This is how A123 care about quality control

[Joseph C.]

"Whatever" you are either clueless or trolling.

I think the answer to that is his handle - 'whatever' is the word of choice for the passive aggressive.

 

[dnmun]

i thought it was whining valley girl talk when she doesn't succeed in manipulating someone into following her directions.

 

[tomjasz]

wb9k, I think you are handling this fiasco just fine. As you have stated, you are not authorized to publish total company information. Some of these guys go way beyond what is necessary info. Seems like they would rather squash the availability of A123 cells being sold to the NON OEM public.

Some of these people may not be aware of the Victpower fiasco, where you first appeared on this forum, to try to assess the recycled Fisker packs.

Thank you for all the info you have made available.

Harold in CR

Ditto!

 

[tomjasz]

Excellent porn.
Thanks!

I'm scouting for more. For those who added to the discussion thanks, I learned a lot.

 

[Punx0r]

I just stumbled across the webpage of what looks like the OEM pack supplier for the Nissan Leaf: http://www.eco-aesc-lb.com/en/product/liion_ev/

Note the advertising image for a bare pouch cell:

 

[999zip999]

Now does this cell have defects ? The ripple or slack on the right side ?

 

[oatnet]

With that, I hope we can put this all behind us.

wb9k you handled this issue and its characters gracefully, a123 should be proud of how you caught an issue and demonstrated their commitment to quality. Thanks for being on E:S!

-JD

 

[flathill]

I just stumbled across the webpage of what looks like the OEM pack supplier for the Nissan Leaf: http://www.eco-aesc-lb.com/en/product/liion_ev/

Note the advertising image for a bare pouch cell:

that picture has been on the site since before the first leaf was ever sold. probably a reject cell from the pilot production run was given to the marketing dept. hopefully they have improved since then. not a very good counterpoint as nissan is having to replace battery in 1 out of ever 12 leafs sold so far under warranty, and most of those cars were from the pacific northwest, not texas and arizona (before lizard pack). there is a reason why aesc (joint venture between nissan and nec) is very likely going to be shut down. renault (nissan sister company) has already made the move to lg chem. the nissan engineers are very angry and want to keep it in house but management knows they cant compete with lg chem without redoing their whole line to reduce the reject rate. the are simply going to have to take a huge writedown or double down. i dont think they have the balls.

 

[burningwings]

Nissan, A123 ? Nissan in class action suit over bad batteries in Leaf. No way ! Panasonic and Tesla . I hate malfunctions ! Own 8 bad 38140's out of a 40 cell pack, at 30 cycles. "Jake it's China Town" . Rising Sun or Korea batteries ONLY !

 

[Joseph C.]

Nissan, A123 ? Nissan in class action suit over bad batteries in Leaf. No way ! Panasonic and Tesla . I hate malfunctions ! Own 8 bad 38140's out of a 40 cell pack, at 30 cycles. "Jake it's China Town" . Rising Sun or Korea batteries ONLY !

Nissan are going to sue themselves? That would be one for the record books. Nissan made their own batteries for the LEAF.

Renault, the senior partner in the Renault Nissan Alliance, had another guy, Pelata, clandestinely do a deal with LG chem to produce the battery for the Renault Zoe ZE instead of Nissan. This meant they would be able to get to market faster than Nissan.

Ghosn's number two at Nissan, Carlos Taveres, in response to Pelata, rushed the battery production before they were ready. PSA for some stupid reason now have him as CEO.

That's the real story behind the LEAF's problems. It's got nothing to do with A123 who manufacturer a completely different lithium chemistry.

Edit: Basically, two morons were responsible for Nissan's problems and both of them probably should have been kicked out of the door ages ago.

 

[Just2807]

Let's revive this

1st of all, wb9k is very generous regarding posts and his own will and free time to this community, he is not obligated. Defending his own (or some1else) reputation? Pure try for help? I won't go into that. It should be treated with respect.

2nd regarding Rimac team, i did some minor work with them and let me tell u, they have zillion times more potential. Where? In a primitive and corrupted country, NO. They certainly wouldn't blow Fisker situation, trust me.

3rd i have 0 business in economy, production or anything like that. Just poor eternal electrical engineering student (working as electrician) trying to build 3kW bike under 1000 €. It is possible if u consider i may have free pack (guess which pouches )

Expressing myself from a regular/average guy perspective. (yes i have urge, just like a woman)

-Since this is high value thing, topping on both performance and price, i would expect it to come in top shape too. (i am not defending/attacking anyone, pls let that be clear)
-I suspect this "thing" is produced/machined/developed/made/constructed by machines with high/low precision without some randomizing algorythms, therefore should be delivered (at the end of the production line) nearly identical to each other.
-Since it has some "explosive/hazardus" nature, being delivered with difference on each cell, doesn't give much to the safety feeling.
-I understand it has dynamic nature (i saw how are they made) but there should be some tolerances listed next to the product so situations like this (both for seller, buyer and maker) don't happen. Half of China would crashed the market probably Specs regarding difference, what is safe (or ok) and what isn't (i don't mean LVC and HVC by this etc...), differences with pictures, examples ...
-Same goes for different manufacturer dates... It' really gets fishy. Especially when u don't know how to read them. (thx for that 1 member who brainstormed it out and shared)

Obviously, bent, with bubbles, weird veins showing up on every 7th cell, unsymmetrical parts that should be symmetrical... It kinda bugs u Sure it's not perfect world but it doesn't leave much in trust from a regular perspective.

Regarding exports and "the middle guy" opening the box, leave A4 paper on top of every cell "bend/touch/compress and it will explode, catch on fire or whatever". Why write only "explosive, fragile" on box? (or whatever they stick on it) I am sure it will drastically reduce tempering with it if that should be the problem. At least in my country it would.

Main problem = not enough info! ! ! !
Other than here, i seriously don't know where would i even find all this tiny valuable infos about this and that regarding this item.
Sure, wiki... :\

 

[liveforphysics]

Let's revive this

1st of all, wb9k is very generous regarding posts and his own will and free time to this community, he is not obligated. Defending his own (or some1else) reputation? Pure try for help? I won't go into that. It should be treated with respect.

2nd regarding Rimac team, i did some minor work with them and let me tell u, they have zillion times more potential. Where? In a primitive and corrupted country, NO. They certainly wouldn't blow Fisker situation, trust me.

3rd i have 0 business in economy, production or anything like that. Just poor eternal electrical engineering student (working as electrician) trying to build 3kW bike under 1000 €. It is possible if u consider i may have free pack (guess which pouches )

Expressing myself from a regular/average guy perspective. (yes i have urge, just like a woman)

-Since this is high value thing, topping on both performance and price, i would expect it to come in top shape too. (i am not defending/attacking anyone, pls let that be clear)
-I suspect this "thing" is produced/machined/developed/made/constructed by machines with high/low precision without some randomizing algorythms, therefore should be delivered (at the end of the production line) nearly identical to each other.
-Since it has some "explosive/hazardus" nature, being delivered with difference on each cell, doesn't give much to the safety feeling.
-I understand it has dynamic nature (i saw how are they made) but there should be some tolerances listed next to the product so situations like this (both for seller, buyer and maker) don't happen. Half of China would crashed the market probably Specs regarding difference, what is safe (or ok) and what isn't (i don't mean LVC and HVC by this etc...), differences with pictures, examples ...
-Same goes for different manufacturer dates... It' really gets fishy. Especially when u don't know how to read them. (thx for that 1 member who brainstormed it out and shared)

Obviously, bent, with bubbles, weird veins showing up on every 7th cell, unsymmetrical parts that should be symmetrical... It kinda bugs u Sure it's not perfect world but it doesn't leave much in trust from a regular perspective.

Regarding exports and "the middle guy" opening the box, leave A4 paper on top of every cell "bend/touch/compress and it will explode, catch on fire or whatever". Why write only "explosive, fragile" on box? (or whatever they stick on it) I am sure it will drastically reduce tempering with it if that should be the problem. At least in my country it would.

Main problem = not enough info! ! ! !
Other than here, i seriously don't know where would i even find all this tiny valuable infos about this and that regarding this item.
Sure, wiki... :\

Much of the industry is in it's infancy with respect to pouch cells, including shippers/inspectors etc. If you're saying folks open your shipments of cells and handle them, then they should replace every cell they handled. While it's possible they may not be damaged by the person handling them, it's also almost impossible to know this or not without waiting months with the cell instrumented to observe increased self-discharge rates and gassing. Pouch cells should be shipped with a notification inside and outside the box that says they are damaged by handling (like precision optical lenses or whatever) and should be inspected by untrained goons only by going through x-ray chambers if they really feel the need.

 

[Just2807]

Yeah i agree, it's not exactly a chocolate bar. Very delicate stuff with almost 0 tolerance. Whats the only protection, a box sticker?