try them out, if they start to break maybe I'll try these. Some folks here argue that thinner is better, 14/15 butted spokes, others argue that thicker has to be used at times. I don't know if I can be certain as to which situation merits either camps value. Thanks.

I think thinner is better because it allows the spoke to have the proper tension.
It is hard to tune/true the cheapo chinese 12/13 gauge ones that come with typical hub motors, plus finding replacements for them is a PITA.

The issue with the 14/15 butted ones is the flange end pulling through the holes on the hub when they are tightened and put under stress. (Which is why you want washers I guess.)
If you put washers under them then it pulls the elbow of the spoke closer to the hub on the other side which could be good or bad depending on the initial fit.
Most hubs (both electric and standard) have a bevel around the edge of the flange holes for the elbow to settle into. (Most people think it is for the head of the spoke, but it is not.)

If they don't pop out when you are truing the wheel then it will probably work out.

 

[bowlofsalad]

I am ending up using these spoke washers, thanks again for sharing -dg. I think they were already looking like they were on edge of pulling through before truing.

 

[-dg]

I am ending up using these spoke washers, thanks again for sharing -dg. I think they were already looking like they were on edge of pulling through before truing.

Happy to help, let us know how it worked out longer term.

 

[bowlofsalad]

I am ending up using these spoke washers, thanks again for sharing -dg. I think they were already looking like they were on edge of pulling through before truing.

Happy to help, let us know how it worked out longer term.

Right on, I'll do that, to what intervals do you recommend for updating, 1000 miles? 10,000 miles?

 

[bowlofsalad]

This is what the spoke head looks like with the washer in place.

 

[-dg]

This is what the spoke head looks like with the washer in place.

Very nice.

I can't tell from your photo, but did you lace all your spokes inbound instead of alternating?

 

[bowlofsalad]

They are all definitely facing one direction, non drive side. Is that bad?

The lacing is 1-cross.

 

[bowlofsalad]

I called some bicycle shops and did some searching online. It sounds like a bad thing. It seems this adds a lot of added stress to the spokes. Maybe this is a different story on ebike hubs, but I imagine it to be far worse on ebike hubs than on a regular hub rim combo.

 

[amberwolf]

Sometimes there's no choice about which wya the heads face in hubmotor flanges, becuase of dishing and becuase the flanges are so close together. AFAIK, it's normally preferable to alternate them, so that the spoke that crosses the inside of the X comes out of the hub flange on the outside. But even that is a debated thing, by various wheelbuilders, so you'd have to find out empirically which one works better for your situation.

You can literally read for weeks or months all the wheelbuilding stuff just available on the web. Then you can read even more that's only on paper, in bike mechanic books. Some of it will contradict other stuff, even in the same applications, so you have to decide for yourself which way to follow.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Its not a "bad thing", its just not the ideal. But if you are trying to correct an offset problem and center a wheel, or just want it for cosmetic reasons, then its perfectly acceptable.

 

[bowlofsalad]

Man-o-man, everything seems to be this way. 50 experts and they all have a different opinion on what the right way to do something is.

There are two issues here for setting things up. My wheel is very off center, I am trying to choose between off center dishing or using washers on the axle. And reliable spokes, I don't want any spokes. My head is spinning a little with all the options on creating a solution to these problems. Part of why I need the wheel centered is because I've been using a 1.5" wide tire, I think a 1.75" tire would create a much softer ride, but I cannot fit it unless the tire is pretty centered.

I am worried about the dishing aspect as my battery (with rack and everything else weighs around 30lbs) sits directly above the wheel. I am concerned that without getting these things set up well, my goal is to make things as reliable as possible and I fear I'll end up with more broken spokes. I don't know what the most reliable option is yet, but it's starting to sound like I need a new bike with much more space for the tire.

 

[Ykick]

I know 1-5"-1.75" is not much improvement. 2.125-2.5" range urban tire and you'll feel dramatic difference but as you're finding out, easier said than done.

I've got some seriously dished wheels with good spokes and rims running in the wilderness - they're doing fine. Latest dished wheel build I used 2mm different length spokes on one side along with observing offset position via spoke hole flange to better center the rim to the frame.

We do what we gotta do and even when not ideal, it's not as if catastrophic wheel failure from severe dishing is a common occurence.

 

[bowlofsalad]

I would love to fit a 2.5"+ wide tire. I put a 2" tire on the rim, inflated the inner tube and placed it in the space without the axles in the dropouts or at least tightened. The space itself looks to be about exactly 2" measured so it looked like the tire may have fit, just barely. I am afraid that even if I somehow managed to get the wheel perfectly centered and it didn't rub the frame, a semi hard bump might bring the rim over slightly, causing a severe rub. So it's 1.75-1.95 tops for this frame.

I think in the future, when I make a bicycle frame, I am going to make the chainstays as far apart as the drop outs or close to that, zero limitations on tire width and nothing to worry about for dish and such.

I've not really considered relacing with shorter spokes on one side, but it's an option.

I don't know how far over a 7mm thick washer would make the tire sit, but I keep imagining a 7mm washer would move the tire over less than 7mm.

 

[-dg]

Man-o-man, everything seems to be this way. 50 experts and they all have a different opinion on what the right way to do something is.

There are two issues here for setting things up. My wheel is very off center, I am trying to choose between off center dishing or using washers on the axle.

Same as everything. Just listen to me, ignore all the others

Seriously, it is OK to have the spokes all head one way, its done all the time for one reason or another. It is better to alternate them so that they have to bend around each other (go look at a normal bike wheel) where they cross, but I would not change it if you have already tightened the spokes. I probably would if I had just put them in and but they were still loose, but that's because I'm a perfectionist and it pleases me to do stuff like that. It's not strictly necessary.

As for dish. It is very important to center the tire in the bike. It will handle funny if you don't.

It is not hard to do, all derailleur bicycles have dished rear wheels. All it takes is to tighten the spokes more on the side that the rim needs to move toward and loosen on the other side. It take only a few turns of the nipple to move the rim. If you can use spacers/washers to move the hub in the frame that will reduce the amount of dish needed, which is good, so do that first, but don't go crazy bending the frame to take more spacers or anything.

To add dish, just go around the wheel the wheel a few times doing one turn of the nipples each time, tightening spokes on the tight side of the dish and loosening the other. The rim will move toward the tight side. If you think of of it in advance and need a lot of dish it is common to order shorter spokes for the flat side, but the difference is never more than 2mm, so don't worry about it, it will work fine either way. If your spokes were on the long side to start, you may have to grind the ends just a little if they stick up too far out of the nipples when you are done.

To check if you have the dish right, put the wheel in a truing stand (a bike makes an ok truing stand) and check the clearance from the rim to the stand/frame, the take the wheel out, flip it over, and put it in and check again. If the clearance is the same, you are good to go. A mm or even two of difference is fine, but less is better. It is best to start with a straight wheel when checking or it will be hard to measure dish accurately.

Also, do yourself a favor and read the late great Sheldon Browns wheel building page if you have not already. This is authoritative, if someone tells you differently than Sheldon you will want a complete explanation before believing them. If you don't read the whole thing, at least read about stress relieving. Stress reliving is not hard, just a little scary the first time, but makes a big difference in reliability of the wheel.

 

[-dg]

I think in the future, when I make a bicycle frame, I am going to make the chainstays as far apart as the drop outs or close to that, zero limitations on tire width and nothing to worry about for dish and such.

Go look at some bikes and turn the cranks and watch where the chainrings and crankarms clear the chainstay. That area is really crowded. You can't move the pedals and cranks outboard without screwing the riders hips and knees, and chainstays are highly stressed so you can't make the tubes too skinny.

 

[Supertux1]

You'll find that the way they do spokes with the heads all one way on each flange side helps with the dishing, pushing it in the correct direction by the with of your flange, about 2mm.

You don't need a fancy $200 dishing tool either.

1. Take three or more tallboys of your favorite beer, put them on a big table, drink them.
2. Then arrange cans (empty) so that you can set your wheel on top of them such that your rim is supported all around by cans.
3. Then look to see how far the end of the axle sits above the table. The point you want to look at is where the threading on the axel ends, ie where your dropouts begin.
4. Stack a bunch of coins up next to the axle to get a precise measurement.
5. Flip the wheel over and verify how many coins you are off.
6. Tighten the spokes on one side so the number of coins that stack up to where the threaded axle portion ends is equal on both sides.
7. Rinse and Repeat Steps 4-7.
8. Congratulations, your wheel is now dished and so are you.

Try not to have your row of rim holes directly above the drive side flange with zero angle, ie dropping straight down. That weakens the wheel. Try to have a little angle even if it means an imperfect dish.

 

[Drunkskunk]

You'll find that the way they do spokes with the heads all one way on each flange side helps with the dishing, pushing it in the correct direction by the with of your flange, about 2mm.

You don't need a fancy $200 dishing tool either.

1. Take three or more tallboys of your favorite beer, put them on a big table, drink them.
... .

I can support any plan that involves drinking beer in step one!

 

[bowlofsalad]

Thanks for the advice and input guys. I made some washers with a drill press and some files, the 3/8th thickness wasn't a bunch of fun. With a lot of pulling, I got the dropouts apart enough to slip the wheel in place, it looked good and centered, but it was very difficult to get the wheel in. I realized then that I would have to do something like use a scissoring car jack to spread the dropouts further apart so they would stay like that permanently. However, after spending some time thinking about this, even though the bicycle frame is made out of steel, I don't think this is a wise course of action. My bike has suspension and is placed in such a way that makes them seem very risky.

So I'll be trying to do some off center dishing. I may actually try and just do the dishing with the wheel on the frame. I don't know if that is a bad idea or not, but putting the wheel on and off the bike is a bit difficult.

If I do end up having to take the wheel off the bike to dish it, would a vice and a bunch of blocks of wood from 2x4s in addition to the coins be suitable? I imagine needing a pretty immense number of coins to make this happen and I could probably use blocks of wood to take up most of the space. I am guessing the vice would be suitable, but I have some empty bottles of wine on hand that would probably be suitable for replacing these glass beer bottles mentioned.