Toronto asked to keep e-bikes off sidewalks and bike lanes!

[vanilla ice]

..if that isn't a direct try to eliminate a specific frame. Na lets just keep the Total width restricted. After all most of those scooter style bikes are Thinner than a mountain bike.

The BB width restriction was just off the top of my head.. I agree with phil on this. If those ugly POS's are F'n it up for the rest of the ebikes then reclass or ban them. Better the weight/BB/age/width/whatever restrictions then all ebikes taking the fall for those few.

 

[Lessss]

Here's the thing about the scooter types. They are the legal ones. The illegal ones, which ARE the ones that will F it up for all, are the stealth home converted bikes. Yet it's the scooter one's that get the rep.

They are no different than your homebuild except they have a plastic fairing and different style of frame. They are still 2 wheels a motor battery and controller.... and oh yes are actually restricted to the law of 32 kph.

 

[vanilla ice]

Well I'm far away from this whole dealio, but from what I understand from the CA'ers posting in the thread- the small wheel diameter and bike classification of these scooter-lookin things allows them to be legally ridden on the sidewalk. Overzealous backlash ensues from PO'd ebike-illiterate peeps.. Or do I have it wrong?

 

[Lock]

Well I'm far away from this whole dealio, but from what I understand from the CA'ers posting in the thread- the small wheel diameter and bike classification of these scooter-lookin things allows them to be legally ridden on the sidewalk. Overzealous backlash ensues from PO'd ebike-illiterate peeps.. Or do I have it wrong?

Yer right Vanilla. Toronto has a By-Law that permits wheels less than 24" on the sidewalks. Intended for kids of course. But it's not like the "scooter-style" ebike riders are taking to the sidewalks en masse. But they do mount the sidewalks to get to the post-and-ring bicycle lockups. The dumb part in all this is that it is the pedal-bike crowd (some of `em) who are leading the charge against the scooter ebikes in their beloved bicycle lanes and now they are lumping this "on the sidewalk" bovine excrement into the deal.


And Lessss... NO, it's not the home-built or kit bikes that are screwing things up at all. Those bikes are *invisible* to most folks here. The China scooter-style ebikes are the SORE THUMBS that have been showing up in great numbers...
tks
Lock

 

[northernmike]

Regarding the complaint against e-Bikes as being "too quiet" ...

The Pashley I picked up last week does not "click" when freewheeling - it is TOTALLY silent. Meaning none of the so-called "tell-tale" signs for the "hearing impaired" are there...

This same bicycle has been in production since 1926 - and we've got along fine with silent bikes since then!

I really do think this will all blow over.

 

[Lock]

I really do think this will all blow over.

Meet Yvonne Bambrick of the Toronto Cyclists Union... From the TCU Facebook group:

Lock Hughes wrote at 4:37pm on June 4th, 2009
BTW, the vehicle pictured in the survey is not an ebike because it has no pedals
Tks

Yvonne Bambrick wrote at 12:45pm on June 10th, 2009
@ Lock Hughes - the e-bike pictured at the start of the survey is indeed an 'e-bike', the pedals have been removed, as is often the case with these cosmetic pedals, because they get in the way, can pose a safety risk, and are basically unusable.

Lock Hughes wrote at 5:37am
@Yvonne
Thanks Yvonne! I was referring to the legal definition in the Highway Traffic Act where it defines "power-assisted bicycle" to require:
(c) has affixed to it pedals that are operable

It's obvious that the vehicle in the survey picture does not conform to the legal definition. "e-bike" is not a legal term.
Tks

Lock Hughes wrote at 6:17am
@Yvonne
...so you see, the TCU is going about things the wrong way. When you see an unlicensed motor vehicle like that, just point it out to your friendly neighbourhood police officer. The fines for no license, no insurance, no approved motorcycle helmet add up. What the TCU can do instead is educate Torontonians about the "real" designs of power-assisted bicycles that are available, and their *real* advantages over the "scooter-style" junk vehicles they are being sold.
Tks


Feel free to jump in

If not on facebook, TCU main site:
http://bikeunion.to/

There's is another "social networking" site called Ning that also has a small but growing Toronto cyclists forum on it and I recently created a "power-Assist" group on this too:

http://bikingtorontocommunity.ning.com/group/powerassistbicycles
It's lonely in a group w/only one member

Lock

 

[Lessss]

so which of these are not electric bicycles?

 

[Lessss]

Oh wait they all have the same WIDTH of pedal!

They are all 1 SLA battery width seperated.

I admit there are 2 battery width separated pedals like the original post on the toronto bicyle union website.

The point is they all have the same mechanics and parts it is only Style of frame and width that is different.

 

[kriskros]

the toronto cyclists union .... the supremacists of the bicycle world...would you believe they all PEDAL ONLY....the pure ones ... those imperfect ones who actualy ride power assisted bicycles should be banned from THEIR bicycle paths..... among these inferior beings are the senior citizens[we do not have the physical abilities we had when younger] ... ].... and.....those creative ,thought ful creatures who are malicously endevouring to improve these power assisted bikes to the point where they may become practical and widespread....these are the worst... beware of them ...... membership in the TCU is available.... i leave it to you to guess what the intelligence requirements are :x....... scooters are another world , they have their place.... i would not ride one

 

[vanilla ice]

membership in the TCU is available

Where do I sign up!?

 

[Link]

so which of these are not electric bicycles?

Which ones go no more than 20mph and have less than 1000W?

(Though if I had my way, it'd be 25-30mph and no more than, say, 100lbs; power limit is still stupid.)

 

[Lessss]

All of em are 32 KPH capped, all have a 500W motor.

 

[Lock]

I'll say they all conform to legal definitions of "power-assisted bicycle". But if it were not for the power-assist, no one would buy them because they are too heavy and the ergonomics are poor for pedaling...

The Toronto pedal crowd (some of them) don't care whether they are legal or not, they just don't see them as "bicycles" but as "motorcycles" invading their beloved (hard fought for) bike lanes. They shouldn't be ridiculed but instead educated to correct their myopic vision. I believe they are all safer with others riding around them on any sort of light weight two-wheeled vehicle rather than in four wheeled SUVs and minivans etc. And the more ppl that take to two wheels the more political pressure there will be to accomodate all two-wheeled traffic. The pedal ppl are an organized group that lobby often and hard for bicycles and it would be better if they were supporting ebikes rather than fighting them!

Tks
Lock

 

[Lock]

From here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5787&start=60#p169227

2.The CCMTA and (EU) options would likely make most scooter-style vehicles ineligible for use as e-bikes. However, they may be permitted under the Limited-Speed Motorcycle (LSM) rules in Ontario, pending speed/equipment modifications and compliance.

Among other things, the Ontario government proposes enforcing pedelec only, and limiting the weight of the ebike to 50kgs

Tks
Lock

 

[disndat]

As someone that rides my ebike(not e-scooter-I'm not against them but they are different)on toronto bike paths/lanes and roads-I must say that I have no desire to ride on the sidewalk.But people like this Yvonne character need to wake the f-ck up.I usually cruise around at 20-25 kph and it never fails that some lycra wearing jackass on a slick road bike comes barreling past me.So for laughs I catch up to him and pass him(while pedaling I might add)and what does the jerk do-he "tries" to race me.So if the path is clear I play his little game for a bit and he gets really pissed off because he cant catch me-so when I let off-he goes flying past me and yells "thats cheating"-and the funny part is that he is really pissed.These are the same assholes that fly(at about 40kph) through a busy path and hit somebody(seen it a bunch of times-including my girlfriend,she was ok though).I have yet to see an accident with an ebike.Now I am not saying that all ebikers are angels(myself included)but the real threat to bike safety on paths is the RIDER NOT THE BIKE.I really hate this snob attitude toward anything new and different.Usually people give positive comments about my bike but every so often I come across one of these so called "bike purists".To them I say get a life.I have passed cops on bikes all through the city and have never been stopped.Anyway rant over.

 

[philf]

Among other things, the Ontario government proposes enforcing pedelec only, and limiting the weight of the ebike to 50kgs

Now, given the negative points raised in various GTA newspaper articles, CTV News, etc., about these scooter e-bikes - public complaints from people not accepting them on bike paths, police confusion over being able to quickly differentiate them from their gasoline counterparts (to which different laws apply), etc. - doesn't this pedelec proposal sound like a logical way to help solve the perceived "problem"? It would make the scooters either useless or easily recognized as illegal, changing the nature of the confusion to make it much simpler to manage.

If it happens (and I'll not be the only one pissed if it does), I'll have no trouble believing this is a scourge was brought on directly as a result of scooters.

This is where the scooter people can win some points with me - by successfully rallying AGAINST the pedelec. After all, those already owning scooters will have an expensive boat anchor. Future sales will be killed instantly.

 

[Lock]

Hi Phil

doesn't this pedelec proposal sound like a logical way to help solve the perceived "problem"?

My kick scooters don't have pedals. Yet in my experience and in the one-two studies I have found about kick scoots (powered or not) these studies suggest that the stand up scoot is as safe or safer than the pedal bike - fewer accidents plus injuries less severe (and both much, much safer than inline skates and skateboards.)

It would make the scooters either useless or easily recognized as illegal, changing the nature of the confusion to make it much simpler to manage.

...the weight limit should serve the same purpose. And gets back to a basic tenet of vehicle design that lighter is better (given that it is designed and built to be strong enough.) The scooter-style bikes appear to carry around maybe 50lbs of ugly fat (plastic) and would benefit from a crash diet (better range and acceleration and braking from lighter weight, all else the same.)

Read about what Transport Canada said from their ebike study.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5787&start=60#p169299

There is NO research that I am aware of that shows that pedelec is any safer...

If it happens (and I'll not be the only one pissed if it does), I'll have no trouble believing this is a scourge was brought on directly as a result of scooters.

I agree.

This is where the scooter people can win some points with me - by successfully rallying AGAINST the pedelec. After all, those already owning scooters will have an expensive boat anchor. Future sales will be killed instantly.

To clarify... future sales of poorly designed and cheaply built vehicles will be killed instantly (grin)
Tks
Lock

 

[Lock]

BTW Phil...

If the Province insists on waving around those old CCMTA guidelines from 2001 (that appear based on only opinion and speculation - in 2001, how many of their members had ever even SEEN an ebike???), the 50Kg weight limit applies to the bike only, EXCLUDING TRAILER... so if anyone wishes to load up a push trailer with batteries they are good to go (hehehe)
tks
Lock

 

[jag]

And the more ppl that take to two wheels the more political pressure there will be to accomodate all two-wheeled traffic. The pedal ppl are an organized group that lobby often and hard for bicycles and it would be better if they were supporting ebikes rather than fighting them!

Well said. Whether ebikers or regular bicyclists we gain more from increasing our combined numbers than fighting. Much the same goes for pedestrians, rollerbladers, skateboarders and whatever else. Yes, occasionally one will annoy another, but none will benefit by focussing media attention on a conflict between one against another of these groups. Most of today's concerns are the same for all these groups in terms of needing better city planning for non-motorists. All will gain by getting over differences and maximizing access for all groups.

 

[Lock]

Terrific thread from 2008 here:
http://www.ibiketo.ca/blog/2008/07/24/letter-e-biker#comment-5107

...and a 2009 update here:
http://www.ibiketo.ca/blog/2009/06/18/tell-province-what-you-think-e-bikes

...and here:
http://www.ibiketo.ca/forum/general/electric-scooter-lion-lambs-clothes

...amusing one here:
http://www.ibiketo.ca/forum/commuters/ken-finchs-e-bike-forum-no-free-speech-zone

 

[Lock]

PLEASE NOTE: In the event of a labour disruption this meeting may need to be re-scheduled.

Monday, June 29, 2009
7:00 p.m.
Committee Room 2
2nd Floor, City Hall

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/2009/agendas/committees/cy/cy090629/agenda.pdf


Communications/Reports:
1. Electronic (E-bikes)/Motorized Bicycles Discussion
(7:00 p.m. to 7:20 p.m.)

1a. E-bikes
Letter (June 8, 2009) from Anthony Humphreys, requesting the Toronto Cycling Advisory Committee to hold a discussion at this meeting regarding how E-bikes are using park paths and bike lanes, and that such facilities were not designed to accommodate motorized vehicles.

- 2 -
1b. Motorized Bicycles on Sidewalks
Extract from the Toronto Pedestrian Committee Minutes of May 19, 2009 with reference to Motorized Bicycles on Sidewalks:
“The Toronto Pedestrian Committee considered an e-mail from Dylan Reid, Co-Chair, Toronto Pedestrian Committee, requesting that the appropriate by-law be amended so that no bicycle that includes a motor of any kind is allowed to travel on a sidewalk.
The Toronto Pedestrian Committee also considered an e-mail from Jennifer Hyland, addressed to Dylan Reid, regarding Bill 126 – Road Safety Act.
The Toronto Pedestrian Committee wanted to know if motor scooters, such as Vespas, are allowed to park on City sidewalks and what enforcement measures are in place to ensure adherence to the relevant by-laws. Police Constable Stephanie Borun, Toronto Police Services, Traffic Services, agreed to provide the answers to the June 23, 2009 meeting of the Committee.

The Toronto Pedestrian Committee recommended to the Public Works and Infrastructure Committee:
1. The General Manager, Transportation Services, in consultation with the City Solicitor, be requested to report on the necessary amendments to City
By-laws to prohibit the use of “power-assisted bicycles” on City sidewalks, and that the report include alternative ways to enforce the proposed by-law.

2. The General Manager, Transportation Services, in consultation with the City Solicitor, be requested to report on potential amendments to City Bylaws
to address the challenge of adult cyclists riding bicycles with a wheel diameter of less than 61 centimetres on City sidewalks.”

 

[Lock]

http://bikeunion.to/news/2009/06/15/scooter-style-e-bike-survey-results-are

Scooter Style E-bike Survey - Results are in!
15 June, 2009 - 16:44 — yvonne

e-bikeOver a 10 day period, 555 Torontonians completed our very simple opinion survey regarding the somewhat controvertial scooter style e-bikes (pictured) that have recently been added to the provincial definition of 'bicycle' via the broad definition of 'power-assisted bicycle'

Survey results can be viewed by following this link, or by opening the attached excel summary document.

http://www.surveymonkey.com/sr.aspx?sm=xr1FClvlCQMd3KwuMFxzJBws0jdbdgp2MMKkXlcXqCU_3d

In short...the survey results show that the bike union's position is indeed a reflection of the opinion of the majority of respondents.

87.3% of respondents feel that this type of vehicle is not a bicycle
88.3% of respondents feel that this is a motor-vehicle
63.8% of respondents feel that these vehicles should not be used in on-street bike lanes
78.4% of respondents feel that these vehicles should not be used on off-road bike/multi-user paths
Additionally, there was a wide variety of open ended answers that can be viewed via the link, or in the attached document.

 

[northernmike]

There are a wide variety of responses to the question in the survey "Where do you think this type of vehicle should be used?"...

Many of which have no issue with scooter-style e-bikes in bike lanes with bicycles.

555 people in a city of 2,480,000 (5,500,000 if you include the outlying "Greater Toronto Area") is NOT a representative sample.


I would personally like to see the Police use such things instead of the mountain bikes they employ at the moment - officers would suffer less fatigue, cover more ground more quickly, and be much more able to sneak up on cyclists of all kinds - enabling them to "catch them in the act" of running stop signs, passing other cyclists with no indication, maneuvering without signaling, riding without a bell (let alone using one if attached), cutting off pedestrians and motorists, et al.

The motor scooter crowd who park on sidewalks enjoy a great privilege in our undercrowded city, and are generally respectful of the spaces they use, in my observation, anyway.

The typical scooter-style e-bike rider might come off as less experienced, educated and/or respectful at this point in time. I hope that can and will change.

I saw one of these on an 80km/h 4-lane pseudo highway yesterday and was afraid for the man's life.

Perhaps some competence should be legislated - but not the kind that requires registration (fees), licence (fees) and insurance (fees).

Going 32kph should not cost money.

 

[Lock]

555 people in a city of 2,480,000 (5,500,000 if you include the outlying "Greater Toronto Area") is NOT a representative sample.

Gawds, I've forgotten all my stats... Lessee... For a population of 5,000,000, seeking a 95% Confidence level and say a 4 Confidence Interval then you would need a sample size of 600.

...But I think the intent of the survey was to survey bike users only (the main TCU constituency...) Which would be a far smaller population size.

But more to the point, the sampling was not *random*. I forget how much but something like half the respondents are members of the TCU who form only a tiny (but very vocal and "hardcore") part of the much larger biking community. If they had sent interviewers out into the streets to ask the same questions of random cyclists the sampling would have been much better.

Anywhooo... once upon a time I was chief accounting guy for Canadas largest research house. There's a reason why there are professionals employed in designing surveys. But one of the things the designers taught me was that they could design a survey to produce any result you wish! :wink:
Tks
loCk

 

[northernmike]

Lock, exactly!

88.7 % of statistics are made up on the spot.