Toronto asked to keep e-bikes off sidewalks and bike lanes!

[Lessss]

I mean, just read the discussions here among ebikers who claim they can do 60 to 70km/h!

They are not illegal they are motor drive cycles (mopeds) and need to be licensed, insured as such. if they are not then they are operating them illegally. There are VERY VERY few scooter types that are like that as they need a new controller to go faster or re-wiring with an extra battery. Most folks that have them don't have the knowledge to modify. If modified they are Motor driven cycle(mopeds) and need to be licensed and registered as such.
Motor strength limit(wattage) is just the automotive execs way of neutering ebikes as a REAL alternative(go look who sat on the committee who wrote the regs). SPEED is the only thing that should be capped and the controllers should be looking at wheel speed to determine how much to cut back.

 

[swbluto]

In the end, there are many circumstances where a power limit doesn't address the true culprit - speed.

I doubt even that's the real issue. Seems like irresponsible driving causes a lot more problems than going 55 in a near-empty 45 zone. :?

A road's speed limits are another thing. It seems agreeable the "natural speed limit" of a context may be higher or lower than the nominal speed limit, but the nominal constant speed limit is needed due to enforcement convenience and, well, the costs involved in operating and managing a variable speed limit sign just isn't worth it for now.

Now, speed has a lot to do with it. If you do get in a crash, a higher kinetic energy will generally result in more damage and that includes damage to the person riding the vehicle. Above a certain speed, risk of lethality and severity drastically increases and the classification of the uninsured need to stay below that "safe limit" and its naively thought that a power limit will address that. And it does, but at the same time, it also has other negative ramifications that don't even deal with too much kinetic energy.

Also, "irresponsible driving" has its own set of laws, so you're taken care of in that regard. Rarely enforced? Maybe. But there's laws. Now, of course, there are legally permissible actions that aren't technically illegal but certainly heighten accident risks and that's indeed a problem.

 

[Link]

Now, speed has a lot to do with it. If you do get in a crash, a higher kinetic energy will generally result in more damage and that includes damage to the person riding the vehicle. Above a certain speed, risk of lethality and severity drastically increases and the classification of the uninsured need to stay below that "safe limit" and its naively thought that a power limit will address that. And it does, but at the same time, it also has other negative ramifications that don't even deal with too much kinetic energy.

Yeah, but I mean, don't drive like a dumbass and odds are you won't get in an accident. Unless it's with a dumbass.

Either way

there's dumbassery involved.

 

[jag]

In Edmonton I see the occasional pedal assist hub motor bike, but have never seen a scooter type bike on either bike paths or sidewalks.

The Alberta version of the eBike law rules out anything heavier than 35kg. That would seem to exclude most scooters.

Personally I would be in favor of letting people operate e-Scooters on roadways, but keep the weight restriction for bike paths or any other situations where the majority of users are pedestrians and bicyclists.

Having relatively liberal laws on e-Vehicles in general will hopefully speed up adaption. Making it difficult by requiring e.g. type approval of each model, registration and insurance will slow adoption.

 

[Lock]

The Alberta version of the eBike law rules out anything heavier than 35kg.

Interesting jag. No hits re the Alberta legislation on a quick google... any link pls?
tks
LoCk
Ontario

 

[Lock]

Wholly crap... reading from here:
http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType45/Production/small_vehicle_booklet_final.pdf
1(o): “power bicycle” means a vehicle that
(i) may be propelled
(a) by human muscular power
(b) by mechanical power, or
(c) partly by human muscular power and partly by mechanical power
(ii) is fitted with pedals that are continually operable to propel it,
(iii) has a motor that produces not more than 750 watts and that is driven
by electricity or has an engine with a displacement of not more than
50 cubic centimetres
(iv) does not have a hand-operated or foot-operated clutch or gearbox driven
by the motor that transfers power to the driven wheel
(v) does not have sufficient power to enable it to attain a speed greater than 35
kilometres per hour on level ground within a distance of 2 kilometres from a
standing start, and
(vi) weighs not more than 35 kilograms


Not more than 750W!!!!!!!

Alberta threw out the Fed definition (500W max.)!!!!!!!!

Gawds... electric or gas... well, can't win `em all...

WTF no "gearbox"? I wonder how planetary gears in a hub motor measure up to the def of "gearbox" then...

From the same pdf:
"Minimum driving age: The minimum age for operating a power bicycle is 12
years. You must also have written consent from a parent or legal guardian."

Hehe... so all ages must carry a note/consent from a parent? :lol:

Hadn't realized Alberta had taken their own route with ebikes...
Still:
"...pedals that are continually operable to propel it..."
rules out my kick machines

tks
locK

 

[Link]

(v) does not have sufficient power to enable it to attain a speed greater than 35
kilometres per hour on level ground within a distance of 2 kilometres from a
standing start

Wow, that's...who the hell wrote this crap? I could get up to 35kph on a POS Wal-Mart bike with rubbing brakes and half-flat tires under my own power in less than 100m fairly easily. And 750W could do it a lot faster than I could. SOMEBODY never took physics in high scool...

Plus, 50cc can make a lot more than 750W. :|

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

alberta hasn't changed, it's been 750W since the last fake oil crisis that i know of, if not even well b4 that.
allberta & yukon where the only stakeholders that argued for harmonizing with U.S. regs at the time the fed reg was being drafted.
the federal government gave in to la belle provence for a lower limit to serve as a trade barrier protecting home grown Bionx, so make sure to thank them at every opportunity.
also not absolutely sure but i think u can have a gearbox, just not a manually actuated one.
i see no reason why it can't be single speed or else an automatic like the new NuVinci or Shimano Auto-D.

as for subsection (v), i've been trying for years to get someone official to explain that one to me.
by my read it seems to be a cap on acceleration, (i think they don't want anyone to be able to outrace the polis).
for the life of me i can't figure why it's expressed as velocity over distance instead of the normal velocity over time??

that's going to be my argument should i ever get nabbed, that the reg doesn't clearly spell out a max speed.
i think all you would need to do is to simply jump to 35 km/h & hold the speed there while something like a rev counter paces off the correct # of wheel rotations to equal 2 km.
after 2 km, no speed limit.
so someone pls correct me if i'm totally off the mark & overlooked something or is there the basis a legal defence here to do an end run past 35 km/h?

 

[Anonymous]

.

 

[northernmike]

Guys, think about it this way.

If anyone, and I mean ANYONE, could walk into a Toronto eBike retailer and purchase a vehicle, for use on public roads, bike paths, sidewalks, perhaps even - with let's say 1000 or 1500 watts of power - would you be afraid for your neighbourhood?

You need no driver's license, no insurance, the only requirements are that you wear an approved bicycle helmet and be 16 years of age or older.

I've seen a LOT of unreasonable, incapable, dimwitted, ill intentioned, ne'er-do-wells who, by the nature of being a human being trapped in a city designed around vehicular mobility, would most certainly take an eBike that performed the way we would like them to and do UNSPEAKABLE things with it - hurting themselves, others, and in turn, all of us who eBike.

From the perspective of lawmakers, law enforcement, and retailers, I understand the need to protect people from themselves.

The tendency of many to "see how fast it'll go" in the wrong place at the wrong time is PARAMOUNT with this kind of vehicle, especially in Toronto.

In my estimation, homebuilt bikes, if used responsibly, shouldn't attract the kind of attention to afford persecution.

32kph in downtown traffic is plenty.

I keep up to it on my unelectrified 10 speed.

You don't need to drive on the sidewalk, in Toronto, and shouldn't. It's less safe than the street.

And the bike paths - well, I can see the 9 to 5 crowd wanting to keep their "nature trails" for themselves.

I'm just saying, look at both sides.

 

[Lock]

You don't need to drive on the sidewalk, in Toronto, and shouldn't. It's less safe than the street.

Limited perspective northernmike. I have surfed Toronto sidewalks over 10k kms w/my electric laufmaschines... Not as fast as Usain Bolt on foot but faster than rush hour traffic and public transit speeds. The electric assist makes it easy to stop and go so for the one percent of times I am around pedestrians and intersections/driveways I am walking or kicking. Toronto streets are infested with amateurs operating heavy equipment. Most disabled by drugs or age or testostorone or lack of sleep or yell phone etc etc. The sidewalks are 99% empty of traffic and otherwise the "traffic" is often also on two wheels. I am talking about the `burbs, not downtown core. Ya have to drive the sidewalks differently than the streets and the Victorian pedal bicycle isn't the right tool for the job.
View attachment Scooter_Highways.jpg

 

[northernmike]

Lock - agreed, the burbs are a different animal. The sidewalk you picture is like the DVP compared to sidewalks where I commute!!

(Pape and Cosburn to Yonge and Bloor - via Broadview and the Danforth)

 

[rkosiorek]

a valid argument could be made that some skaters/rollerbladers are also dangerous.

but regardless. it is dishonest for the bike union to misrepresent the facts by calling a scooter looking contraption an e-bike.

rick

 

[vanilla ice]

The scooter looking contraptions legally are ebikes though. Thats the other part of the problem. They were created to take advantage of the gaps in the law. So this bike union should be closing the gaps like you guys said. Go get rid of the wheel diameter thing and put in its place the age limit.. over 12 and sidewalks off limits. And a weight limit if needed, maybe even a width limit for the bottom bracket to make sure its usable.

 

[jag]

as for subsection (v), i've been trying for years to get someone official to explain that one to me.
by my read it seems to be a cap on acceleration, (i think they don't want anyone to be able to outrace the polis).
for the life of me i can't figure why it's expressed as velocity over distance instead of the normal velocity over time??

that's going to be my argument should i ever get nabbed, that the reg doesn't clearly spell out a max speed.
i think all you would need to do is to simply jump to 35 km/h & hold the speed there while something like a rev counter paces off the correct # of wheel rotations to equal 2 km.
after 2 km, no speed limit.
so someone pls correct me if i'm totally off the mark & overlooked something or is there the basis a legal defence here to do an end run past 35 km/h?

Below 35km/h for 2km, then no speed limit! Wow! We have to ask Justin to make a special Alberta mode on the Cycle Analyst to implement that. this was probably not the intention of the legislation, but if the highly esteemed lawmakers can write unambiguous rules, is then the burden on the populace to figure out what the intended interpretation should be?

In section V (text copied in post below) it is also not clearly said what should happen to motor power once someone pedals in addition to the motor power. Some European countries have the rule that all motor power must be cut above the speed limit (in Europe a ridiculously low 25km/h). If I set the cycle analyst to speed limiting it behaves like this. If I pedal, the only thing that happens is that the motor makes less power as I make more, but the speed stays the same.

However, for eBikes without any fancy computer control, if it is designed to go say 35km/h, motor power won't cut out completely at 36km/h, but usually slowly tapers off, and becomes zero often at a speed twice of motor-only speed. In this practical case, with pedaling, one can go significantly faster than either the motor-only or the pedal-only speed. With the CA I achieve a somewhat similar result if I set the current limit to 8A. Now with no pedaling the bike tops out at approximately 35km/h on flat ground, but with pedaling, the motor stays on above 35km/h. This allows me to achieve higher top speeds with combined pedaling and motor. Now if I get pulled over I wonder if I can get fined for going faster than 35km/h?

Wholly crap... reading from here:
http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType45/Production/small_vehicle_booklet_final.pdf
1(o): “power bicycle” means a vehicle that
(i) may be propelled
(a) by human muscular power
(b) by mechanical power, or
(c) partly by human muscular power and partly by mechanical power
(ii) is fitted with pedals that are continually operable to propel it,
(iii) has a motor that produces not more than 750 watts and that is driven
by electricity or has an engine with a displacement of not more than
50 cubic centimetres
(iv) does not have a hand-operated or foot-operated clutch or gearbox driven
by the motor that transfers power to the driven wheel
(v) does not have sufficient power to enable it to attain a speed greater than 35
kilometres per hour on level ground within a distance of 2 kilometres from a
standing start, and
(vi) weighs not more than 35 kilograms


Not more than 750W!!!!!!!

Alberta threw out the Fed definition (500W max.)!!!!!!!!

Gawds... electric or gas... well, can't win `em all...

WTF no "gearbox"? I wonder how planetary gears in a hub motor measure up to the def of "gearbox" then...

From the same pdf:
"Minimum driving age: The minimum age for operating a power bicycle is 12
years. You must also have written consent from a parent or legal guardian."

Hehe... so all ages must carry a note/consent from a parent? :lol:

Hadn't realized Alberta had taken their own route with ebikes...
Still:
"...pedals that are continually operable to propel it..."
rules out my kick machines

tks
locK

 

[Lessss]

maybe even a width limit for the bottom bracket to make sure its usable.

Ha if that isn't a direct try to eliminate a specific frame. Na lets just keep the Total width restricted. After all most of those scooter style bikes are Thinner than a mountain bike.

I CAN pedal my wide frame scooter style bike and DO it often when starting from a stop and climbing hills to reduce draw on the battery and keep the motor cool.

 

[Takemehome]

A bike going 40 Km/h on a crowded bike lane is more dangerous than a E-bike or E-scooter at 20 Km/h. (bike lane limit in Montreal).

Whenever I speed, I do it on the streets.
I don't know about you guys, but for speed, I find the street is safer than the bike lane.
People always check for traffic before crossing the streets, rarely, when they cross the bike lane.

I hope they don't ban E-scooters.
Many elderly people choose these as a means of transport.
Less expensive than quads and faster too.

The more bikes, E-bikes, E-scooters and even skaters, the more bike lanes we'll get.
So in the long run, we all benefit if no one gets banned.
Think of it, "those who annoy us" (manner of speech) are mainly seen on week-ends.

 

[Lessss]

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=e3bjSapKtEBvwtVH7U2Xmw_3d_3d

44.4% of respondants so far agree standard bikes without turn signals headlight and stop light should be banned from the street.

 

[northernmike]

I bought a bike for my girlfriend yesterday and had to ride it home, towing my 10 speed racer by steering it from the neck with my right hand.

The lady's bike has no bell, as of yet.

I was scared witless. I am SO used to ringing my bell as I approach people, cars, intersections, ANY possible thing that could avoid jumping into my path if I have the wherewithal to alert them to my presence - without a bell I felt like a ghost out there.

Same goes for lights / reflectors at night.

I just ordered a set of Schwalbe tires with reflective sidewalls for the new bike - go European innovation!

Bottom line, in my humble opinion:

We should be working on making things safer and better for everyone, rather than trying to get each other in trouble.

 

[Link]

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=e3bjSapKtEBvwtVH7U2Xmw_3d_3d

44.4% of respondants so far agree standard bikes without turn signals headlight and stop light should be banned from the street.

WTF

Out of curiosity, how many bikes HAVE you guys seen that have stop and turn signals? All I've ever seen are head and taillights.

 

[pat_smtih]

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=e3bjSapKtEBvwtVH7U2Xmw_3d_3d

44.4% of respondants so far agree standard bikes without turn signals headlight and stop light should be banned from the street.

WTF

Out of curiosity, how many bikes HAVE you guys seen that have stop and turn signals? All I've ever seen are head and taillights.

99.9% of the bicyclists I see have a turn/stop signal though they rarely use it. In the US it's called a left arm:

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

yeah but american sign language is different from RoW. :wink:
like check out those hospital corners for elbows, only in amaericaa.

 

[philf]

Plenty of intelligent discussion, here...

I've just spent the better part of 45 minutes on three attempts to put forth an opinion, here, as I'm quite passionate about a few aspects of what is being discussed. The more I try, the more I see red.

[Paragraphs deleted]

Crap. I just caught myself again...

The sticking point, for me, is this - the "things" that look like motor scooters, but which some bright spark has managed to promote and have universally accepted as "e-bikes" (*sigh*, breathe in)... frankly irk me to the core of every level of my being.

Where I was trying to go, but just can't seem to get out without an excess of invective creeping in, is this... These "scooters" need their own classification. At 185lbs, with bulky fairings and cargo containers, they are NOT bicycles. Frankly, most of the people I've seen riding them are usually geriatrics, or people with disabilities. GOOD for them - these things are enabling! But it's the younger people I encounter that give you that knowing "wink" about the detachable pedals being in stowage under the seat, while admitting that they're as good as useless, that piss me off. They *know* they're getting away with something - and that something is upsetting the applecart for those (like me) who ENJOY pedaling their bikes and using the power as either an assist, or a way of closing distances on an open road...

The bike, above, is my main rider. When engaging random people I have occasion to meet while out for a ride, I often have to drag 'em by the nose hairs to recognize it as an "e-bike" because, when you say "e-bike", they get all pissy and opinionated about the "motor scooters" that they see causing so much controversy in the news. Farging media. Besides, my bicycle looks and acts like a fine BICYCLE, even without power.

[More disparaging remarks removed]

Hell, this still reads poorly, and I haven't fairly qualified what I'm trying to say. But that's the best I can do without being an asshole about it. I *know* that not everyone agrees with my (obviously strong) feelings, here - but I can't let this one slide by without SOME comment. There's a faction here that, even if created accidentally, is peeing in my pool. I don't like it. Read it how you will - at the end of the day, it's easily distilled to just another black-and-white statistic in itself, no?

 

[philf]

Just when you thought I was done...

I removed a chunk of my previous message that was important to explaining the "peeing in my pool" remark, and why I have such a hate-on for the placement of "scooters" in the marketplace. The following excerpt is is from the MTO site (the Ministry of Tranportation for Ontario, Canada, for anyone reading from elsewhere). For those unaware, e-bikes have been "on trial", here, for the past few years. Only recently have scooters entered into the equation in a significant, and possibly detrimental, way.

Note: A commitment has been made to evaluate the pilot prior to its three-year expiry. The intent of the ministry's pilot was to allow e-bikes that look and operate like conventional bikes in order to promote a safe, healthy and environmentally friendly alternative to current transportation modes.

The ministry has become aware of scooter-style vehicles that technically meet the pilot's e-bike definition, but not the intent, as they are not primarily operated by muscular power due to their heavy weight. Therefore, in addition to evaluating how safely the e-bike can integrate with other motor vehicles, bicycles and pedestrians, the emergence of the scooter-style e-bikes requires the ministry to also assess if the pilot's original intent continues to be appropriate. The ministry may clarify its position on the original intent of the pilot when final legislation is drafted.

My opinion is that Scooters are closer to Mopeds, and should NOT be considered e-bikes. Either way, they've potentially f**cked up a good thing.

 

[jag]

99.9% of the bicyclists I see have a turn/stop signal though they rarely use it. In the US it's called a left arm:

What about those of us with a left side throttle?

I was actually thinking to install a turn signal flasher just so I can keep my hands on the handlebar.
Not sure if the motorists will pay attention though. Here plenty of cars don;t bother to signal their turns.