Lessss
1 MW
I can turn off the power supply to the shed from the house. 
Christmas tree timers work. I've seen power strips that have built in timers.
Christmas tree timers work. I've seen power strips that have built in timers.
SLA batteries bloating up - damaged ?
- Thread starter dragonfire
- Start date
dragonfire
100 W
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2009
- Messages
- 112
GTA1 said:
as each batterie will see up to 30 amps peak draws in "turbo" mode ( vs the 2econo"-mode) the cheaper packs will be smacked by peukert full force and be deplated and hot in like 2-3 minutes.
i got the oppertunity to make a "depletion run" this morning ( i factually got up 30 minutes earlier than i had to regularly) and got 5.5 miles in econo mode at like 7 mph average cruising speed ( sidewalk)out of it.
now it sits on the charger, chargin all 4 batteries ( in eyesight with the battery pan upopened). this evening i am going to disconnect the two bloated cells, "top off" the supposedly good batteries and onyl use these both ( one bank only) for the ecaxt same route back. there may be altitude changings, but i suppose the range should be roundabout similar if the bloated cells are really bad ( and if my nonbloated SLA´s are still decent, this ould equal like 90+ percent of range claimed by the manufacturer for new ones).
i´ll keep this thread entertained with the result
.dragonfire
100 W
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2009
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- 112
as i took the bloated cells of the battery case today i used the oppertunity to check all 4 timestamps of each abtterie.
3 where of july 2007, one was of august 2007...the stamp on the controller said september, so it can be safely assumed the manufacturer used non-matching ells that have allready been sitting some months.
the 2 bad blocks actually melt together at 2 approx 1 x 5 cm spots at the side, obviously the balancing of that pack ( 2 x 12 volts batterie shorted together for 24 volts) ids not working good on sla´s of different batches.
the august 07 cell is also the one compleely bloated, the bloating went from there to the second batterie -
the other bank/ pack of 2 still works as should.
3 where of july 2007, one was of august 2007...the stamp on the controller said september, so it can be safely assumed the manufacturer used non-matching ells that have allready been sitting some months.
the 2 bad blocks actually melt together at 2 approx 1 x 5 cm spots at the side, obviously the balancing of that pack ( 2 x 12 volts batterie shorted together for 24 volts) ids not working good on sla´s of different batches.
the august 07 cell is also the one compleely bloated, the bloating went from there to the second batterie -
the other bank/ pack of 2 still works as should.
heathyoung
100 kW
Yep - as the cells age (especially with different batches etc) you will find that the charging voltage across one of the 12V batts will be lower, and the other higher. They are toast. (cue fried guineapig photo) 
dragonfire
100 W
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2009
- Messages
- 112
si i stumbled over a good explanaition on topic:
VLRA. ( Valve Regulated Lead Acid) This is a good battery construction type because it offers low maintenance and high current loads for starting scooters. Plus they are light in weight and never need re-filling, or leak acid in your Scooter. They also hold a full charge a lot longer then other construction types when stored in the fully charged state.
All that is good, but they have a couple things about them an owner cannot ignore and refuse to do to get them to last a long, long time, which they will with just a little maintenance attention. To get long life and performance you must:
1. Charge them fully when first placed in service.
2. Take the battery out and read the open terminal voltage every 90 days minimum, and then re-charge the battery to a full charge state if necessary.
3. When placing in storage for the winter, remove the battery, fully charge it, and put it away to re-install in the Spring.
4. NEVER jumper the Scooter battery with an Auto Battery to start it! Do a manual kick start instead! If you make this mistake you will damage the VLRA scooter battery permanently, even if you were successful with the jumper start.
5. NEVER charge a VLRA Sealed Lead-Acid battery with an automotive battery charger of any kind! That includes the ones with a 2.0AMP trickle charge setting. If you do, you will permanently damage your scooter battery! You might think you got a way with it, but while you may have partially charged it enough to work a few days, you have ruined the battery. Next time you try that your battery will fail!
You might wonder why these things/rules are true? It all backs up to the VLRA construction method to make light-weight and small battery. To make this tiny high current delivery battery using VLRA construction it has to have many more electrode plates than conventional lead-acid types do internally. Not only that, but these plates must be spaced very close together physically. VLRA batteries also also constructed with advanced lead calcium technology, and include sulfphation retardants.
While all that does make for a powerful little battery, it also greatly restricts the amount of charging current you can use to charge it! It does means it will take a long time to fully charge a battery of this type at the low charge current rate allowed. VLRA batteries must only be charged with a battery charger capable of delivering from just .3 to .5 DC AMPS, or 300 to 500 Milliampers. NO MORE, or you will melt or warp the internal plates, thus shorting them and destroying the ability of the battery to deliver current. That is why so many are destroyed by automotive battery chargers which can deliver anywhere from 2.o to 60 AMPS!
If you are a scooter owner you really should acquire a cheap volt-ohm meter so you can read the open battery terminal voltage of your battery. That voltage reading tells you the charge state of your battery. You also need a low-current battery charger. Typically they can be found a most serious scooter shops, and online.
They are the wall transformer plug in type, with battery clip-on leads. Always check the specification of any charger you are considering acquiring to be sure it is truly a low current type. It needs to only be capable of a charge rate of .5 DC AMPS at 12.8 volts. A .3 AMP charge rate is just fine, but more than .5 AMP is not!
Here is some charging information based on your open terminal DC Voltage readings:
State of Charge
100% - Reads 12.8 to 13.0 Volts - No action needed.
75% to 100% - Reads 12.5 to 12.8 Volts - May need slight charge - 3 to 6 hours.
50% to 75% - Reads 12.0 to 12.5 Volts - Needs Charge -5 to 11 hours.
25% to 50% - Reads 11.5 to 12.0 Volts - Needs Charge - At least for 10 to 13 hours.
0% to 25% - Reads 11.5 Volts or less - Needs Charge - 20 hours - completely depleted.
A peculiar thing about reading battery charge voltage state after removing the charger is that
you will only get a true reading after you have removed the charger for 10 minutes. There is a time lag as the voltage stabilizes in a VLRA.
Whenever a new battery is filled with acid sealed it will need charging. The very act of adding the acid only brings the battery to a 75% charge state.
VLRA. ( Valve Regulated Lead Acid) This is a good battery construction type because it offers low maintenance and high current loads for starting scooters. Plus they are light in weight and never need re-filling, or leak acid in your Scooter. They also hold a full charge a lot longer then other construction types when stored in the fully charged state.
All that is good, but they have a couple things about them an owner cannot ignore and refuse to do to get them to last a long, long time, which they will with just a little maintenance attention. To get long life and performance you must:
1. Charge them fully when first placed in service.
2. Take the battery out and read the open terminal voltage every 90 days minimum, and then re-charge the battery to a full charge state if necessary.
3. When placing in storage for the winter, remove the battery, fully charge it, and put it away to re-install in the Spring.
4. NEVER jumper the Scooter battery with an Auto Battery to start it! Do a manual kick start instead! If you make this mistake you will damage the VLRA scooter battery permanently, even if you were successful with the jumper start.
5. NEVER charge a VLRA Sealed Lead-Acid battery with an automotive battery charger of any kind! That includes the ones with a 2.0AMP trickle charge setting. If you do, you will permanently damage your scooter battery! You might think you got a way with it, but while you may have partially charged it enough to work a few days, you have ruined the battery. Next time you try that your battery will fail!
You might wonder why these things/rules are true? It all backs up to the VLRA construction method to make light-weight and small battery. To make this tiny high current delivery battery using VLRA construction it has to have many more electrode plates than conventional lead-acid types do internally. Not only that, but these plates must be spaced very close together physically. VLRA batteries also also constructed with advanced lead calcium technology, and include sulfphation retardants.
While all that does make for a powerful little battery, it also greatly restricts the amount of charging current you can use to charge it! It does means it will take a long time to fully charge a battery of this type at the low charge current rate allowed. VLRA batteries must only be charged with a battery charger capable of delivering from just .3 to .5 DC AMPS, or 300 to 500 Milliampers. NO MORE, or you will melt or warp the internal plates, thus shorting them and destroying the ability of the battery to deliver current. That is why so many are destroyed by automotive battery chargers which can deliver anywhere from 2.o to 60 AMPS!
If you are a scooter owner you really should acquire a cheap volt-ohm meter so you can read the open battery terminal voltage of your battery. That voltage reading tells you the charge state of your battery. You also need a low-current battery charger. Typically they can be found a most serious scooter shops, and online.
They are the wall transformer plug in type, with battery clip-on leads. Always check the specification of any charger you are considering acquiring to be sure it is truly a low current type. It needs to only be capable of a charge rate of .5 DC AMPS at 12.8 volts. A .3 AMP charge rate is just fine, but more than .5 AMP is not!
Here is some charging information based on your open terminal DC Voltage readings:
State of Charge
100% - Reads 12.8 to 13.0 Volts - No action needed.
75% to 100% - Reads 12.5 to 12.8 Volts - May need slight charge - 3 to 6 hours.
50% to 75% - Reads 12.0 to 12.5 Volts - Needs Charge -5 to 11 hours.
25% to 50% - Reads 11.5 to 12.0 Volts - Needs Charge - At least for 10 to 13 hours.
0% to 25% - Reads 11.5 Volts or less - Needs Charge - 20 hours - completely depleted.
A peculiar thing about reading battery charge voltage state after removing the charger is that
you will only get a true reading after you have removed the charger for 10 minutes. There is a time lag as the voltage stabilizes in a VLRA.
Whenever a new battery is filled with acid sealed it will need charging. The very act of adding the acid only brings the battery to a 75% charge state.
Lock
100 MW
Nice one dragonfire. One caveat perhaps. The info sounds like it relates to batts designed for starting ICE machines (thinner plates) versus the deep discharge PBA we know and love/hate... *Hopefully* any decent batt mfgr will post these details on their web site with the numbers specific to their own make and models of batts, so look for this info also
tks
lloK
tks
lloK
dragonfire
100 W
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- Apr 14, 2009
- Messages
- 112
most batteries of the same type will use the same physical layout, slight differences through materials used and chemistry allow for higher current discharge ( better plates, for the most ?) and higher charging than spec´es ( chemistry for the most ?, alongside with plate´s thermal specs), seemingly these details are tendning to get unbalanced faster if paired together.
i hope to have the oppertunity to bandsaw-open the bloated cells some times in a safe environment and access to safe disposal, i´ll make sure to post pics as soon as this happens.
i hope to have the oppertunity to bandsaw-open the bloated cells some times in a safe environment and access to safe disposal, i´ll make sure to post pics as soon as this happens.
TylerDurden
100 GW
Advise not. Gelled acid will likely travel around the sawblade guides and rollers. Not so good for the saw.dragonfire said:
Maybe a sawzall with a long hacksaw blade would open them with a minimum of flung nastiness.
dragonfire
100 W
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2009
- Messages
- 112
if i can breathe a little of this gasses when opening it on a solid surface under the open sky it would be faster, i will visit a battery development center in dresden/ germany within the next weeks and was hoping to get innfo how to handle these exacly, my intent was to access a laboraty sink with shielding and superseize ventilation, if i can safely hold such cells with rubber gloves i will gladly use a cheap "manual" metal saw to get them opened.
i was assuming i could story opened cells in a plastic cup for some days, is this correct ?
i was assuming i could story opened cells in a plastic cup for some days, is this correct ?
Lessss
1 MW
There are automotive chargers and automotive chargers.
I use Cdn tire 12Vcharger that does 2 to 10 amps, I periodically (60days) top off the charge on each battery to ensure all are in balance. I've never seen the charger meter show more than 4 amps going to the battery. Anybody with half a brain should realize charging at 60Amps can boil a battery in short order.
I use Cdn tire 12Vcharger that does 2 to 10 amps, I periodically (60days) top off the charge on each battery to ensure all are in balance. I've never seen the charger meter show more than 4 amps going to the battery. Anybody with half a brain should realize charging at 60Amps can boil a battery in short order.
dragonfire
100 W
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2009
- Messages
- 112
so i found the reason why the batteries bloated up and died, it´s something that can hit the most SLA´s if being on the wrong charger so i thougt i´d elaborate that a little.
the common batteries with 6.3 mm connectors and 12 volts are used on standby in emergency devices, their actual charge hardly gets in excess to 12 volts per pack so some manufacturers even recommend to do a boost charge ocec or twice a year up to 14.5-7 watts per batterie - for not longer than 1-2 hours and with very small-c pulses only.
the maximum loading current of most 12v 9ah batteries is close to twice as high as on 12v 7 ah´s of the same physical seize, the 12v12ah that require a higher deck mount on an ESR goped can take not onyl more than 3 times the charge of 12v 7ah´s but also take more than 5 times the peak sicharge than the smaller ones.
most balancers don´t see this differences, same with the esr charge controller that charges the batteries all the way up to 15+ volts per batterie and does not trickle down at this level but keeps them at that rate as long as yu keep the charger plugged in.
So being aware to not let the scooter sit into trcikle charge too long but let it rest and do the additional balancing wire set up in between paralleled batterie banks do it´s work and simply "top off" the charge of the vehicle some minutes in before you ride.
the common batteries with 6.3 mm connectors and 12 volts are used on standby in emergency devices, their actual charge hardly gets in excess to 12 volts per pack so some manufacturers even recommend to do a boost charge ocec or twice a year up to 14.5-7 watts per batterie - for not longer than 1-2 hours and with very small-c pulses only.
the maximum loading current of most 12v 9ah batteries is close to twice as high as on 12v 7 ah´s of the same physical seize, the 12v12ah that require a higher deck mount on an ESR goped can take not onyl more than 3 times the charge of 12v 7ah´s but also take more than 5 times the peak sicharge than the smaller ones.
most balancers don´t see this differences, same with the esr charge controller that charges the batteries all the way up to 15+ volts per batterie and does not trickle down at this level but keeps them at that rate as long as yu keep the charger plugged in.
So being aware to not let the scooter sit into trcikle charge too long but let it rest and do the additional balancing wire set up in between paralleled batterie banks do it´s work and simply "top off" the charge of the vehicle some minutes in before you ride.
