The "Civil disobedience" 10 step backwards 1 forward...

[gwhy!]

Where you monitoring the current ?, do you know what sort of current you were pulling when it popped ? was the controller hot when it popped what was the peek current ?.

Need to know some stuff before any one can recommend a sensored controller/setup for you, there is a bit of a debate going on as to which controller will be suitable for this motor . I will be doing some testing on the smaller modified 6fet controller ( hopefully within the next week or 2 ) on the same motor as your running. A modded 12 or 18 fet controller would defo be up for the job but AJ keeps telling everyone its the size of a "house brick" but its not really that bad .

-If I'm looking at the right log file it pulled 4 very short peaks at 100A during a 6 s period. At the last peak I heard that something went wrong and shut the throttle. When opening it again after 20 s it went in to flames.
-Don´t now the temp at that time, but the ESC never went hot during my other testing when I was pulling 150A repeatedly.
-The size is not such a matter.

What controller is it that your going to test? I´m a little bit behind in the debate on those.... :?

/Goethe

Hi Goethe,
The I am using is the e-crazyman/keywin 6fet controller ( modified ) I have used upto 100A without issue but with a smaller motor this is why I will be testing it with the bigger motor to see if it can handle it. From my experiences of these controllers they are more than capable of handling 100A+ once modified especially the 12 -18 fet controllers ( not that I have modded a bigger one yet ) but some people have had issues with these controller with this particular motor. The only person that I know of that is running a big motor with one of these modified controllers is burtie on these forums and I dont think he has had any problems but not sure what the max current he is pulling from it.

 

[RWP]

Look'en just fabulous!

Just off the top, I know the controller seemed to fry at start up, could the fact that - it is my impression - that you seem to be running without a freewheel have over taxed the controller when slowing down???

Very cool build!
Roy

 

[recumpence]

OH, VERY good point!

You absolutely CANNOT run these without a freewheel! If you back spin the cotroller, it will blow for sure! I have blown two that way.

100 amps is not big deal. I was pulling 250 amps off mine repeatedly. It took 400 amps to blow it (on 12S).

Matt

 

[AussieJester]

Indeedy...its hard to tell how he has attached that rear sprocket i am guessing though he has a freewheel on there
with the 43t sprocket bolted to it? If not ...expensive mistake

Matt...have you ever blown a HV160 when riding other than the 2 blown when they didnt start up on the yellow beast?

KiM

 

[recumpence]

Yes, I have blown 4 of them. Here is the list;

#1 Back driving one motor by running the twin drive with only one ESC powered up on the test bench. (Stupid mistake).
#2 Back driving one motor by running the trike when only one controller armed. (My own haste).
#3 Plugged in and nothing happened. This is from the regulator on the board blowing from the arming. (Now I arm with a resistor).
#4 Pulled 410 amps off the two controllers repeatedly and finally blew one.

So, my problems have all been my own doing other than the innitial power-up ESC that blew.

Matt

 

[AussieJester]

So, my problems have all been my own doing other than the innitial power-up ESC that blew.

Matt

Thanx for the info Matt i was hoping it was "user error" i guess we can put it down too...hrmz..LoL
being the electronics guru i am i can't see user error being an issue for me :lol:

KiM

 

[Goethe]

Freewheel????

Nope it´s hardwired both directions.

Aaaah! of coarse, it's messes up the commutation...right?

Two very expensive mistakes. Sheit....

/Goethe

 

[AussieJester]

Oh dear .....Least you know its an easy fix I would HIGHLY recommend a White Industries Eno freewheel available from Sickbikeparts.com standard freewheels aren't going to cut it for long...

KiM

 

[recumpence]

What happens is, the back driving of the motor pumps too much voltage into the controller and blows it. And, when it blows in this way, it really makes some serious fire (ask me how I know)!

Matt

 

[etard]

Dude! I thought that was a Lugged frame with lugs painted yellow until I realized it is a yellow bike with paint grinded down to metal where possible. I'm guessing the frame is steel and you are welding on motor mount and pegs? It looks really cool so far, have you thought about putting everything in a backpack? How come nobody does this? I've never seen a n HV go up in smoke so I don't know how bad this can be. I just really enjoy how pure it looks right now, but you do have plenty of triangle to work with. Nice bike, I think we are all hoping to see this turn into a reliable ride for you.

 

[dozentrio]

have you thought about putting everything in a backpack?

everything, as in batteries and controller? I used to carry my battery pack in backpack. I don't know if I would do it with the controller anymore, as I expect it will need better cooling. The pack also got a bit big/heavy. Even lipos weigh a bit at 650wh

 

[Goethe]

How much reversing is needed to blow the controller? I backed just half a meter or so.

Yes it was a pretty massive fire! The HV160 blowed in much more spectacular way then the HV110 and I had to put my hand into the fire to disconnect the battery...ouch!

I've mounted footpegs in BMX style directly on the rear wheel shaft. Heck, I´m used to aquard position from racing 125's and 250's
The electronics are mounted in the triangle right now.

I want to keep freewheel out of this build, does this leave me with only the sensored controller option?

I´m glad to hear that you think it looks cool

/goethe

 

[Byte]

How much reversing is needed to blow the controller? I backed just half a meter or so.

Yes it was a pretty massive fire! The HV160 blowed in much more spectacular way then the HV110 and I had to put my hand into the fire to disconnect the battery...ouch!

I've mounted footpegs in BMX style directly on the rear wheel shaft. Heck, I´m used to aquard position from racing 125's and 250's
The electronics are mounted in the triangle right now.

I want to keep freewheel out of this build, does this leave me with only the sensored controller option?

I´m glad to hear that you think it looks cool

/goethe

You blew the new HV160 you bought just bought?

 

[Goethe]

You blew the new HV160 you bought just bought?

Sadly yes

But I have gone in to a mode where the costs are falling in priority and the obesessive-urge-to-be-out-and-hammer-the-throttle goes up.

/Goethe

 

[Thud]

Goethe said:

But I have gone in to a mode where the costs are falling in priority and the obesessive-urge-to-be-out-and-hammer-the-throttle goes up.

hehe I like the way you think......& judging by your avitar, we are on the same path.
I am attempting to do about the same thing...We just need a controller set up that will with stand the thrashing of a racing environment.

 

[Goethe]

have you thought about putting everything in a backpack?

everything, as in batteries and controller? I used to carry my battery pack in backpack. I don't know if I would do it with the controller anymore, as I expect it will need better cooling. The pack also got a bit big/heavy. Even lipos weigh a bit at 650wh

It is a very stealth an cool solution but fire in a backpack is something I could live without.

Maybe in a Camelbak and mount a sprinkler to the water bag. :lol:


/Goethe

 

[Byte]

You blew the new HV160 you bought just bought?

Sadly yes

But I have gone in to a mode where the costs are falling in priority and the obesessive-urge-to-be-out-and-hammer-the-throttle goes up.

/Goethe

Damn that sucks

It's strange that the ESC blew after you only backed half a meter...

 

[Goethe]

A little update with pics...

Keep in mind that it´s still very much in prototype phase.

My view

Powered by Castle....

This is how it looks right now

Now with brakes...

...at the rear

Something to put the foot at

BattPack and electronics

2s2p connection box. Milled out of a black piece of plastic and alu lid.

Updated the transmission with bolts at the end of the shafts and putting shims to keep the pulleys in line.

/Goethe

 

[johnrobholmes]

Where did you get that front secondary stage sprocket? It is tiny!

 

[Byte]

That's better than porn!! I'm so in love with this bike, it's damn sexy!I see an EagleTree datalogger, could you post some graphs of this monster? What does the black CC ESC over there lol?

EDIT: I still have to buy a chain for my bike but I dunno if I need to buy a regular one or a hardened one, it needs to hold up the power? What one are you using?

 

[Goethe]

Where did you get that front secondary stage sprocket? It is tiny!

Sprocket on the pics are 9t but I also got a 8t.

I bought them from a Swedish supplier transmission parts. http://www.teknikprodukter.se/
The homepage is in Swedish so it might be little tricky to navigate. (Not for me... :wink: )

The sprocket was cheap (7$) but the pulleys and belt was pretty expensive, something like 200$!


/Goethe

 

[Goethe]

That's better than porn!! I'm so in love with this bike, it's damn sexy!I see an EagleTree datalogger, could you post some graphs of this monster? What does the black CC ESC over there lol?

EDIT: I still have to buy a chain for my bike but I dunno if I need to buy a regular one or a hardened one, it needs to hold up the power? What one are you using?

Hehe...what ever turns you on man...

It´s a Wippermann 1R8. I wanted the 1G8 which is even more heavy duty but it was out of stock at CRC. http://www.connexchain.com/Bicycle-chains/BMX/1_342.html

/Goethe

 

[Goethe]

Lately everything I touches seems to fall a part.

This is the verdict of the last two weeks:
1 HV110 (Blown due to reversing)
1 HV160 (Blown due to reversing)
2 Cheapo 6FET controllers (Stupid user mistake)
1 HXT 80-100 (Windings crap)
1 My girlfriends HUB motor (Windings fried, I think)

But first the fun stuff!

After both CC controllers broke down I decided that I will switch to sensored controllers. This led me to taking a look at upgrading a 36V 6FET controller from a local supplier. I´ve been running it at 50V (12s) with no mods and it seems to work. My girlfriends bike will run like this.

But for my high power setup I have done following:
FET: IRF1010 -> IRF4110
CAPS: 50V 1000uF -> 100V 1000uF
Shunt: 1 pcs -> 2 pcs (Half voltage drop)
Beefing up the traces with led.
Polished thermal contact surfaces.

The controller is equipped standard with a switching VR. First the voltage is brought down 3V by a resistor then the SMPS brings it down to 12.8 V.
The 5V is regulated by a 78M05 from the 12.8V. All VR is kept standard and singing along well.
uC is a Cypress 24 Mhz PSOC and is driving the FET's via a Totem pole solution. No gate driver!
My concern when using 4110's was that the higher gate charge would slow down the switching. And also put stress on gate current supply. I have not looked at it in the scoop yet but it runs real well. Pulling 30A at a long time at very low speed only brought FET case up to 15 C above ambient. (But fried the wifey´s motor )
Next thing is to water cool it. Then I think it´s possible to pull 100+A from it?!
One concern is still high rpm which I have not been possible to try yet. Fingers crossed!

Anybody know the brand?

New and old Cap

Cap barely fits

Parallel shunts

Beefier traces

Now to the less fun stuff....what to do with the motors :x

My 80-100

The wifey's hub motor

It´s absolute that the 80-100 needs new windings but I´m not so sure about the hub motor. When I measured before I took it apart was the hall 5V SC to one of the phase wires but I´m not sure if there are any more SC's. I've never seen burned windings in real life so I can't really tell if they are crap or not?!


-How the heck am I going to get the windings off? They are hard as rock!
-Does anybody have a proven winding scheme and wire thickness for the 80-100-130?
-Should I go Delta or Wye? or maybe both?
-Does anybody have a replacement motor to sell/recommend?



/Goethe

 

[Thud]

Goethe,
1st, the hub motor doesn't look too bad from your photo's. If you burned a winding you should see where it got very hot by discoloration (looks different from the other sections) or very dull varnish in a section on the stator.

Now tell me what you did to the turnigy! did you pick up some debrie' or did something come loose & grind all the wires off the end of the stator.
If I recall corectly that motor is wound with 30 or 36 strands of 30AWG magnet wire in 8 turns per tooth. DLRK terminated in delta.

You have an oportunity to make the motor a little more friendly by re-winding it.
you can soften the epoxy holding the stator on the bearing tube by boiling it in water for an hour or quicker by heating it with a hot air gun.

If its not something you would like to attempt on your own, you may have a local re-winding shop that could do the work for you. (I fear it will still be more than your original purchase price of the motor though)
sorry to see you blowing controllers ( i have some experiance myself )
good luck, Hope I helped

 

[Goethe]

Goethe,
1st, the hub motor doesn't look too bad from your photo's. If you burned a winding you should see where it got very hot by discoloration (looks different from the other sections) or very dull varnish in a section on the stator.

Now tell me what you did to the turnigy! did you pick up some debrie' or did something come loose & grind all the wires off the end of the stator.
If I recall corectly that motor is wound with 30 or 36 strands of 30AWG magnet wire in 8 turns per tooth. DLRK terminated in delta.

You have an oportunity to make the motor a little more friendly by re-winding it.
you can soften the epoxy holding the stator on the bearing tube by boiling it in water for an hour or quicker by heating it with a hot air gun.

If its not something you would like to attempt on your own, you may have a local re-winding shop that could do the work for you. (I fear it will still be more than your original purchase price of the motor though)
sorry to see you blowing controllers ( i have some experiance myself )
good luck, Hope I helped

Thanx Thud!

I measured all the phase wires and got 7 mΩ phase to phase. It was done with an ordinary multimeter so maybe it´s not to any help.
So maybe I should just fix the SC at Hall 5V and put it back together. :?

On the Turnigy I think that the insulation got worn down against the ALU of the motor and short circuited. Then the wires started to burn off.
It could be this that killed the HV160 ?!

Rewinding is NOT something I´m looking forward to. But there is really not any other option right now. So it just "Taking the bull by the horn".

I don´t want to change the kv to much but I could add a winding or two to add some impedance.

-The difference in kv of the 130 vs 170 is 20 rpm/winding. Is it realistic that I reduce kv by 20 if 1 winding is added


/Goethe