Thinking about building a 2kw electric bike.. HELP?

[zoomzoom22]

Hey guys! New around! but defiantly tried to do a good bit of reading before posting...

Now i'm cruising around on an R. MArtin MiPower, and an ADDICTED but it didnt take long to get tired of the 20MPH limit, so im now looking to upgrade, trying to spend around $3000, go 30mph and crush decent hills.

So I was originally thinking of getting a High Power Cycle but after reading around it seems like I might just wanna build my own, or do you think i'd be ok as long as I got one using their new (assuming better) motor under 3000w?? (People seem to be saying their motors fry any higher at wattage..)


While I really dont want to see a bunch of wires, and would be willing to pay for it, I am pretty handy and have a decent set of tools.. So i think it could be possible for me to DIY..

Metal fabrication or welding is a no go tho...


So wants..

Spend - $3000
Go 30-35MPH
More torque orientation than speed
preferable range - around 40 miles
want key to turn bike on and off

What would be a good base bike for under $1000? Would be nice to go FS but can be happy with a hardtail..

Thinking of trying to go with the crystalyte X5 motor.. Anyone had issues with the fit or disc brake configuration??

Or would it be easier to just go with the 1000w hub kit from YesComUSA??

Probably wanna go 72v LiPo right? Any good controller or battery recommendations or sites for what im trying to do?? I know crystalyte sells some?

THANKS SO MUCH

Still reading around....

 

[zoomzoom22]

So seems like I wanna put an x5 motor on a 72v battery (20aH if possible) and use a 35-40 amp controller??

 

[wesnewell]

Please go to the User Control Panel, select Profile, and then enter your city, state/province, and country into the Location field (country minimum) and save it. This will help people help you. Example: Wylie, TX, USA. Without knowing what country you are in it's hard to make any recommendations. Thank you.

Standard 48v 1000W yescomusa kit will get you over 30mph on 14-15s lipo. But for a range of 40 miles at 30mph you will need at least 30ah of battery, maybe more. Get a bike with steel swing arms and/or dropouts. Put on some 2.125-2.5" tires and you're in business. All this can be done for ~$1000 if you know what you're doing.

 

[zoomzoom22]

ooo THANK YOU


That sounds like EXACTLY what i'm wanting to do.. Hows the torque of the 1000w yescomUSA kit? Good for decent off road? How would you say it compares to a BMC or C-lyte?

I see the controller comes with that kit? Is that the controller you would rec? I cant seem to find the amp rating of it either...


Steel swing arms?? Any good ideas for bikes that have those?


Maybe I dont need 40 mile range.. espically at 30mph.. ill probably just try and go 20aH or above and im sure that should meet my needs.


Thanks for any and all links and help!! Your sig is actually one of the main things inspiring me to not buy a HPC

 

[mvly]

$1000 for lipo and charging setup.

Go for 72V if you want to keep current draw down. Otherwise 48V seems fine for up to 35mph.

To be honest it will be difficult to keep the cost down if you are planning to go 40miles at 30mph.

Also you need to factor in the cost of the bike and wiring harness.

Get the ht3525 and use 74 lipo on lyen controller and you should get what you want with great hill climbing power.

Charging lipo can be a mess. Hopefully you can figure it out.

 

[dogman dan]

Now that I see boulder CO, I know you want to crush mountains, not hills.

Are you stuck on 26" wheels, because if not, then a 20" wheel, clyte HT motor, and 72v 40 amps through a 12 fet Lyens will do the trick.

Hmm, did I just describe Justins newest idea? http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_edgerunner.php

Well, not exactly, because it comes with an ezee. But that's the frame, or something very similar, if you want to go crush independence pass. A bit over your budget, but that is what you want to duplicate. Welding no go, but you can hire a small bit cheap. Easy to make a frankenbike with a 20" rear wheel. This is the thread that got me going on the idea.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9673&hilit=do+it+yourself+longtail
Mine turned out great, and believe me, I can't weld for shit.

Another option for just buy it, then add a stronger motor later.
http://www.juicedriders.com/

In this case, you'd perhaps want to add a rear motor, but I'm not sure how suited this frame would be for that.
If you want dirt, then opinions vary. Some just pound it with a huge motor, others like me take it slower with slow winding motors that don't immediately die in a 26" wheel. Others do 20" wheels. I crush dirt pretty good with a 9c 2812 in 26" wheel. But If I go to real mountains, the grades are too long and sustained above 20%, and I melt the motor. I just did 70 miles of 10% in the last two days with no problems, but I was street riding the last mountians in NM not on fire at the moment. Not the dirt.

 

[wesnewell]

Info on yescomusa kits;
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49638

 

[parajared]

I have played with a temp sensor and cycle analyst and pushed a bunch of these "1000 watt" motors past the 2k watt mark. I judge a motor's "max wattage" point at the point it can take no more power and exceed 110c and no less power and drop below 110c.

Magic pie 2: 2500 watts
9c, 2810, 2805 and MXUS: 2700 watts
Crystalyte HS: 2900

All of these motor work fine at high wattages so I imagine the beefier crystalyte 5x will work even better. Keep in mind for steep slow technical trail riding that 5x will kinda suck compared to what a mid drive can do at a fraction of the wattage consumption.

72 volts is my favorite voltage, and I commute daily frequenting 2000 watts without exceeding 110 C.

 

[parajared]

Even though dogman has pretty much nailed it, it was the way he said it a while back that really stuck with me.

dogman
The crux of the problem is not so much how much power a motor can handle, but how much wasted power it is asked to handle. So the same motor may overheat in 5 min or 5 hours, all while running at less than 1000w. Lug it, and it will melt.

Several approaches are used to lower the gear ratio, or simulate it if lower RPM use is going to be expected. A smaller rim will allow an actual lower gear for a hubmotor.

 

[dogman dan]

Took a lot of beating up by John in CR for me to get that one.

I fell so in love with the 2810 winding, then even more in love with 2812. But if I feed my 2812 3000w long enough, (which takes a grade above 15 degrees) it will melt it. My local riding involves hills less than half a mile long in general, but when I go to real mountains and ride steep horse trails I kill a motor. Part of the problem with those trails is they are so rocky that you can't hardly hold onto the bike above 10 mph. Too slow, making heat. The thing I have liked about the slow winding 9c motors, is that grades of only 10% won't make them pull near 3000w. No, you don't fly up the hills, but you do grind up them wasting less of your range.

But to really solve the hill problem, a 20" wheel is a proven winning starting point. It actually IS a lower gear, and actually does increase torque.

It will be interesting to see how my 26" longtail handles really big mountains. So far, I've only done 3 miles of 7% with it. It has a 5304 clyte, and 48v 40 amps of power. The bike weighs 130 pounds with a full battery load. The 5304 of course, can eat 2000w all day just about. Too bad they don't sell them anymore.

 

[Tommy L]

Not loosing site of the $3k available and the fact that you'd like to pull technical stuff and grades. The "DARK" side, which is Mid-drive might be what
you are after. Matt Shumaker has these. He is also a forum member: recumpence. I'm seriously considering this for my next build. Not cheap, but
has advantages over Hub Motors especially for off road use and having a bike handle well for technical riding. It keeps the Wheel weight low and puts
the weight on the frame, which can make the bike more nimble.

http://www.recumpence.net/default.htm


Tommy L sends.....

 

[Drunkskunk]

$3000 is a healthy budget. But there are a few issues to adress. First. what kind of terrain are you planning to ride? A bike that is mostly cruising the streets is hgoing to be diffrent from one that can also cruis a light hiking trail. And one ment for backwoods exploring and runing up the side of a mountian.. won't fit your budget...

The 5xxx motors are discontinued. You may be able to get one used. They certianly are beasts, both in weight and performance, but may be overkill depending on what you plan to do with this.

40 miles range.. Now do you plan to ride 40 miles? or do you want that as your maximum possable? That makes a big difference.
Also, 40 miles range at 30mph is going to be a hella huge battery, while at 20mph, it can be 2.5 times smaller. So it would help to know what your expectations are.

 

[zoomzoom22]

Hey guys Thanks so much for all the replys..!!


I defiantly think I was probably originally thinking a little bigger than needed.

Honestly i dont need to go 40 miles for range, especially at 30mph. Either 40-30 miles at 20mph, or maybe even 20 miles at 30 mph is totally acceptable. And preferable if it will cut weight!

Yes I am in boulder, but i'm really not looking for a mountain climbing bike.. this is really more for road commuting at 30-35mph (gym,store,ect.) as well as what most hardcore riders im sure would call "light offroad".. Mainly dirt paths thru woods and pastures with small grades and a few rocks. Basically openspace parks around where people walk there dogs..

But I really cant see me hitting any grades over 7-10% for more than 30mins max, and that would be paved.

What currently available motor do you think would best for 30-35mph top speed and a bunch of torque?

Also on the 20 in tire... That might be a good idea, but most used bikes I would want to convert would probably come 26, would you really think 20 to be necessary?


I should probably mention that i'm taking this bike to Burning Man in Aug. So maybe it would be nice to try and buy one with a warranty But im sure almost any bike will cruise around there fine... its completely flat, but im still wondering how hard the dust will be on the motor... You electric builders would really appreciate some of the crazy electric art vehicles out there!



Lastly.. is it possible to change the controller on my current R. Martin Mipower?? It has a 36v 14ah battery, and a 500w 270rpm ultra motor.. Obviously to increase speed? not sure on current controller but i know it locks out past 20mph. It would be nice to even bump it up 5amps, even if i get a new 2000w bike, my roommate wants the Mipower Electric addicts!

Someone wanna build me a 2000w 30-35mph bike for a 2-2.5 grand?? :lol:

Thanks guys!!!

 

[Tommy L]

But I really cant see me hitting any grades over 7-10% for more than 30mins max, and that would be paved.

Lastly.. is it possible to change the controller on my current R. Martin Mipower?? It has a 36v 14ah battery, and a 500w 270rpm ultra motor.. Obviously to increase speed? not sure on current controller but i know it locks out past 20mph. It would be nice to even bump it up 5amps, even if i get a new 2000w bike, my roommate wants the Mipower Electric addicts!

Someone wanna build me a 2000w 30-35mph bike for a 2-2.5 grand?? :lol:

Thanks guys!!!

oh, that last line was funny! Then you'd be missing all the fun

As for upgrading the other bike controller, you need to look at the battery and what it is capable of. By changing the controller, you may have to
parallel another pack to ensure that you keep the stress off the batteries. Hammering the pack will cause a sooner death for sure.

I personally do not have long steep grades. Dogman will most certainly comment on that, but from what I've read over the years, you will burn up
a hub motor for 30min of 7-10% grades I do believe. I haven't used a gear hub, but Ypedal suggests that too much off road with a Gear Hub will
destroy it. So again, based on your budget, mid drive. And maybe based on your sustained speeds, moped rims and tires too! :wink:

http://www.recumpence.net/drives.htm

Tommy L sends.....

 

[dogman dan]

Actually only 30 min of 7-10% is not a big challenge for most basic direct drive hubmotors when you give them 48v. In 26" wheel. It's not "crushing" the hills though. That made me think independence pass type roads.

I'd say go to Grin Cyclery, and get the HT version of the crystalyte. It should do at least 25 mph on 48v. Then if you want to go faster, then get a 72v controller for it, but limit amps to 2000w, so you don't run too hot and cook it. 72v 20 amps is 1500w, so a 25-30 amps controller would be ok.

I could build you a bike, if you could handle paying in advance, and meeting me in perhaps Albuquerque to deliver it.

This is for sale, but has been spoken for by a guy who hasn't paid for it. A LOT less than $3000.

It would come with a 72v 40 amps controller, that can take a direct plug in cycleanalyst for amp limiting. In the picture, it has a 2807 9 continent motor, capable of just touching 40 mph. For climbing hills, I'd recommend limiting amps to 30 amps, which would still do about 35mph. You would have to supply your own battery, the box is set up to carry at least 72v 15 ah of lipo. Eventually, you could replace the motor with a better one, upgrade the fairly worn out front fork, etc. It's a solid old school steel MTB frame, that can handle power and speed. This bike has seen 50 mph with no tank slappers.

$300 delivered to Albuquerque.

I could do similar for new stuff, but costing much more. I'd buy a new bike localy, order stuff from Grin, etc. Likely I'd want $300 just for my time.

 

[Tommy L]

Dogman!

How many teeth on that chain ring? Looks awesome!

Tommy L sends.....

 

[zoomzoom22]

Actually only 30 min of 7-10% is not a big challenge for most basic direct drive hubmotors when you give them 48v. In 26" wheel. It's not "crushing" the hills though. That made me think independence pass type roads.

I'd say go to Grin Cyclery, and get the HT version of the crystalyte. It should do at least 25 mph on 48v. Then if you want to go faster, then get a 72v controller for it, but limit amps to 2000w, so you don't run too hot and cook it. 72v 20 amps is 1500w, so a 25-30 amps controller would be ok.

I could build you a bike, if you could handle paying in advance, and meeting me in perhaps Albuquerque to deliver it.

This is for sale, but has been spoken for by a guy who hasn't paid for it. A LOT less than $3000.

It would come with a 72v 40 amps controller, that can take a direct plug in cycleanalyst for amp limiting. In the picture, it has a 2807 9 continent motor, capable of just touching 40 mph. For climbing hills, I'd recommend limiting amps to 30 amps, which would still do about 35mph. You would have to supply your own battery, the box is set up to carry at least 72v 15 ah of lipo. Eventually, you could replace the motor with a better one, upgrade the fairly worn out front fork, etc. It's a solid old school steel MTB frame, that can handle power and speed. This bike has seen 50 mph with no tank slappers.

$300 delivered to Albuquerque.

I could do similar for new stuff, but costing much more. I'd buy a new bike localy, order stuff from Grin, etc. Likely I'd want $300 just for my time.

All very helpful thank you!!

Ill defiantly keep you in mind for a build as well as that other bike... the only thing is id prefer to not drive.. I would love to buy her if we could crate ship it for close to the same as gas for my F150 round trip to NM... Think thats possible?


Actually maybe a mid drive would be best for me, it would be nice to have the motor up and out of the dust when i'm riding on the playa, as well as i know theyre good for torque...

Does anyone use 20in tires on a mid drive? is there any disadvantages?? I know they must spin at a higher RMP that the 26in at the same speed.. does that do anything bad to the controller or motor?

Is there such thing as a prebuilt mid drive frame??


I'm gonna go read more on mid drives...

Thanks guys

 

[zoomzoom22]

After a more in depth look I think I'd rather mess with mid-drive later on in my ebiking life..

For now I think ive got it mostly narrowed down...


I found a decent trek fuel 100 FS MTB for $500 I think im gonna get, or something similar..

Then im gonna use one of the Grin kits

EDIT: REAR 26 Inch Crystalyte HS35 Kit (HS3540 hub, 25A Infineon Controller,Throttle, Cycle Analyst).

and this battery http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/the-48V-LiFePO4-Battery-Packs/Categories

48V 20AH V2.5 LiFePO4 Battery Pack
Light Weight: 9.90 kg / 21.90 lbs
Small Size: 195x210x150 mm / 7.7x8.3x5.9 inches
Applications: E-Bike, Electric Bike, E-Scooter, Electric Scooter
for use on up to 1200W motors
Extremely Safe Chemistry
Extraordinary Long Cycle Life
No Memory Effect



My only main questions are is the 25A controller sufficient at 48v for 30-35mph and good torque?? or should I upgrade to the 35A for just a little more money?? Or would 35A of 48v fry a HS35??

There is also the crown motor that weights double... but i'm thinking its probably not necessary right??

Also how sketcky are the PING batteries at charging?? Ive heard mixed things about Lipo.. I have no choice but to charge inside my house, and probably will have it built to where its easiest to just haul the whole bike inside to charge.. I plan to just get the charger thru them. Also if I upgrade to a faster (5a07a) charger wouldl that increase the fire risk?

Shout out if im missing anything...!!!


THANKS LOOKS LIKE IM TAKING THE DIVE INTO DIY

 

[Drunkskunk]

Good bike. Some problems with the motor though. You will be comiting suicide to put that motor on an aluminum suspension fork. Resaerch fork failures, you'll see its a common problem with even smaller motors. The dropouts aren't strong unough to handle the mottor, and the result of a front wheel coming off at speed can be fatal. Get a rear motor, and use torque arms.

Get the 35 amp controller. More Amps means more watts for the motor, means more torque for you. Also get the CA, so you can limit the amps if you notice the motor getting hot.

Ping battery is LiFePo4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate), not LiCo (Lithium Cobalt). NOT the same thing as "Lipo". The Ping LiFePO4 batteries are fairly safe to charge indoors with no specal precautions.

 

[Ykick]

Total waste to front motor that bike. Rear 100%.

 

[zoomzoom22]

WOW Im dumb... front motor was TOTAL TYPO (more of a copy and paste error). I have never been thinking of a front setup.

Defiantly was thinking rear all day... is that bike safe for REAR?? Anyone know any pros or cons on the fuel bikes?

defiantly was thinking torque arms too.


ok sounds like 35A is the way to go, and was defiantly gonna get the CA, so that sounds good.


Is the HS35 gonna handle 35A x 48v? 1600w?? Or should i go up to the crown motor?

Good to know the battery differences, I think im defiantly gonna go with that PING 48v 20aH!!


Thanks alot

 

[dogman dan]

HT motor. Not the HS.

You won't be allowed to haul ass on the playa, and you won't climb hills at home so great with the HS in a 26" wheel. The motor can handle 1600w fine, but not if you stall it climbing hills and make 1500w of it into heat. The slower motor will stall less, and be much less likely to melt climbing big mountain. On short hills, this heating is relatively harmless, but it cuts your range. Same thing will happen at stop signs, the HS will cost you range big time.

Otherwise looks pretty good! You don't need anybody to build it for you, you can do it.

If you go with a ping, you need to limit to 30 amps, and even that is a bit on the high side. You can do that with the CA. 48v 20 ah will be too big to carry on that bike, unless you get it in a split pack, to put in panniers, half on each side.

 

[zoomzoom22]

HT motor. Not the HS.

You won't be allowed to haul ass on the playa, and you won't climb hills at home so great with the HS in a 26" wheel. The motor can handle 1600w fine, but not if you stall it climbing hills and make 1500w of it into heat. The slower motor will stall less, and be much less likely to melt climbing big mountain. On short hills, this heating is relatively harmless, but it cuts your range. Same thing will happen at stop signs, the HS will cost you range big time.

Otherwise looks pretty good! You don't need anybody to build it for you, you can do it.

If you go with a ping, you need to limit to 30 amps, and even that is a bit on the high side. You can do that with the CA. 48v 20 ah will be too big to carry on that bike, unless you get it in a split pack, to put in panniers, half on each side.

Does grin sell the HT? All I see is HS?? Where else is it available?

Ya I know their are speed limits on the playa, but still being able to go fast and have torque will be nice in deep playa and if i get bogged down in deep dust, I'm defiantly not gonna zoom around like an ass tho.

Would you recommend somewhere else besides PING? Why is it essential to limit to 30a? You really dont think I can fit the 20ah in that or most MTB frame? Its only Small Size: 195x210x150 mm / 7.7x8.3x5.9 inches

Should I go with 15 then?


Thanks!!

 

[dogman dan]

Hmm, I assumed that Grin was offering the slower motor. They used to offer several windings in the 9c stuff. HS would be fine for most.

FWIW, I'm the kook here that likes slower motor windings. I really like the crazy slow winding motors nobody sells anymore. 99% of the rest just want the highest possible top speed.

The HS won't fail to climb a steep hill, it will just tend to use more energy doing it.

Also FWIW, I have never ridden an HS or HT bike, so I can't say from experience how it compares to an HT. I just know slower motors work well in mountains, and stop and go riding.

 

[dogman dan]

Looking at the simulator at grin, it appears that the HS motor is similar in winding speed to a 9 continent 2807.

So not really a "fast" motor so much as an average fast. It should tackle 7% no problem, and 10% with pedaling. I've taken the 2807 up big mountain passes with grades up to 10%.

Since you want your cake and eat it too, (fast and able to climb) the HS motor is not such a bad compromise. Give it 2kw, and it won't seem slow off a stop sign either. At less than 1 kw, it would be a bit sluggish, but not at 2 kw.

Once on the playa, you will be riding around using 150w not 1500. It won't matter much what winding you have on the playa really, but a slower motor would be better for towing a trailer made from a couch. 8)