SonyTo Enter EV Battery Market 2015-Replacing A123 in Tools?

[MitchJi]

Hi,

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/sony-to-enter-ev-battery-market/

Sony to Enter EV Battery Market
July 16, 2011
Sony already produces batteries for grid storage. Now they are eyeing cars.

The company that helped bring the lithium ion battery to life is expanding its wings.

Sony said this month that it will produce lithium ion batteries for electric vehicles and start selling them by the middle of the decade.

"Sony's batteries have an advantage of long life, and they do not have to be frequently replaced," the company said, according to Nikkei Electronics. "Therefore, they are suited for EVs. We want to enter the market by the mid-2010s."

Sony has already made a prototype and is now under negotiation with several automakers in and outside Japan. It aims to sell Li-ion batteries for use in not only EVs but also hybrid vehicles and plug-in hybrid vehicles. Rival Panasonic already produces batteries for Tesla Motors and Toyota.

The Japanese giant may be having trouble in its consumer division, but like Toshiba, Sharp, Panasonic and other conglomerates, the company still wields impressive hardware engineering divisions.

Sony rolled out the lithium ion battery for notebooks and consumer electronics back in the early 90s. Technically, it wasn't the first lithium ion battery, but it was the first commercial success and it set the standards for what followed. ExxonMobil actually produced the first lithium battery, way back in 1977. Exxon's battery relied on a different chemistry, but the oil giant lost interest in the project after oil prices plunged in the early 80s.

Last year, Sony showed us lithium phosphate battery packs it produces for grid storage at Ceatec, a large tech trade show outside of Tokyo. (See picture.) Lithium phosphates don't have the same energy density as lithium cobalt batteries, but are generally safer and last longer. Conventional lithium batteries might only endure 500 charge cycles. The lithium phosphates can endure 3,000 to 4,000 cycles, according to Masayuki Yasuda, senior general manager of the new business division at Sony Energy Devices. The battery pack was one of the finalists for a smart grid award at Ceatec. (Disclosure: I headed the award committee.)

“That’s maybe ten years,” he said. “They are improving in energy density but the important part is safety and longer cycle life.”

Some companies are producing lithium phosphates for the car market so these two applications might be based around similar cells.

Replacing A123 in is interesting (if true). Maybe Doc holding out on us on new Sony Cells ?:
http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/sony-goes-grid-with-lithium-phosphate-batteries/

Sony Goes Grid With Lithium Phosphate Batteries
October 6, 2010

Chiba, Japan -- Sony popularized lithium-ion batteries for notebooks and other devices with its lithium cobalt batteries in the early '90s. Now it wants to tackle the grid.

The company -- mostly known for household electronics and action movies -- is actively marketing a line of lithium phosphate batteries. Lithium phosphates hold 20 percent to 30 percent less energy than lithium cobalt batteries, but they come with two distinct advantages.

One, they are far safer and won’t result in a “runaway thermal reaction,” otherwise known as an explosion. Two, they can withstand far more charging cycles. Conventional lithium batteries might only endure 500 charge cycles. The lithium phosphates can endure 3,000 to 4,000 cycles, according to Masayuki Yasuda, senior general manager of the new business division at Sony Energy Devices during a meeting at Ceatec, a high-tech convention taking place outside of Tokyo.

“That’s maybe ten years,” he said. “They are improving in energy density but the important part is safety and longer cycle life.”

Sony came out with the batteries last year and is now marketing packs of them to utilities. The rack of modules you see in the picture can store 1.2 kilowatt hours.

Makita employs them in its power tools, he said. Sources have told us that Black and Decker, once a large customer of A123 Systems, swapped out A123’s lithium phosphate batteries for Sony’s in many power tools. Yasuda would not comment. A123’s SEC statements have shown that its business with Black and Decker has gone from 66 percent in 2007 to sliding below 14 percent.

 

[Hillhater]

I thought NMC was going to be the future of EV battery's ?? :?

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

I thought NMC was going to be the future of EV battery's ?? :?

Who or what is NMC?

 

[oatnet]

... Lithium phosphates hold 20 percent to 30 percent less energy than lithium cobalt batteries, but they come with two distinct advantages.

One, they are far safer and won’t result in a “runaway thermal reaction,” otherwise known as an explosion. Two, they can withstand far more charging cycles. Conventional lithium batteries might only endure 500 charge cycles. The lithium phosphates can endure 3,000 to 4,000 cycles, according to Masayuki Yasuda, senior general manager of the new business division at Sony Energy Devices...

That is the point I have been trying to press home... Nice to see that the Senior General Manager of a battery division holds the same perspective.

That giant rack only holds 1.2kwh? I have a123 packs that are 1kw but only 9" x 6" x 6"...

-JD

 

[liveforphysics]

Hi,

I thought NMC was going to be the future of EV battery's ?? :?

Who or what is NMC?

LiFePO4 is dead for EVs.

NMC is lithium nickel manganesse cobalt oxide. Its safer than lithium iron, and 40,000-80,000 cycle capable, with the energy density of LiCo.

Its increased safety and cycle life is what makes it the battery of choice for the Volt, the leaf, Volvo, BMW mission, Ford, hyandai, etc etc.

 

[Hillhater]

Hi,

I thought NMC was going to be the future of EV battery's ?? :?

Who or what is NMC?

NiMnCoO2
http://www.eigbattery.com/eng/product/3.jpg

C'mon Mitch, .. get with the search function. A fair bit of discussion about it on here. :wink:

 

[battman]

NMC is lithium nickel manganesse cobalt oxide. Its safer than lithium iron, and 40,000-80,000 cycle capable, with the energy density of LiCo.

At what depth of discharge and what C rating for both charge and discharge do you get 40000+ cycles?

 

[liveforphysics]

NMC is lithium nickel manganesse cobalt oxide. Its safer than lithium iron, and 40,000-80,000 cycle capable, with the energy density of LiCo.

At what depth of discharge and what C rating for both charge and discharge do you get 40000+ cycles?

80% DOD 1C/1C

 

[battman]

NMC is lithium nickel manganesse cobalt oxide. Its safer than lithium iron, and 40,000-80,000 cycle capable, with the energy density of LiCo.

At what depth of discharge and what C rating for both charge and discharge do you get 40000+ cycles?

80% DOD 1C/1C

I see EIG quote 1000 cycles to 80% of original capacity for 100% DOD for this chemistry at 1C discharge rate for their 20Ah pouch. Is the gap from 1000 cycles to 40000 cycles bridged just by discharging to 80% DOD instead of 100%, or other/ additional reasons (e.g. better implementation of the chemistry by another manufacturer, taking 'end-of-life' to be something less than 80% of original capacity)?

 

[liveforphysics]

Umm... Here is EIG's datasheet.

http://www.eigbattery.com/eng/product/3.jpg

How do you get 1,000 100% DOD cycles to 80% when the graph shows 1,000 100% DOD cycles ending up at roughly 97%?



Also, it's LG chem that makes the best NMC by a long shot. However, even the EIG's are still incredibly good.

 

[John in CR]

...Its increased safety and cycle life is what makes it the battery of choice for the Volt, the leaf, Volvo, BMW mission, Ford, hyandai, etc etc.

My only question is how can I make it the battery of choice for JohninCR Cyclery for well under $1/wh?

 

[liveforphysics]

...Its increased safety and cycle life is what makes it the battery of choice for the Volt, the leaf, Volvo, BMW mission, Ford, hyandai, etc etc.

My only question is how can I make it the battery of choice for JohninCR Cyclery for well under $1/wh?

Sadly, you can't even get datasheets from the top companies. :'(

I couldn't get data until our company had a lawyer pow-pow, filled out a pile of NDA's, then had a financial meeting to ensure our >10million dollar cell buying budget was enough to attract them. Then they flew out to us, and we had a meeting where we got to get datasheets....

 

[Hillhater]

So,.. are Sony just behind the 8 ball with their focus on Lithium Phosphate rather than NMC , or are they simply working a different market sector ?
Is there any reason you would not want NMC cells in power tools ?? :? Price maybe ?

 

[John in CR]

...Its increased safety and cycle life is what makes it the battery of choice for the Volt, the leaf, Volvo, BMW mission, Ford, hyandai, etc etc.

My only question is how can I make it the battery of choice for JohninCR Cyclery for well under $1/wh?

Sadly, you can't even get datasheets from the top companies. :'(

I couldn't get data until our company had a lawyer pow-pow, filled out a pile of NDA's, then had a financial meeting to ensure our >10million dollar cell buying budget was enough to attract them. Then they flew out to us, and we had a meeting where we got to get datasheets....

I don't need data sheets, and I definitely don't need no stinkin lawyers. I just want to buy some batteries. They don't need to tell me what's in them or even labels with their name on them. Hell they don't even need to mark which end is + and -. Is the shit just so easy to copy that they're terrified someone will copy it? If so, maybe we should all pitch in to buy one of those cars and a battery making machine.

I guess I have to wait for a crashed car and salvage a pack. 8)

 

[battman]

Umm... Here is EIG's datasheet.

http://www.eigbattery.com/eng/product/3.jpg

How do you get 1,000 100% DOD cycles to 80% when the graph shows 1,000 100% DOD cycles ending up at roughly 97%?

Also, it's LG chem that makes the best NMC by a long shot. However, even the EIG's are still incredibly good.

Look at the text directly above the cycle life graph, it says "1000 cycles to 80% nominal capacity" for 1C charge/ discharge at 100% DOD.

So there appears to be inconsistency in their data sheet.

 

[full-throttle]

Look at the text directly above the cycle life graph, it says "1000 cycles to 80% nominal capacity" for 1C charge/ discharge at 100% DOD.

So there appears to be inconsistency in their data sheet.

After 1000 cycles of 100% DoD @ 1C the cell will drop to 80% of its nominal capacity - a 20Ah cell will only hold 16Ah

Makes perfect sense to me

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

Who or what is NMC?

LiFePO4 is dead for EVs.

NMC is lithium nickel manganesse cobalt oxide. Its safer than lithium iron, and 40,000-80,000 cycle capable, with the energy density of LiCo.

Its increased safety and cycle life is what makes it the battery of choice for the Volt, the leaf, Volvo, BMW mission, Ford, hyandai, etc etc.

Thanks Luke!

My only question is how can I make it the battery of choice for JohninCR Cyclery for well under $1/wh?

Me too at about $0.40 per wh.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi Luke,

LiFePO4 is dead for EVs.

NMC is lithium nickel manganesse cobalt oxide. Its safer than lithium iron, and 40,000-80,000 cycle capable, with the energy density of LiCo.

Its increased safety and cycle life is what makes it the battery of choice for the Volt, the leaf, Volvo, BMW mission, Ford, hyandai, etc etc.

At what depth of discharge and what C rating for both charge and discharge do you get 40000+ cycles?

80% DOD 1C/1C

A Tesla driven by the proverbial little old lady back and forth to the grocery store and church ? Is there a substantial cycle life advantage at higher C rates?

 

[grandonia]

40000 cycles ? NMC cells ? Does anyone has real data of this kind of cells ? Notebook companies are using this cells in their notebook batteries, and they don´t last way more than LiCo cells (300-400 cycles). Are you talking about some special NMC cells ? BTW, did someone in this forum make a benchmark between NMC suppliers ?

 

[Nuts&Volts]

I dont think the 40000 number is quite right, but i have seen old EIG datasheets that show 3000 cycles at 80%DOD and 5000 at 50% DOD. Both numbers show cycles to 80% capacity retention.