Tonaro bighit clone - battery question

[Ahoog]

Hi all!

This is my first post ever, I have been reading for a while though.
I just recently bought a Tonaro Bighit clone (Nicebike Daytona) in Sweden.
They are restricted to 25 km/h but the little magnet on the back wheel fell off unfortunately
So now I don't get the cut off in power but I find the battery a little strange and need some advice.

There is a power meter built into the lamp with some LEDs and even when fresh off the charger the it goes down to about two LEDs when accelerating. The battery is a 36V 10Ah.
And the question to you guys who owns these bikes, is this normal?

Also, I find it a little bit slow running on power alone, mine came with a throttle as well as pedal assist.
So I'm thinking of an upgrade already and if someone has any advise regarding this it would be greatly appreciated.

/Anders

 

[BATFINK]

Welcome to forum, I think your experiencing under powered performance because it's probably a 250watt motor. With only a 36 volt 10 amp battery you are not going to see much increase in speed even when derestricted. If you want to go faster I'd suggest selling the bike and getting a 500-1000watt motor and a battery of at least 48volts and outing it on a good quality second hand mountain bike and it will be a lot better than what you have and give you the power you seek.

Sent using Endless-Sphere Mobile app

 

[gorach]

hi anders, welcome to big forum of all true wisdom. Your battery sounds a bit depleted, the voltage shouldn't sag like that freshly charged anyway. So check it with a multimeter, freshly charged should be just under 42v. and should give you about 50km range. You can check the individual cells too by the wee black jst connecter, 10 cells at 4.15v each. if u want to go faster than 25kph you need a bigger battery , or as batfink says a new bike.

 

[Tom L]

Upgrade options:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=32375
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=41482

 

[alban]

Hi Anders
Yes it might be the battery is a bit depleted - was it sold to you as brand new or had it been used as a demo bike previously? Batts degrade apparently from the first day they are used. They also don't perform as well in cold weather - don't know how far North you are?!
I found my stock meter seemed a bit over-sensitive to Voltage sag (meter lights going off) with acceleration and climbing so as gorach says check with a multimeter or maybe consider getting a Wattmeter/CA to be sure.
Top speed isn't what these bikes are good at, but rather hill climbing compared with hub motors for the same power. I think the upgrades linked to by Tom will give you some pointers - possibly a larger chainring also?

 

[Ahoog]

Thank you guys for your input.

Well, a new bike with a conversion kit would certainly be faster, I considered a Golden motor 48V kit for my old MTB before buying this one. However, I needed something quickly and that I knew was working out of the box so this was my choice.
Since its such a nice way commuting to work, a powerful hub will be my next project

The battery was sold as new with the bike and I charged it for 24 hours before using it the first time as stated in the manual.
Maybe its just a "not the best" battery since it is still working even when the leds are down on the red one.

BTW, even if not completely empty, can the battery be charged over night every day I use it or should I use it until empty before charging considering battery life?

I have considered getting a CA instead, which also gives my control freak mind a boost I'm no electrician, so I have a steep learning curve to climb before understanding how these things work.

I sent Daryl at EVLAB, who had made a review and upgrade of the Tonaro here at ES, an email and he suggested a "shunt modification" which I googled but still don't understand fully, and a chain wheel upgrade to make it go faster. I'm a little hesitant to mod my original controller even though its just around $80 to replace if I mess up.

I can't seem to find a suitable chain wheel though and if one of you guys know a place that sells these online, a pointer would be greatly appreciated.
Also if you know which controller, better than stock, that would fit in the stock compartment, and would be suitable for upping the amps?

 

[alban]

BTW, even if not completely empty, can the battery be charged over night every day I use it or should I use it until empty before charging considering battery life?

Yes always better to keep the battery as fully charged as poss - unless storing for months - then 50% or so and topped up reg as BMS draws a small current (check this...).

he suggested a "shunt modification" which I googled but still don't understand fully, and a chain wheel upgrade to make it go faster

Just adding a small amount of solder to the thick, U-shaped, bare metal wire (easily accessible by taking the 'wireless' end off the controller) will increase the current draw from the batt. Don't add much. You can test it stage by stage by getting a cheapo ebay RC Wattmeter and wiring it in line with the batt output. Then you can disconnect the rear brake sensor plug where it enters the bike frame near the bars (or the pin at the controller end but requires more identification skills) so the motor doesn't cut out when brake applied. Then gun the throttle with rear brake applied!! and watch max amps draw on wattmeter. Don't do it for more than a second or 2 as it may strain the gear mech/bearing. 20A would give a nice, 'safe' increase in power in my experience.
Chainwheel is easy to add, at least on my older one - just got to get the right bcd size of 130 or 110mm (see Sheldon Brown's bike website) and steel perhaps best. I think just a square taper BB tool to remove the crank/ chainwheel assembly is enough.

Poss to get controllers that just about fit - ebay/ Bmsbattery may do one. The controller is not wired like standard ones and replacement requires quite a bit of messing about with wires. Possible for a novice - with help - and you can end up with the major functions. There are various Tonaro wiring diags - and my efforts posted on here. I used this one http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/36V-350W-...porting_Goods_Scooters_LE&hash=item2575c5e2d8 but no speed limiter for Europe. Decent seller.

 

[d8veh]

Shunt mod photos so you can see what's involved. Sometimes the shunt is further inside the controller. It should be near where the thick black battery wire is fixed. The aim is to get a nice thick even coating of solder without it running through the PCB to the other side and without drops falling on other components to short them out.

Before:

After

 

[Ahoog]

So, finally I understand how the shunt mod is performed, a picture says more than a thousand words

And now, thanks to you guys, I have a way to do the mod and also to test how much current is flowing.

Thanks!

 

[chris...]

Ok so we are basically decreasing the resistance of the shunt resistor

 

[adifrank]

Hi Anders
The Bighit standard battery problem seems normal as my first battery
was sinking 4 volts under load.
i got a dc volt meter off ebay and wired it to read the battery volts direct so i could see the
effect while riding, and it was dropping 4 volts.
So i enquired from the supplier who did not think it should do that and he sent me another
new battery to try.
this one was the same ??
I also dont seem to get anywhere near the distance that other guys report.

Frank...

 

[chris...]

For reference I have a 1kW bike with programmable controller so my tests arnt completely blind
OK I attached an 10amp meter with the stock controller and it went over 10 amps on full power... ehh ok, still fells like a 200W bike
On my controller the board layout is a bit different to the pics above. That thick wire is about 1/4 the height and red/black power cables are sitting directly behind it so makes it impossible to put solder around the entire thing
I covered about half of one side of the wire and had a short ride up/down the street. The box got warm so thought that's probably the limit.
I can't test the amp draw as I dont have an appropriate meter, but im guessing it feels like about 4-500W. Cadence is too slow it needs 48V or different internal gear ratio
The bike does perform better, most noticeably up hills but its max speed is still limited by the gear ratio and motor speed. I currently get about 31kmh with easy pedaling

My next upgrade will be a front chain ring to 50T cause I have one already, I just need to work out how to pull the bearing/clutch unit apart to replace it, Should get me to about 35kmh easily. As for low range gears, never used it even when on 200W
I have the nuvinci N360 hub, Id have to say great for mid drive motors, not good for ordinary use. It does have some resistance and a decent derailer/shifter setup is still much cheaper then the N360 hub

Also will definitely get a generic 36/48V 25A-ish controller just in case I decide to get a 48V battery or 2x6S lipo. Program it to about 750W, decent power decent range and about 1/2 the max power people seem to be saying

 

[Ahoog]

Hi Anders
The Bighit standard battery problem seems normal as my first battery
was sinking 4 volts under load.
i got a dc volt meter off ebay and wired it to read the battery volts direct so i could see the
effect while riding, and it was dropping 4 volts.
So i enquired from the supplier who did not think it should do that and he sent me another
new battery to try.
this one was the same ??
I also dont seem to get anywhere near the distance that other guys report.

Frank...

Yes, mine also drops about 4V under load. I have decided that it is just a poor battery and I will get a 12s RC LiPo instead.

 

[acho]

This is my first post , I have been reading this thread for a while
I echo everything in Anders 1st post
I have a UK spec Tonaro with twist throttle
I have the PAS & magnet restrictor, sensor thing disconnected
I am a bit disapointed with top speed (15.3mph)
A guy on a front hub e-bike overtook me ( probably going about 2mph faster than me)
Seeing that some 24v e-bikes claim 15mph top speed & Tonaro E, Martin American spec. claimed top speed 18-20mph on throttle only
I thought simply taking the magnet off would make the bike faster
Or at a simple mod would do the trick
I read the modifications with interest
I am I correct in saying the shunt mod. gives more acceleration torque not increased top speed, and this uses more battery
The larger chainring gives higher top speed and may give greater distance travelled per battery charge
My UK spec .controller 25kmh & 26" (wheel size) most have some restrictor (volt ?) in it
I think my main question is not battery
Does any one have experiance of fitting another controller ? Chainring ? where purchased from ?
I think my battery is o.k. same as Anders
I would be grateful for some words of wisdom
acho






I just recently bought a Tonaro Bighit clone (Nicebike Daytona) in Sweden.
They are restricted to 25 km/h but the little magnet on the back wheel fell off unfortunately
So now I don't get the cut off in power but I find the battery a little strange and need some advice.

There is a power meter built into the lamp with some LEDs and even when fresh off the charger the it goes down to about two LEDs when accelerating. The battery is a 36V 10Ah.
And the question to you guys who owns these bikes, is this normal?

Also, I find it a little bit slow running on power alone, mine came with a throttle as well as pedal assist.
So I'm thinking of an upgrade already and if someone has any advise regarding this it would be greatly appreciated.

/Anders

 

[gorach]

Hi acho and welcome to our longrunning orb. Most of what you want to know is referenced in this thread already. The tonaro can be relatively easy and rewarding to modify if you are not content with it.
A 50-54 tooth chainwheel is the easiest way to increase your speed a bit (apart from pedaling of course). To increase the torque you have to modify the controller or swap it for one with higher current. But ultimately you are limited by the power the stock battery can provide, so you need more volts or more current or more both. Then eventually you come to a stage when the drivetrain begins to struggle with the motor's power output and you wish you lived in Australia where they have a magical gearbox called Nuvinci. Only then can you sit back and consider the perfection of your bike and how nice it would be were it half the weight it has now become.

 

[d8veh]

You could try a battery booster pack. The idea is to get hold of twelve decent 18650 cells, which you can get from Ebay or anywhere else, being mindful that there's lots of fake substandard ones. You can also get them from laptop batteries. Wire them together in a 3S4P configuration; charge them with a £20 lipo charger and wire themin series with you present battery, which means running some wires externally to them. Your present battery has a 10s4p configuration, so you end up with 13s4P, which gives about 20 -25% more power and speed. Alternatively, you can open your battery, remove the contents and install 12S lipos.

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/14841-8fun-kit-mod-48v.html

 

[dnmun]

don't add booster packs if you already are current limited. just buy a bigger battery when you finally ruin this one by hacking the shunt. the voltage drop is normal but you just have a small battery. 36V10A is a small battery. you could buy a second 36V10Ah pack and add it in parallel and the voltage drop would be reduced a lot.

then you can hack the shunt to get more current. you can solder a second wire across the corner where it turns to add 80% but your controller may not be able to handle the extra current either.

 

[acho]

Thanks for replies guys
I will try a larger chainring 1st
acho

 

[MasterCATZ]

Cheers for the shunt idea ( that pic is definatly worth 1000 words )

However I am going to solder in an switch to by-pass the shunt when I want the extra power
I just need to deside if I will use an relay or heavy duty switch