Th!nk City to be produced in the U.S.

[madmadscientist]

Hello All,

Okay I swear I'm not a shill for Th!nk I just think that it would be a great car to own in the SF Bay area.

Autoblog green reports that Th!nk is moving produciton into the U.S.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/03/12/th-nk-details-u-s-manufacturing-sales-plans-hopes-to-sell-cit/

If they can sell them for under $20,000 with an $80-90 batt rental fee I think they will sell like hotcakes.

Those numbers are less than what they were saying they were going to do in England so I don't know if its just marketing hype or not.

What do y'all think? I'll have to test drive the iMEV also..by 2010 I think thats the only other fully electric vehicle thats supposed to be out there.

Daniel Neumansky
Alameda CA

 

[madmadscientist]

I just realized after reading the post again that this sub $20,000 price is with the $7,500 tax credit.
So 15 views and no replies?
What do y'all think? Would the Th!nk City be a good idea at these prices or am I off my rocker?

 

[knightmb]

Well, just break down the math on it I guess. But I have other questions that I can't find answers too.

The battery lease didn't mention why kind, but I'll list what I think are the pros and cons.

Pros:

1. Battery Rental means you can ride the technology wave. So if your current battery pack is good for a 100 mile charge, the next generation might be good for 150 miles, so you can get free upgrades without having to buy an entire pack every year
2. Battery recycling and repair can be centralized. If you get a bum pack, get it replaced, maybe something in the old can be savaged, but at least you don't have to spend a small fortune on batteries and it will avoid the huge waste that all those Prius batteries are going to make one day.
3. I think the battery lease idea if a better approach to making pure EV cars more affordable since that's what about 75% the cost of the vehicle is. Battery pack installation if planned right, can be as simple as sliding out the old pack, slide in the new pack, connect it up and you are ready to go.
4. Starting small is always best. Get in the market to get people to school, to work, to the grocery store, all the small trips that don't need to fire up the gas burner for.
5. Education is a big thing, the public will know that electric vehicles aren't just toys or those guys from ES always riding around on e-bikes
6. Young people, they don't have set mindset of everything must be a certain way, more open to change, more appeal to them if they can get around town and hang out with friends. Parents won't have to worry about them driving to another state on a whim.
7. A $20K car loan (say 5 year average at a high 4.9% interest) works out to about $376 a month. Factor in not having to spend money on oil changes, air filter changes, and other gas maintenance, you'll save a lot of money. Leasing the batteries helps to eliminate the depreciation of the packs over time so you don't have to save up for some large expense in 5 years (or less) so other than keeping good tires, brakes, and what other things that can wear out on the car ( I guess the motor, gears, etc.) can't cost more than what you would spend on it's gas counterpart. The real savings will be the gas vs. electricity part and with gas prices starting to go up once again, you'll save even more over time.

Cons:

1. High entry price - the vehicles are small and while I'm sure they will comfortably get two people from point A to point B, the price of a gas vehicle that has more room and with a 4 banger engine, fairly descent gas mileage; will play a big role when it comes time to buy a new vehicle. You can get a lot of gas car for $20K, but it doesn't seem to work very well for the electric counterparts. $20K can get me a new Camry that sits a lot of adults, a lot of trunk room, and a nice fuel efficient 4 cylinder engine with plenty of kick.
2. Room for more - they really need to focus on bigger (not like Hummer bigger) cars that can seat more adults, put more stuff in the back, etc. Right now, I can buy a used old Toyota or Honda for a few thousand, rip out the engine, put in electric motor, batteries, and stuff but still come in under $20K with a vehicle that's much bigger and more family friendly. I know that one day the batteries will need to be replaced, another big purchase, but a lot of people just don't think that way. They like electric, and if it comes in a good family size with descent range and not have to worry about buying more batteries in 5 years, they would jump on it.
3. Lease - a lot of people have a bad taste from leasing. Often because when you hear the word lease, it sounds like "pay to drive and if anything goes wrong, you better pay a fortune to fix it or else we'll charge you the full purchase price of the vehicle". I think just for marketing reasons, come up with another term about what to do with the batteries. Lease makes it sound like the car really isn't yours, your just paying a lot of money to drive someone else's vehicle.
4. Lease fee is high - at about $80 a month, that's more than what a lot people spend on gas, seems like they are canceling out the benefits of electric cars with the lease even if it means keeping your batteries at the cutting edge of technology

 

[madmadscientist]

Thanks for the well reasoned response.

I just checked the MSRP for the fancy model smart fortwo and wow I was shocked at how cheap it is only $14,000 course it gets cruddy mileage. So wow if the smart (ICE) which is darn near the same car as the Th!nk goes for that cheap can they sell Th!nks for $20,000...hmmmm...doesnt seem like such a super fabulous deal to me now...

Don't know what the math is but that $80/month battery fee... I wonder how it compares to the amortized cost of owning an ICF...once you add in gas, maint, replacement costs I wonder if it equals out?

So, not the slam dunk I was originally thinking it was...wonder if enough wealthy people will buy them so we can get economies of scale and drive down the prices for the rest of us?

 

[knightmb]

I like their battery lease idea, and the car design; at least from the pictures looks fine to me. I just think they need to think about a 4 door model, extend the back out a little for more people, stuff to haul in the back.

For only $12,000 (batteries included), I can get a 4 door Zap, fully electric vehicle. It doesn't go very fast, or very far, but it does seat a family and has space in the back to haul some things around. It uses lead acid batteries, so just imagine if you could pop in NiMH or Lith batteries. Weight would go down (or add enough to equal the weight and just get more speed/range out of it) You can purchase these without the batteries too to further reduce the price for those that want to hook up their own power source of some kind.

There are also plenty of mods for the Zap to make it go faster/further (such as battery change out, power controller upgrade, tire upgrade, etc) and they already have an online community that I keep up with from time to time to see how the vehicles are holding out. It's just too bad they all come from China though, not that I have anything against China manufacturing, it's just that a small factory building these could be done here in the US to help lower the price even more since a large part of their cost is getting them shipped *from* China to here.

If business for me was better, I would have bought one for those times when you just need more cargo room and family is needed instead of what I can fit on my e-bike. Right now, I drive an old 94' Volvo 850 for those kind of trips when taking the family out or need to pile in some groceries for the week. That's why I think if the electric car is going to make a come back, it needs to start small, but not *too* small. Once people get use to the friendly electric car, then the culture will drive itself with larger, faster vehicles, higher capacity, etc. I just hope I don't see any electric full-sized hummers in my lifetime

[edit: Turns out the tax credit for these is back, that will knock off another $1,100 come tax time]

 

[CGameProgrammer]

As mentioned, the car sounds like it'll sell for around $28000; it's only $20k after you get back the $7500 rebate from the government. And that high price does not include the battery pack, which is leased at $90/month ($1080/year). That's really expensive.

The best way to introduce electric cars is not with stuff like this; it's with mass acceptance of hybrids. Flood the market with them and not only will people be more accepting of electric motors being used for propulsion, but mass production of those components would drive down the cost of manufacturing electric cars (with the possible exception of the battery pack which depends on the raw materials available).

I'm much more interested in what Tesla's doing. They're still a tiny niche company but maybe their next car, the "Model S", will help them improve production quantity as well as niggling reliability issues. The car will be revealed on March 26th.

 

[madmadscientist]

I don't know if its fair to compare the ZAP thing with the Th!nk price wise. The Th!nk City is in a completely different bracket. Its a 'real' car not a toy neighborhood runabout that didn't need to pass any saftey testing.
The 4 door thing...I understand that a 4 door would appeal to a larger audience but look how well the the 2 seater Smart Car is doing. I think 2 seaters with some cargo space will do well in urban environments.

So $20,000 with a $10,000 yearly fee might be too much for these? Anyone know what the IMEV is supposed to be selling for?

Speaking of price the tesla is $100,000, the Tango is also in that range and uh what's an Apterra go for from the mid $20,000 up to $40,000 in those contexts it doesnt seem insanely priced? Or does it?

Just looking for opinions here, no right or wrong answer.

 

[dnmun]

i disagree that Zap is not a real car. i see them all the time, along with hybrids, they do perfectly ok in traffic, of course i am always just driving alongside and yakking at them about EV's. but i drive bicycle speed in town anymore, anything to slow down the stampeding buffaloes.

no electric vehicle is gonna be a simple transcontinental solution, always gonna be local, as far as we build out the charging outposts. so it depends more on the infrastructure than the vehicle, imo.

 

[CGameProgrammer]

The Tesla is a true sports car, delivering sports-car levels of performance. Their $60k Model S is supposed to be a luxury sedan. They're not economobiles.

 

[dnmun]

just to make the argument, why have so many of the tesla roadsters been destroyed in wrecks under normal high performance driving?

i know i will never see a tesla roadster, but there are 4 Zaps in my small se portland neighborhood, about 20 insight hybrids, 3 GEMS, and oodles of priuses.

5 days ago, i saw a guy in traffic on a mountain bike from a distance, and i was thinking to myself that he should not be hanging the 3 bike tires around his neck but it is effective in transporting them and then suddenly it dawned on me "he's not pedaling". that makes 5 ebikes i have seen on the street, besides the guys i know from meeting them.

 

[madmadscientist]

The Tesla is a true sports car, delivering sports-car levels of performance. Their $60k Model S is supposed to be a luxury sedan. They're not economobiles.

granted, but the Tango? and the model S is ~3x the price of the Th!nk City-it still looks like the City is a bargain-not cheap but a bargain by comparison no?

I've driven the zappy thing, I've driven a ZENN car and to me they don't feel like a 'real' car they seem more like toys. I have not driven a Th!nk City but everyone I've talked to who has seems to be really impressed by its 'real carness' if thats a word.

 

[knightmb]

The Tesla is a true sports car, delivering sports-car levels of performance. Their $60k Model S is supposed to be a luxury sedan. They're not economobiles.

granted, but the Tango? and the model S is ~3x the price of the Th!nk City-it still looks like the City is a bargain-not cheap but a bargain by comparison no?

I've driven the zappy thing, I've driven a ZENN car and to me they don't feel like a 'real' car they seem more like toys. I have not driven a Th!nk City but everyone I've talked to who has seems to be really impressed by its 'real carness' if thats a word.

I'm sure that's why it has the higher price tag, more research into making it feel more like a car. The high price tag though, I just can't see how it's justified. Maybe I just need more technical info about it, like does it have an awesome crash rating, does have excellent handling, does it go fast!, etc? I would need to drive one myself to know for sure. I've driven the Zappy though and I thought it was going to be toy like, but actually it drove just fine. I wouldn't expect to take it down the Interstate, but I know it's designed for in town transportation. For where I live, the speed limit is barely above 30 MPH except when you get outside the city limits or just a single highway that's close by. Even then, traffic really prevents you from going fast most of the time (that's why the e-bike comes in so handy here)

I would see the Th!nk as a more in and out of town electric vehicle. You live in a suburb, but have to drive the Interstate to your office job in a nearby city and need the higher top speed, etc. For that, I would see it as a perfect fit. A step up from the zaps and other NEV vehicles indeed, but is the price justified at 3 times more expensive is really my only concern?

To be fair though, we are all biased in some way. We all have a thing for electric vehicles, so we understand the different between kilowatts and amp/hours, but try selling this to average Joe though. People look online for a lot of prices now, it's going to be tough to sell a $28K vehicle when for the same price minus the rebates, you get a sweet ride in a gas car with high gas mileage. The Th!nk needs to be more than just a car that's electric, it needs to really stand out in some way. Battery leasing is a start, for those that understand what they really means in terms of having to change out the packs some time down the road on the life of the vehicle. But it needs more, for lack of better terms, "marketing appeal" to the people they are targeting for sales.

All in all, I hope they do well, as well as the others because we need the driving companies out there for this technology. We know what the big 3 here in this country do, just make a bunch of gas guzzling and huge vehicles to drive. Every vehicle has it's place and use, but this country has become too "bigger is better" over zombified.