paultrafalgar
10 kW
Who needs lightning from the Town Clock, Doc? 
Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases
- Thread starter Doctorbass
- Start date
CGameProgrammer
10 kW
The problem is I don't think anyone is even meeting the normal A123's max discharge rate, and I'm pretty sure nobody is even hitting their 4C charge rate. If we were, we'd be fully charging our packs in 15 minutes. But we're all using multiple cells in parallel and charging them at only 2-5 amps usually, so that's like 0.25C.
Toshi
10 kW
for those of you who might care to read the actual article here is the PDF of the Nature article's full text.
https://www.yousendit.com/download/U0d6a3NaMGtlM1JjR0E9PQ
https://www.yousendit.com/download/U0d6a3NaMGtlM1JjR0E9PQ
dogman dan
1 PW
For some reason I'm visualizing a bms that is twice the size of the battery. But maybe you could have that be part of the charging station. It would take a good one to charge at that rate and not explode the battery before it could shut off. Maybe the car could tell the charger how much it needed to get to an 80% charge, and then just run that much in? After some getting used to, I think a 30 minuite charge would be somthing most people could live with, especially if it could be down where you are eating lunch, or shopping for a few minuites.
dnmun
1 PW
thanks toshi for the paper. i almost wanna email the author and ask him to post up the supplements here. this is so remarkably simple and well conceptualized principal that i feel their claims of producing superior energy density to super capacitors is entirely justified.
i learned a lot from reading it which i had only halfway understood, if anybody else is kinda academically interested we could yak about the experiment here.
in simplest terms, they had this idea that 'smoothing' the surface of the nanocrystals which make up the cathode matrix by creating an amorphous 'glassy' surface would allow the lithium ions to skip across it easily in order to reach the 010 orientation in the crystal, where it can easily enter then into the openings in the crystal where it is intercalated to allow the electron to flow the other way through the bulk material of the cathode.
what they did was take 'off stoichiometry' amounts of iron and phosphorus when mixing the lifepo4 to be sintered. when the cathodic material reached a high enuff temp, there is phase separation of the phoshorus rich glassy materials from the crystalline lifepo4. then the surface became amorphous (non crystalline) even though the bulk is crystalline lifepo4, and the phosphorus rich amorphous material still had some iron but not bound into a lip2o7 crystal(as i remember), so the amorphous surface did not interfere with the movement of the lithium ions to the 010 orientation in the crystal where it could penetrate into the bulk. and the sweet part is that this amorphous structure is very conductive too and not a strong insulator, by comparison to the bulk crystalline lifepo4 which is only marginally conductive itself. that means the current can be carried easily out of the bulk and through contact with other crystalline cathodic granules in the matrix.
the xray spectroscopy shows the big lines for the lifepo4 and where the other crystals appear as the sintering temp is raised and the materials separate. the mossbauer spectroscopy is a technique for determining the forces holding the iron in the crystal, which tells them what the iron compound may be, in this case an iron phosphide. you can use a radioactive isotope of iron called iron 57, which has a gamma ray decay often enuff that you can use it experimentally to determine the frequency of the oscillation of the iron in the lattice, and from that the inter atomic forces. different crystalline structures of the iron have different inter atomic bond energies which can be measured using the 'zero phonon' rebound of the lattice when the gamma ray is released. i used iron 57 for the source when i did my thesis using mossbauer spectroscopy to estimate the force constants in crystalline iridium, rhodium, and Be, 30 years ago now.
this was a very elegant idea, and i think is right up there with the stanford paper on silicon nanowires.
to reach the high currents, they had to use an excess of carbon in their little swagelock cell, so they could conduct the current, and they talked about how that was what limited the energy density, but a problem which disappears with the silicon nanowires for the anode. the great thing about silicon nanowires is that they can be doped to increase conductivity. when making semiconductors you are always fighting to keep the silicon from getting doped unless you want it to conduct as in the drain and source. so once chiu can get his work into a manufacturable anode, and this cathode material can be created with the amorphous surface and repeatably, we should have cells with at least 10 times the currently available discharge and charge profiles. maybe 4-5 years at most. not including newer electrolyte formulations which could appear, or other ideas along this direction not yet published.
what we worry about as internal resistance is really a diffusion problem for the electrolyte, carrying the li ion through the separator to the crystalline cathodic material and into the bulk of the crystal, and this treatment just increases the mobility of the li ion when it reaches the surface of the crystal so it gets 'sucked' into the crystalline bulk through the 010 orientation rather than 'hanging up' on the other crystalline facets of lifepo4 on the surface of the nanocrystal, because there are none, it is all amorphous on the surface.
i learned a lot from reading it which i had only halfway understood, if anybody else is kinda academically interested we could yak about the experiment here.
in simplest terms, they had this idea that 'smoothing' the surface of the nanocrystals which make up the cathode matrix by creating an amorphous 'glassy' surface would allow the lithium ions to skip across it easily in order to reach the 010 orientation in the crystal, where it can easily enter then into the openings in the crystal where it is intercalated to allow the electron to flow the other way through the bulk material of the cathode.
what they did was take 'off stoichiometry' amounts of iron and phosphorus when mixing the lifepo4 to be sintered. when the cathodic material reached a high enuff temp, there is phase separation of the phoshorus rich glassy materials from the crystalline lifepo4. then the surface became amorphous (non crystalline) even though the bulk is crystalline lifepo4, and the phosphorus rich amorphous material still had some iron but not bound into a lip2o7 crystal(as i remember), so the amorphous surface did not interfere with the movement of the lithium ions to the 010 orientation in the crystal where it could penetrate into the bulk. and the sweet part is that this amorphous structure is very conductive too and not a strong insulator, by comparison to the bulk crystalline lifepo4 which is only marginally conductive itself. that means the current can be carried easily out of the bulk and through contact with other crystalline cathodic granules in the matrix.
the xray spectroscopy shows the big lines for the lifepo4 and where the other crystals appear as the sintering temp is raised and the materials separate. the mossbauer spectroscopy is a technique for determining the forces holding the iron in the crystal, which tells them what the iron compound may be, in this case an iron phosphide. you can use a radioactive isotope of iron called iron 57, which has a gamma ray decay often enuff that you can use it experimentally to determine the frequency of the oscillation of the iron in the lattice, and from that the inter atomic forces. different crystalline structures of the iron have different inter atomic bond energies which can be measured using the 'zero phonon' rebound of the lattice when the gamma ray is released. i used iron 57 for the source when i did my thesis using mossbauer spectroscopy to estimate the force constants in crystalline iridium, rhodium, and Be, 30 years ago now.
this was a very elegant idea, and i think is right up there with the stanford paper on silicon nanowires.
to reach the high currents, they had to use an excess of carbon in their little swagelock cell, so they could conduct the current, and they talked about how that was what limited the energy density, but a problem which disappears with the silicon nanowires for the anode. the great thing about silicon nanowires is that they can be doped to increase conductivity. when making semiconductors you are always fighting to keep the silicon from getting doped unless you want it to conduct as in the drain and source. so once chiu can get his work into a manufacturable anode, and this cathode material can be created with the amorphous surface and repeatably, we should have cells with at least 10 times the currently available discharge and charge profiles. maybe 4-5 years at most. not including newer electrolyte formulations which could appear, or other ideas along this direction not yet published.
what we worry about as internal resistance is really a diffusion problem for the electrolyte, carrying the li ion through the separator to the crystalline cathodic material and into the bulk of the crystal, and this treatment just increases the mobility of the li ion when it reaches the surface of the crystal so it gets 'sucked' into the crystalline bulk through the 010 orientation rather than 'hanging up' on the other crystalline facets of lifepo4 on the surface of the nanocrystal, because there are none, it is all amorphous on the surface.
olaf-lampe
10 kW
Hi Doc,
if you want to test your CBA with 1000A, you don't have to wait for A123...
Look at this baby:
http://www.gaia-akku-online.de/SEITEN/7.5_Ah_UHP_341450.lasso?-Token.Menu=Produkte&-Token.Link=Link1
BTW: this is the same cell former Formula1 driver Heinz-Harald Frenzen uses in his hybrid race car Gumpert Apollo
-Olaf
if you want to test your CBA with 1000A, you don't have to wait for A123...
Look at this baby:
http://www.gaia-akku-online.de/SEITEN/7.5_Ah_UHP_341450.lasso?-Token.Menu=Produkte&-Token.Link=Link1
BTW: this is the same cell former Formula1 driver Heinz-Harald Frenzen uses in his hybrid race car Gumpert Apollo
-Olaf
Doctorbass
100 GW
olaf-lampe said:
Thanks.. I know this compagny.. I posted somethink about that here in 2007... they are used by military... incredible anyway !!!
could you imagine a car with these battery... few Megawatt of juice availlable!!! in the size of a box that fit in the trunk!!
Just dot imagine the consequeces of an accident with this car and 450VDC and up to 10 000A.. the short generated by the plasma could make sun burns to the passenger !!! and giant fireballs!!!
Doc
Toshiba has quadrupled the output density of its Super Charge ion Battery, or SCiB....
http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSN1337967720090413
Previous specs:
SCiB Cell
Nominal Voltage 2.4 volt
Nominal Capacity 4.2 ampere hours (Ah)
Size Approx. 62 x 95 x 13mm
Weight Approx. 150 grams
Anyone ready for - Too many choices !!!
http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSN1337967720090413
Previous specs:
SCiB Cell
Nominal Voltage 2.4 volt
Nominal Capacity 4.2 ampere hours (Ah)
Size Approx. 62 x 95 x 13mm
Weight Approx. 150 grams
Anyone ready for - Too many choices !!!
dogman dan
1 PW
Cool, except that the plug for that fast a charge will get a bit heavy, as will the other end in the car. So charge time won't be 90 seconds unless you want to tote around a 200 pound receptacle.
MitchJi
10 MW
Hi,
That might be a better bet for Ebikes.
So right now "Toshiba now makes 150,000 SCiBs a month" and we can't buy them.
So the bottom linie is that this fall they will be producing about 15x as many batteries of superior quality and we probably won't be able to buy those either
That might be a better bet for Ebikes.
So right now "Toshiba now makes 150,000 SCiBs a month" and we can't buy them.
So the bottom linie is that this fall they will be producing about 15x as many batteries of superior quality and we probably won't be able to buy those either
StevenR
100 W
Cheer up - 150,000 a month probably doesn't cover their laptops or MID's or whatever Toshiba product they are putting them in. They just got burned by a recall of Sony laptop batteries that caught fire (no pun intended - it just happened) and are using their own that they trust. Toshiba products have been bullet proof in my experience - my laptops are still running and go obsolete before they quit. If they will ramp up production we will be able to buy them and may be able to do so shortly as they come up as replacement parts for whatever they are in. I will search the Toshiba sites and see if they show up on a parts list somewhere. It is hard to think of a more expensive way to buy a device than as a replacement part for a consumer electronics product...
MitchJi
10 MW
Hi,
Their current batteries are being used or slated to be used in Ebikes:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/09/toshiba-scib-li.html
I doubt you can buy them and if you can I bet the price is obnoxiously high.
Their current batteries are being used or slated to be used in Ebikes:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/09/toshiba-scib-li.html
I doubt you can buy them and if you can I bet the price is obnoxiously high.
Jerome Daoust
100 W
dogman dan
1 PW
Funny they think 20 ah is too big for bikes. People need to realize we don't particularly want to be limited to 10 mile round trips on ebikes. Of course, we might not be able to afford the 20's.
chet
100 W
The new Schwinn has these batteries.
dogman dan
1 PW
same chem as the Toshiba Scib batt... heavier and larger volume than LiFePo4 , lower operating voltage per cell too...
tailwind
100 W
The batteries are from Altairnano.
Nominal voltage 2.3V. Not as energy dense as LiFePO4.
They have some fact sheets for their 11Ah and 50Ah batteries on the web site.
Great batteries, but I think the company is more interested in stationary power applications these days.
Links from Autobloggreen
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/05/08/altairnano-still-in-the-game-for-phoenix-motorcars/
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/04/30/phoenix-motorcars-files-for-chapter-11/
Greg
Nominal voltage 2.3V. Not as energy dense as LiFePO4.
They have some fact sheets for their 11Ah and 50Ah batteries on the web site.
Great batteries, but I think the company is more interested in stationary power applications these days.
Links from Autobloggreen
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/05/08/altairnano-still-in-the-game-for-phoenix-motorcars/
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/04/30/phoenix-motorcars-files-for-chapter-11/
Greg
TylerDurden
100 GW
Altair Nanotechnologies Ships Batteries to the U.S. Army
On Wednesday April 22, 2009, 7:30 am EDT
RENO, NV--(MARKET WIRE)--Apr 22, 2009 -- Altair Nanotechnologies Inc. (Altairnano) (NasdaqCM:ALTI - News), a leading provider of energy storage systems for clean, efficient power and energy management, announced today the shipment of 40 advanced battery systems in support of the Army's M119 105mm lightweight gun digitization program.
The battery development initiative, announced by Altairnano in August 2008, is part of a military testing program to demonstrate the use of Altairnano's advanced battery systems for improving performance, reliability, and safety attributes associated with M119 105mm gun batteries. Jim Shields, the Army's program manager indicated, "I am very excited about the capability offered by the Altairnano battery technology and look forward to conducting system level testing and delivering leap-ahead performance to our troops."
"Altairnano's advanced battery systems exhibit the widest operating temperature ranges and highest abuse tolerance of any lithium-ion battery available today," said Terry Copeland, president and CEO, Altairnano. "The projected long-life of the batteries is also an important attribute, which is expected to help the military replace batteries less often than shorter-lived, conventional lithium-ion batteries."
Engineering and software design for the M119 gun digitization program is being managed by the Armaments Research Development and Engineering Center (ARDEC) at Picatinny Arsenal, New Jersey. Testing of the recently shipped battery systems by the U.S. Army's Communications and Electronics Research, Engineering and Development Command (CERDEC) at Ft Monmouth, New Jersey is expected to continue through summer 2009. Once approved for the M119 105mm lightweight gun digitization program, the Altairnano battery systems could be offered for use throughout the military's M119 105mm inventory, which currently numbers around 850 howitzers.
The system designed for the U.S. Army features a 24 Volt/22 Amp Hour battery with an integrated battery management system (BMS). The battery has broad applications beyond the M119 program and could extend to other weapons platforms, advanced military vehicle designs, portable power and back-up power applications.
About Altair Nanotechnologies Inc.
Headquartered in Reno, Nevada with manufacturing in Anderson, Indiana, Altairnano is a leading provider of energy storage systems for clean, efficient power and energy management. Going beyond lithium ion, Altairnano's Lithium-Titanate based battery systems are among the highest performing and most scalable, with applications that include battery cells for military artillery, battery packs for hybrid vehicles and energy storage systems for large-scale stationary power services. For more information please visit Altairnano at www.altairnano.com.
Forward-Looking Statements
This release may contain forward-looking statements as well as historical information. Forward-looking statements, which are included in accordance with the "safe harbor" provisions of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995, may involve risks, uncertainties and other factors that may cause the company's actual results and performance in future periods to be materially different from any future results or performance suggested by the forward-looking statements in this release. These risks and uncertainties include, without limitation, the risks that development of the advanced lithium ion-based batteries and related products described herein will not be completed for technical, political, strategic or other reasons; that any products developed will not perform as expected in future testing or real-world applications; and that even if full commercialization occurs, product sales may be limited and costs associated with production may exceed revenues. In addition, other risks are identified in the company's most recent Annual Report on Form 10-K and Form 10-Q, as filed with the SEC. Such forward-looking statements speak only as of the date of this release. The company expressly disclaims any obligation to update or revise any forward-looking statements found herein to reflect any changes in company expectations or results or any change in events.
Contact:
For Additional Information:
Institutional Investors:
C. Robert Pedraza
Vice President, Corporate Strategy
Altair Nanotechnologies, Inc.
775.856.2500
Email Contact
Individual Investors:
Marty Tullio
Managing Member
McCloud Communications, LLC
949.553.9748
Email Contact
Media Relations:
Jeff Brunings
Director, Strategic Marketing
Altair Nanotechnologies, Inc.
775.856.2500
Email Contact
ALTI jumped 22% yesterday.
On Wednesday April 22, 2009, 7:30 am EDT
RENO, NV--(MARKET WIRE)--Apr 22, 2009 -- Altair Nanotechnologies Inc. (Altairnano) (NasdaqCM:ALTI - News), a leading provider of energy storage systems for clean, efficient power and energy management, announced today the shipment of 40 advanced battery systems in support of the Army's M119 105mm lightweight gun digitization program.
The battery development initiative, announced by Altairnano in August 2008, is part of a military testing program to demonstrate the use of Altairnano's advanced battery systems for improving performance, reliability, and safety attributes associated with M119 105mm gun batteries. Jim Shields, the Army's program manager indicated, "I am very excited about the capability offered by the Altairnano battery technology and look forward to conducting system level testing and delivering leap-ahead performance to our troops."
"Altairnano's advanced battery systems exhibit the widest operating temperature ranges and highest abuse tolerance of any lithium-ion battery available today," said Terry Copeland, president and CEO, Altairnano. "The projected long-life of the batteries is also an important attribute, which is expected to help the military replace batteries less often than shorter-lived, conventional lithium-ion batteries."
Engineering and software design for the M119 gun digitization program is being managed by the Armaments Research Development and Engineering Center (ARDEC) at Picatinny Arsenal, New Jersey. Testing of the recently shipped battery systems by the U.S. Army's Communications and Electronics Research, Engineering and Development Command (CERDEC) at Ft Monmouth, New Jersey is expected to continue through summer 2009. Once approved for the M119 105mm lightweight gun digitization program, the Altairnano battery systems could be offered for use throughout the military's M119 105mm inventory, which currently numbers around 850 howitzers.
The system designed for the U.S. Army features a 24 Volt/22 Amp Hour battery with an integrated battery management system (BMS). The battery has broad applications beyond the M119 program and could extend to other weapons platforms, advanced military vehicle designs, portable power and back-up power applications.
About Altair Nanotechnologies Inc.
Headquartered in Reno, Nevada with manufacturing in Anderson, Indiana, Altairnano is a leading provider of energy storage systems for clean, efficient power and energy management. Going beyond lithium ion, Altairnano's Lithium-Titanate based battery systems are among the highest performing and most scalable, with applications that include battery cells for military artillery, battery packs for hybrid vehicles and energy storage systems for large-scale stationary power services. For more information please visit Altairnano at www.altairnano.com.
Forward-Looking Statements
This release may contain forward-looking statements as well as historical information. Forward-looking statements, which are included in accordance with the "safe harbor" provisions of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995, may involve risks, uncertainties and other factors that may cause the company's actual results and performance in future periods to be materially different from any future results or performance suggested by the forward-looking statements in this release. These risks and uncertainties include, without limitation, the risks that development of the advanced lithium ion-based batteries and related products described herein will not be completed for technical, political, strategic or other reasons; that any products developed will not perform as expected in future testing or real-world applications; and that even if full commercialization occurs, product sales may be limited and costs associated with production may exceed revenues. In addition, other risks are identified in the company's most recent Annual Report on Form 10-K and Form 10-Q, as filed with the SEC. Such forward-looking statements speak only as of the date of this release. The company expressly disclaims any obligation to update or revise any forward-looking statements found herein to reflect any changes in company expectations or results or any change in events.
Contact:
For Additional Information:
Institutional Investors:
C. Robert Pedraza
Vice President, Corporate Strategy
Altair Nanotechnologies, Inc.
775.856.2500
Email Contact
Individual Investors:
Marty Tullio
Managing Member
McCloud Communications, LLC
949.553.9748
Email Contact
Media Relations:
Jeff Brunings
Director, Strategic Marketing
Altair Nanotechnologies, Inc.
775.856.2500
Email Contact
ALTI jumped 22% yesterday.
TylerDurden said:
Hmm... 105mm and "lightwight" seem to be mutually exclusive. Perhaps in comparison to the others?
Can't wait for these to become "Army surplus". :wink:
MitchJi
10 MW
Is this the magic lithium?"Upto 100C continuous with 250C burst" +
"80% of initial capacity remaining at 5000 cycles of 100% DOD" (Upto 500,000 with shallow discharge)
And it looks like it has the discharge characteristics of some type of lithium-manganese or cobalt. What makes these cells special? Could it be that it's lithium titanate?
Edit: I read the document and apparently it's called "Ltihium Nickel Oxide". Is nickel... abundant?
Apparently, lithium nickel oxide has been hotly pursued for the past few years for Hybrid applications. http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/003286.html
Holy crap, lithium technology sure seems to be the wave of the future (Not that it already isn't, but...).