thermometer stickers, do people use them?

[jimmyhackers]

just had a random thought, would be nice to know how hot my hub motor gets. (am thinking of overwatting..... again)

turns out they make the things i was thinking of, anyone else use them on thier hub motors?
if so what tempreture range would you recomend?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/231458660166?hash=item35e402df46:g:sugAAOSwmrlUvpzH

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/391033965467?hash=item5b0b70cb9b:g:sy8AAOSwa39UvpwB

 

[Comrade]

Another more high tech solution would be using an infrared temp module (~$10) sitting close to the hub and sending the readout somewhere else to be displayed.

 

[calab]

Never heard or read such a thing, its a great concept and easily doable.
How do you go about displaying it, I see the ebay pcb modules were easy to find.

Another more high tech solution would be using an infrared temp module (~$10) sitting close to the hub and sending the readout somewhere else to be displayed.

 

[Comrade]

Never heard or read such a thing, its a great concept and easily doable.

Well, it came to me in a dream. :lol:

How do you go about displaying it, I see the ebay pcb modules were easy to find.

It's a classic i2c slave device. So once the i2c master (Arduino, ESP8266, anything with i2c support) reads the data it can send it anywhere else. Could be a 20x2 i2c LCD display. Or any other display available on the Arduino DIY scene. Or log it along with other data. Or send it over bluetooth or WiFi to a phone app. The possibilities are endless.

 

[calab]

If the temperature diode is in the windings already, display it to a $4 digital screen on the handlebars or would you need something in between to convert it?

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Digital-Led-Display-Thermometer-Fridge-Temperature-Gauge-Meter-Monitor-3Type/254603868463
Temperature Range: -30 to +800 ℃ degree Centigrade

People use those plastigauge stickers on the hubs, but once they reach the limit you have to stick another on, could go with a laser temp reader that you carry with you. https://www.harborfreight.com/121-infrared-laser-thermometer-63985.html

or afix a wired bbq thermometer, routed out the axle, up to the handlebar.

 

[Comrade]

If the temperature diode is in the windings already, display it to a $4 digital screen on the handlebars or would you need something in between to convert it?

You'd need something to read the temp sensor and then drive the display. An Arduino/ESP8266 is just the right tool for that.

could go with a laser temp reader that you carry with you. https://www.harborfreight.com/121-infrared-laser-thermometer-63985.html

That i2c infrared temp module is the same thing as in the "laser" temp gun. It would be like constantly pointing a "laser" gun at your hub and getting a readout somewhere else.

If someone has an internal temp sensor, then they don't need to read the temp externally then.

 

[Chalo]

just had a random thought, would be nice to know how hot my hub motor gets. (am thinking of overwatting..... again)

I have a buddy who overcooks his BBSHD bike, and he has used thermal decals almost from day one. He uses them as comparative, rather than absolute, thermometers.

It's important to note that any part of the motor that you can put a sticker on won't reach the same temperature as the stator in normal use.

 

[DogDipstick]

I got those on my hub. I hae had them there for 2 years.

I have also given away about ten to other e biker.s across the nation.. and farther. Free. I have shipped them across the world to other ebikers.

i use these. Now for the record, I also datalog internal hub temps. I also photo external hub temps with a FLIR. On comparing the inside/outside temps, the inside is usually reaches at least 2x the outside temp..

*86F - *194F.... the high range sticker doesnt really ever get used.. the low range is fine for everday use. I eventually removed teh high-range sticker b/c it hardly ever would show red ( only once in a while on a good hot day). I cannot get the outside of the hub shell much higher than *130F. Ever. I think I have been past *140F like.. once. Maybe twice. Outside.

Others have too. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=temp+stickers

Here is a thread from 2010, long before both of us. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18868

 

[calab]

Just need a controller that can read the temp and limit the power if motor already came with temp thermistor epoxied into the windings, so many ways to do it. The cheap controllers I have cant limit power with temp thermistor.

I just go by touch, after a long hill just touch the cover plate and if its to hot then dunk the motor into a fountain pond, creek, river or let the sprinkler spray the hub motor or spray some of your electrolyte gatorade onto it. Put hand on cover plate, count one one thousand, two one thousand and three one thousand, if you cant hold your hand on the cover plate for more then 3 your probably on the limits, depending on the motor. 2 one thousands is probably getting real close, 1 one thousand its to hot.

 

[DogDipstick]

Just need a ... and limit the power if

... then dunk the motor into a fountain pond, creek, river or let the sprinkler spray

.. yeah but then... you .. have to.. limit powa.. (gasp blasphemy! heathen! )...

Lol yeah the sock, stocking, wrapped around the hub, and soaked in water, from your water bottle.. works.. surprisingly well. Latent heat of evaporation will take more heat away than a hubsink, almost.....Almost. However, is not an automated process control. Power rollback is automated. That is kinda important. Also depends on relative humidity for the ambient... so it works better in the cold dry months.. as opposed to the warm humid months... When you happen to need the cooling the most.

 

[calab]

Buy a thick, heavy dd motor that soaks up the heat and sheds it then just limit its power by your controller choice, or cycle analyst.
Like I said so many ways to have your cake and eat it to.

Holes in the cover plates
Add aluminum fins
Statorade
Heck you could even automate a bottle of water to drip on the hub automatically, hey Ardruinos are good for that
The one that I love the best is the guy who installed mini fans inside the hub
Why buy an underpowered hub motor to just over heat it, to save a few grams after eating big mac and large diet cola.

 

[DogDipstick]

Buy a thick, heavy dd motor that soaks up the heat and sheds it then just limit its power by your controller choice, or cycle analyst.
Like I said so many ways to have your cake and eat it to.

I would rather have a thin, light dd motor soaking up the heat, and shedding it... and yes, I have datalogged the limiting by the CA. I have experimented with limiting, but CA system is complicated when fully speced out. You need a shunt and for any power you need a big one ( not the stock CA shunt, but a full size one, right?) and the CA needs to run the everything.. like interface the throttle line. Fail points if you like to beat on your bike. I mean, 20kW on a 3kW QS motor is ridiculous power and even then the 3kW QS stayed cooler, bare, than my 1000w QS does.

My bike will have its cake, and eat it too. Lol.

My bike will have its spare hall sensors in the drawer, also, thankyou.

Here a pic of a 3kW QS right after a 10 mile ride, or so ( run at 3x its continuous rating, with 6x rated peak). You can see its twice as thick motor. The brake is hot, the motor, not so much. This motor did have the Cycle Analyst thermal limiter controlling the temperatures. The one shown above is the 1kW QS, totally unlimited, running at 3x its rated continuous duty, also.

 

[DogDipstick]

Why buy an underpowered hub motor to just over heat it, to save a few grams after eating big mac and large diet cola.

A few grams?

No. The QS 205 V3, 3000w, is... 50H magnet.. ... 33 lbs. ( and yes, there are guys out there who will, and do, overheat them)

The QS 205 V1, 35H 1000w, is... get this....16 POUNDS lighter, at 17lbs.

It is worth it, to save 16 lbs, of unsprung weight, on a 80 lb bike. It is 20% of the weight of the bike. It is not, what you are calling,... "a few grams".

I would much rather have a light motor in the wheel than a heavy one, if I am going to be around reasonable ebike power levels (~3kW)...If I can.

 

[dogman dan]

On some of my hub motors, I intended to ride them in muddy, wet conditions, when I could get them. Ride around while the streets are flooded for ten min after a storm, etc.

Worried about water in the hub, I drilled a few tiny 1/8 inch holes in the covers, so water could exit in the form of vapor over the next few drier rides. I just wanted to not accumulate a half inch of water inside. But not let in anything big, small rocks and such that get in the motor through a half inch cooling hole.

As it turned out, it made a great thermometer. Stopping briefly, without even getting off the saddle I could smell the motor. Warm motor has a kind of a hot butter smell, while the windings turning black has a much more distinctive burning butter smell. I stopped melting my halls so much after that. Once I smelled a hotter motor, I knew not to stop riding right then, but go for a half mile or so of cool down run. Stopping with it good and hot spikes the temp of a hub motor, when the wind stops. So if you hot up, then stop, the heat spike melts your halls.

Bigger cooling holes help a lot with the heat spike when you stop, but wont keep up with a seriously over watted motor. It won't stop 4000w from melting a 500w rated motor is what I mean. But holes can help a lot with that heat spike when you stop. And they let you smell it.

With exterior thermometers of any kind, you can watch this spike happen when you stop.

Of course, you have to stop for a sniff, before you actually combust your winding varnish. I've seen flames come out of larger cooling holes.

 

[stan.distortion]

I use them all the time for brewing, great little things. As mentioned above, they're not going to give you accurate readings for this application but they'll be a very useful "at a glance" indicator with more accurate measurements taken for comparison. There's also thermal paints, as far as I know they're available fairly cheaply for both floating and fixed temps, floating for the current temperature or fixed as a telltale for maximum temperature (stays the same max temp colour after it's cooled down).

 

[jimmyhackers]

thanks for the replies

im currently running my 1000w hub motor on a 1500w controller.

neither of which go past warm.

im contemplating doing a shunt mod to bring it to somewhere arounrd 2 - 3 kw.

im contemplating statorade/oil cooling...but might just see if it can cope without.

im not going to try much untill i get a good watt meter for testing though, thought a temp sticker would be a good idea aswell.

 

[calab]

Do not choose to buy an underpowered hub just to drill holes in covers, glue fans or some aluminum heat sinks.
You are just limiting yourself to any upside potential and in the end spend more money.
Instead of a 250w motor up the size so it can handle more watts, is all I am saying.
No need to jump from a 9c 1kw 25H to a 55H 5kw, but if you live in a hilly area, are fat or carry cargo dont buy the 9c buy the Leaf 1500w with some statorade.

I'd suggest statorade, its an effective mod that wont leak, because ATF or other oils will leak.

 

[SafeDiscDancing]

In my world I use 50 volts @ 50 amps (2500 watts) at just about three pounds.

Roughly one horsepower per pound but the #219 chain and sprocket adds another pound or two plus mounting the motor securely but still... the scale is in the one to one level... definitely one to two.

Hub motors are just too heavy for the power they produce.

The QS 205 V1, 35H 1000w, is... get this....16 POUNDS lighter, at 17lbs.

So that's like one horsepower to 17 pounds?

I mean I understand that I had a lot of DIY work to get an ebike to perform like this but why are people still seriously talking about perfornance on hub motors?

Makes very little sense.

And after my most recent rewind of my motor that increased Copper Fill by 4% and perfected the kV for my use it now doesn't even get hot if the temperature is below 60 degrees. It begins to get hot on the hot days but then I cool it with a fan between rides.

Anyway... the cure is fundamental. Fix the primary design charactoristics and you just don't generate all this wasted heat.

 

[DogDipstick]

The QS 205 V1, 35H 1000w, is... get this....16 POUNDS lighter, at 17lbs.

So that's like one horsepower to 17 pounds?

I mean I understand that I had a lot of DIY work to get an ebike to perform like this but why are people still seriously talking about perfornance on hub motors?

ix the primary design charactoristics and you just don't generate all this wasted heat.

I mean I understand that I had a lot of DIY work to get an ebike to perform like this but why are people still seriously talking about perfornance on hub motors?

Well... Alot of people run 20kW ( 26hp) on the 3kW QS motor. Can your "2500w motor at 1hp / lb" do that? 26 horsepower? Almost 10x its rated power out?

..can your 2500w motor .. do... 70+ MPH? While torking you along like a ZX10? Ever do... 70mph on that lil "2500w midmotor"?

Mine can. Have you ever done 70 mph on an ebike? I have, on a hub motor ebike. Please, , maybe we can share experiences.

Cannot talk about stock power levels if you are talking about performance. Lets talk over volted, over amped, and filled with cooland and strapped with cooling fins ( and temp sensors?)...

I run my " 1000w motor" at 4000W contin and 8000w peak. Can your " 2500w motor" do that? My bike is 1hp/10lbs. 80 lb bike, 8hp peak. How much is this " 2500w motor" bike gonna weigh? What will the PWR/Weight ration gonna be?

Can your " 2500w" do 50 mph, like my bike? Every day for 10,000 miles plus? Almost 10x its rated power out?

Why not?

Trust me, there is some attraction to a DD hub if you never had one.

A "3kW 33 lb" hub motor will DESTROY a "3kw 3lb" mid drive in straight line, flat ground, performance. Absolutely destroy. Then last 10x longer under that very power level that would leave your 3lb mid drive shuddering and crying for help.

I love my bike, perfect at 48% front 52% rear. It rips. All day. Never dies. I tries to kill it to but wont die.. Throws ten pound rocks.
A bbso2 is like 15-17 lbs for .. one horsepower.. but i think you can overvolt it for two or so ( 1400w). A BBSHD is like.. 18? 20? lbs for.. 2000w peak. My Lightning Rods Mid drive big block is like 15 lbs for 6ooow. What motor do you have?

Lol. I got alot of friends in the hub motor world. Hands down love their bikes. Demand has risen the price of this motor to 420$. Has a resale value. Has a big big market for the smooth, quiet, reliable, torque laden power.

We have our reasons, even though you may find them.. " unreasonable" when you just look at the numbers. We certainly have our reasons we love the hub motor.

 

[dogman dan]

Can't agree any more about get a bigger motor if you want to have a fun performance e bike.

Much will depend on what his "1000w" motor is. If it's the 9 continent type dd motor common in 1000w kits, it's a 500w motor. And like when I was doing it, it would tend to overheat fairly quick on 3000w.

The cooling holes did not slow the overheating enough to tell any difference, but just a tiny 1/8 inch hole let the smell out, so I could stop for a sec and take a whiff, then know if that particular ride was overheating it yet or not. For a race, or just a nice fast ride, keeping the battery at 72v 10 ah or less would mean it ran out just about the time I should stop, first doing a cool down ride to save the halls. But off road riding, particularly deep sand or very steep hills could melt a motor in 15 min in hot weather. Obviously, you can't ride in the sand and dirt with big holes in your motor covers.

To save that type of motor, I'd run 1500w all summer, then 3000w only when it got below 80F for the high temp of the day. If you have those 500w rated motors laying around, its sure fun to melt them. I was getting them free to test them to destruction, and it was fun.

 

[DogDipstick]

I'd suggest statorade, its an effective mod that wont leak, because ATF or other oils will leak.

“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.” -Inigo Montoya,

Everyone says " ATF will leak, buy Statoraid at 1000x MARKUP by the mL"

ATF never leaked out my hubbie, for I sealed it well. So well, in fact, water cannot get out. Probally a liter of water in there right now. ( I drained the ATF, left it empty once.. but water creeps down the phase lines I think) ATF oil? Never ever ever dripped a single drop. I know people who fill them up to the axle on E-Moto ( qs273 bikes in real stree t legal motorcycle frames) and push 800A+ controllers..

ATF was not gentle on my bearing though, I think. Something is going wrong there, after 10k miles on my hubbie. Needs new bearings. Maybe the ATF wrecked the seals, I dont know.... that, or the freezing water in the hub. Wags like a puppy dog ( moves 1/4-3/8 inch) at speed. Wiggle wiggle.

Dont use Silicone, or an RTV, gasket maker. Use Loctite 504 or similar gasket making anaerobic. Holds 300psi+ upon assembly. No wait, never fail. OEM gasket maker for all Porsche engines.

 

[SafeDiscDancing]

We certainly have our reasons we love the hub motor.

My 3 pound 3 horsepower motor runs with a #219 chain direct to the rear wheel.

It's a separate chain from the pedal chain... more like the gas powered China 50cc kit bikes.

So you are at 33 pounds which would translate to roughly 33 horsepower. (assuming all is equal)

I can lift my ebike pretty easily as it weighs maybe 70 lbs overall... not sure.

My "guess" would be you have an "over 100 lbs" ebike?

All I'm saying is that as ebike performance goes to do the 28 mph top speeds for Class 3 level you can "get er done" at 3 pounds.

 

[DogDipstick]

My "guess" would be you have an "over 100 lbs" ebike?

My bike is 80 lbs with 8,000w peak.

 

[SafeDiscDancing]

My bike is 80 lbs with 8,000w peak.

I have focused on efficiency and heat reduction and have never tried to find out what limits my motor could really pull.

At 50 volts and 50 amps it "seems" based on the Grin Motor Simulator to be running near 90% efficiency across a range going up to about 8% slope then I start to worry because by 10% is starts to choke.

At 60 amps and running Sensorless I get into sychronization problems so I pulled back from that. Once I managed to get the motor up to speed it pulled the 3000 watts without complaint.

One of these days I'll add some Sensors and then crank up the amps and maybe get better than 24,000 ERPM out of it.

Half the time as it is I'm looking over my shoulder worried I'll get into trouble just doing the fun I do now.

My retirement community is limited to 25 mph on all the roads... but with massively steep hills the variety is good.

In other words in my situation 70 mph doesn't do me any benefit.

I'm geared to hit the Class 3 28 mph top speed as exactly as I can.

And to go outside the gates of the community means I need to be let back in again which means a line of cars sometimes.

 

[Chalo]

ATF never leaked out my hubbie, for I sealed it well. So well, in fact, water cannot get out. Probally a liter of water in there right now. ( I drained the ATF, left it empty once.. but water creeps down the phase lines I think)

No drip loop?