Total Noob - help too optimistic?

[wesnewell]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternating_current

30-40A fuse. You'll get a pop when you plug in the battery if you don' use a precharge circuit.

 

[OCMike]

Got my Zippy's



All read 23.0 Volts on test but this one in picture now reads 23.1v



My noobness shows again! What the heck ... there's shrink wrap on the bullets and they're all the same ... can't put in series directly! I'm such a deufus ... help

 

[mark5]

You can use an Xacto knife to trim the excess heat shrink. Red you only want to expose the opening so you cut above the rim. Keep the metal perimeter covered to insulate. Black you expose more. Look at a picture of a male 5.5mm to know where to cut. Like this picture.

 

[OCMike]

You can use an Xacto knife to trim the excess heat shrink. Red you only want to expose the opening so you cut above the rim. Keep the metal perimeter covered to insulate. Black you expose more. Look at a picture of a male 5.5mm to know where to cut. Like this picture.

Thanks!



I know you guys are like "what a dork!". But for a guy like me this is like breaking new ground. Just getting the mini volt meter and looking at it was pretty cool. Then when I got the batteries yesterday and could actually use it, WOW (super dork!)

If you look closely at the picture my unveiling of the connectors (cutting the heat shrink) was a minor hatchet job. I assume my motto should be "no connection left uncovered" - meaning once this connection is long term and ready for use, heat shrink should go over it to protect both it from the elements and it's surrounding from an inadvertent short?

 

[OCMike]

E-beach, Harbor Freight Tools is an excellent source for cheep ebike stuff.

To wire your power supply you will probably need a voltmeter and be careful to keep the wires from touching. Any computer cord should do. I am not an expert but this is what I was told. The “L” wire should show 120vac to/across both the “N” and “G” wires. I was lucky because the “G” wires on my three power supplies all had green markings, which is usually standard. If this is not correct let me know. Here are 2 of my power supplies/chargers:

View attachment 3

View attachment 2


I also recommend these connectors because if you move your unit around the wires will break off.

View attachment 1

I found that these power supplies vibrate (fan) and the screws will come loose. You need to check them on occasion.

Good luck!

OK - may be I'm overkill on the checking of things - but I suspect that checking stuff is helping solidify my understanding and helping to keep errors at bay. I know errors are in my future - let's just hope there won't be any catastrophic ones!

So, I cut an old computer power wire and found the colors I hoped to inside (above picture). I then plugged it in and used a multi-meter to check the black wire against the screw of the plug cover. It read 120v. When I checked the white wire in the same way, it read 0. I guess black is hot. I'll assume all plugs in the United States are connected in the same way - so when I plug this puppy in black is always hot.

 

[wesnewell]

Where you've connected your 2 6s packs together be sure and insulate the bare connectors with something like electrical tape or shrink tubing to avoid accidental shorts and/or separation.

 

[mcintyretj]

OCMike, looks like you will be out on the road soon.

For testing your set-up, I recommend keeping everything as simple as possible. When you are connecting a lot of red to red (parallel/charging), then red to black (series), that’s where the mistakes happen. Until you get a routine, the less chance for mistakes the better off you are.

For placement of your controller and voltmeter, these come in handy:



I commuted with my controller mounted in about 5 different places and used zip ties for about 8 months. Harbor Freight tools has a good supply.


Also, if you do not have your wheel on yet I recommend putting the torque washer on the inside. I put mine on the outside:



It has worked well for the last year but, on the inside, you will get more contact with the frame. You can always put your extra torque arm later. You will still need to pop the hall wires out from the housing to flip/arrange the washers to way you want. Wesnewell has much more experience than me in this area. I have been riding with just the washers for 6000 miles and am thinking of purchasing a real torque arm when I find a permanent bike.

Good luck

 

[zerogee]

E-beach, Harbor Freight Tools is an excellent source for cheep ebike stuff.

To wire your power supply you will probably need a voltmeter and be careful to keep the wires from touching. Any computer cord should do. I am not an expert but this is what I was told. The “L” wire should show 120vac to/across both the “N” and “G” wires. I was lucky because the “G” wires on my three power supplies all had green markings, which is usually standard. If this is not correct let me know. Here are 2 of my power supplies/chargers:

View attachment 3

View attachment 2


I also recommend these connectors because if you move your unit around the wires will break off.

View attachment 1


I found that these power supplies vibrate (fan) and the screws will come loose. You need to check them on occasion.

Good luck!

OK - may be I'm overkill on the checking of things - but I suspect that checking stuff is helping solidify my understanding and helping to keep errors at bay. I know errors are in my future - let's just hope there won't be any catastrophic ones!

So, I cut an old computer power wire and found the colors I hoped to inside (above picture). I then plugged it in and used a multi-meter to check the black wire against the screw of the plug cover. It read 120v. When I checked the white wire in the same way, it read 0. I guess black is hot. I'll assume all plugs in the United States are connected in the same way - so when I plug this puppy in black is always hot.

Are one of your flat prongs slightly bigger than the other?

If not there might be a 'L' ive, 'N' eutral, and ground symbol molded into the plug body next to the correct prong.

 

[OCMike]

I haven't yet but I am going to change the wiring set from the battery to the controller. I don't like what came stock with the kit. But I did get it to work here: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=50508&start=25#p752933 .

So to replace the stock wiring I think I need an in-line fuse. This is what I bought:



The in-line fuse holder says 30A 12/24VDC and the fuse says 30A 32VDC.

My bike is a 48V 1000watt yescomusa kit (completely stock except for this alteration and the fact that my power source is 12 cell LiPo). The volts I'll be running at are 42V - 51V. Did I get the right stuff?

Thanks!

 

[wesnewell]

What you really want with high voltage DC is a wide gap fuse because DC will arc a long way. Still that fuse should work ok. If worse comes to worse it will just melt the fuse holder. I wouldn't worry about it, I use an ATC blade fuse in my 88.8V system and it will probably melt too if shorted.

 

[OCMike]

I rode today for the first time. Just put the batteries (44.4v 8ah of LiPo) and the controller in my back pack. Tied the throttle to my handle bars and went for a ride. I rode the batteries down from 46.2v (factory charge) to 42.9v - no LVC - but when I got back home the stock gas gauge read EMPTY but after I let the bike sit for a few minutes it went back up to HALF. The stock computer power supply type connectors were very hot. The batteries were warm. The Anderson's were hot. The motor was luke warm. No hills but a lot of WOT. Might have gone 5 miles.



I guess that's sag? I wonder how close I came to the LVC? Does the controller allow for sag? Does the controller cut-off anytime you go under 42v or does it have to be under no load? If the latter, that would mean you could WOT and never hit LVC. There must be a good way to programmatically manage that - I wonder how it works?



Not really sure how to use of the volt meter while I'm riding - where do I hook it up? I guess I could add it to what's crimped when I crimp APP's onto the controller power input - where / how do you guys do it?

OK - gotto charge for my first time now - wish me luck ... I've got my fire extinguisher and LiPo bags. Garage has two cars in it now . Back Yard? In a LiPo bag in the house?

Those wires on the left in the above pic are freshly crimped from my computer power supply. They'll go to the power supply I bought to power the Thunder 1220. But I think I've got some crimping to do. The banana plugs that come with the Thunder aren't going to work. I think I'll use 30amp APP's - don't see a reason not to. They'll hook directly to my batteries. May be I'll get everything ready tonight and then do it (charge) tomorrow. Yeah, that's a good idea ... that way somebody might be able to alert me that I'm doing something wrong before I do it!

 

[OCMike]

What the hell?



I'm an idiot dare-devil!



I hope this thing knows when to stop! Because if it gets much past 51v, I'm cutting the power!

Actually, I think I know how to end charge manually.

I set it to 8000Mah ... it recognized 12 cells.

My ir for each cell is approx. 2.5 microOhms. I think that's not the greatest ... these are brand new batteries!

I do have a fire extinguisher near by. Don't you just love the use of clamps for power to the charger? What a moron I am! I do want to follow best practices ... that's not evidenced here I don't think. I just don't know what's right.

That dude on the video charged his gens-ace with no LiPo bag or anything. My batteries are brand new ... this must be OK?

 

[OCMike]

Sheesh .... 80 minutes!

Finally done!



Let's see ... am I gonna finish putting together my bike or am I just gonna throw it all in a back pack and ride?

Probably the latter.

 

[docnjoj]

I'm not fond of those 'gator clips either but they work for the R/C folks on their car batteries. I used masking tape around the metal parts of the clips and that helps avoid a short. Best practice is certainly to eliminate them with permanent connections to the wires in your power supply.
otherDoc

 

[OCMike]

I rode this AM instead of making the install proper. I downloaded an Android App - Sports Tracker. It uses GPS and keeps stats and stuff.

My top speed was 28.5mph. I went 11.69 miles. Damn, that was fun! I'm sure it will be "funner" when the install is done correctly (throttle mounted and stuff). Does the novelty wear off? I hope not!

My battery (12S1P - 8ah) read 49.5v at beginning of ride and 45.2v at end of ride. Using those numbers, the distance I rode and extrapolating for full charge (50.2v) down to full discharge (42v) I would get over 22 miles on a charge. That's freaking awesome! I pedaled some but not that much ... certainly not heavy pedaling.

btw - in top gear at WOT I can push by pedaling - it feels like I'm doing a cadence of 100+. But at least I'm pushing - I think my gearing is awesome! What luck!

Thanks wesnewell - you nailed it with every suggestion you made!

Thanks everyone!

e-beach - I owe you that Beer - I look forward to paying up!
mcintyretj - if you'd like to join us - the more the merrier.
classic94 - what about you? We gots to go for a ride!

Anybody else living in the Huntington Beach area - let's ride!

 

[OCMike]

I'm not fond of those 'gator clips either but they work for the R/C folks on their car batteries. I used masking tape around the metal parts of the clips and that helps avoid a short. Best practice is certainly to eliminate them with permanent connections to the wires in your power supply.
otherDoc

Thanks. The power inputs to the charger are banana plugs and the banana plugs plug right into the gator clips. I really didn't want to cut those banana connectors off - so the picture is the result. The charger to battery connection is sort of the same - bananas into the charger and some other tupe of plug for output. I chopped those off and put APP's. It was a tight fit with 30amp Anderson's.

The wires that come with the charger are all really soft and pliable. The 12 AWG stranded wire I bought from Home Depot isn't friendly. The cheap deluxe super fast wire stripper I got from Harbor Freight won't even strip the Home Depot wire. It had no problem stripping the charger wires.

 

[cal3thousand]

It's a drug... so your tolerance will increase with use.

Best thing to thwart that is to just feed the addiction. Voltage helps.

 

[e-beach]

Not really sure how to use of the volt meter while I'm riding - where do I hook it up?

It should be on your handle bars so you can easily see it when you are riding. Your controller has a connector for the voltage out put. When everything is plugged in properly you should have two unused connectors. The white connector with one red wire and one black one is your voltage output. Figure out a way to connect your voltage meter to it and mount it on your handlebars so you can see it while riding. Learn to read it when you are using your throttle. That is how you know what your pack has in it, when the motor is under load.

The wires that come with the charger are all really soft and pliable.

Probably silicone wires.

e-beach - I owe you that Beer - I look forward to paying up!

We will hook up this summer!

 

[OCMike]

Another Mickey Mouse Job -



It reads 49.6. And then I rode at 1am for a little over an hour and it says this:



after 15.9 miles. I totally see what you mean ... I nursed it towards the end. Gas tank runs out quick towards the end too.

Handle bars would be much better too than where I put it ...

Thanks!

 

[Tommy L]

Another Mickey Mouse Job -

Not "Mickey Mouse"...... we call it "Test" setup!
Now visualize a "Clean" install. It's easiest to see with the
"Test" setup in place


Tommy L sends.....

 

[e-beach]

Another Mickey Mouse Job...Handle bars would be much better too than where I put it ...

Time to let your artistry shine! Looks to me like you need to figure out how to put your "panel mount" volt meter into a small case that can mount on your handle bars.

It reads 49.6. And then I rode at 1am for a little over an hour and it says this.......after 15.9 miles.

1am? Somebody has that e-bike grin. :lol:

... I nursed it towards the end. Gas tank runs out quick towards the end too.

yep. The last 10% to 20% of the battery goes quick. If you haven't done so, google "zippy lipo discharge graph" and you can get a visual of how it works on a graph.

But by doing what you are doing, you are learning your distances. BUT, learn not to abuse your batteries if you want them to last longer. Full discharges will shorten the lifespan vs partial discharges.

 

[Ykick]

All it takes is one over-discharge of a single RC Lipoly cell to ruin your day, week, month, etc...

No expert but after 3 years with the same bricks I figure out the lowest capacity cell(s) in my pack and never allow those cells to get close to empty except for controlled test purposes.

And yes, they do change over time. Over time some good cells will go bad but can also be replaced with similar cells scavenged from spare or retired bricks. Best tool for monitoring IMO is a CellLog 8S with logging function which if you get the software working can help calculate cell IR during use and/or test loads.

Total pack volts can be deceiving if that's all you reply on to determine SOC.

 

[OCMike]

My first F'up. Well, to be honest, I did short my battery yesterday with alligator clips when I was checking the voltage. That's certainly a wake up call! This sh*t is volatile!

But this time I got my battery charging - takes about 75 minutes - and 10 minutes into it my charger starts beeping telling me my car battery is empty. I'm like "no it's not!" And you couldn't tell me that if it were empty because you'd be off (not to mention you're not even connected to my car battery)!

So, I'm scratching my head and looking at the situation - thinking f*ck I need to be not noob : those guys on ES know everything!

Then I notice my power supply is upside down - I've got the fan sitting on top of a brick facing the brick - I've suffocated the the power supply and overheated it. So, I turn it right side up (and it's freaking HOT). Reset the charger and write this post giving it time to cool down before I resume charge -- I'll do that right this moment. Hang on ...

Success! Charging resumed. But I've read you're not supposed interrupt a charging cycle. I hope that didn't hurt the battery too much.

My cat decided to help by keeping an eye on my charging house for me. Good cat! I hope she doesn't decide to nuzzle up to the alligator clamp situation that I haven't corrected!

 

[OCMike]

@e-beach & Ykick

What's considered over discharge? I let it run down to LVC (which I'm guessing is 41v) twice in a row - that's ~3.42v per a cell assuming they're perfectly balanced.

dogman's signature says this:

---------------------------
THE LIPO RULES. NEVER ABOVE 4.3V NEVER BELOW 2.7V DON'T PUNCTURE

Ideal charging /discharging range for Lipo, 3.65v minimum 4.1v maximum
---------------------------

If perfectly balanced I assume I've stayed well within range.

I can check the cells individually during charging. I didn't last time - I will now (it's charging as I write). It seems the Thunder 1220 only lets you go into cell information mode once during a charge - it doesn't let you back in if you exit cell info mode. Unless I'm doing something wrong.

Just checked ... battery IR is 34.7 mohms. Cells are within .1v of each other. Cell IR's are all 3.0 mohms or below. What that means, I don't know.

 

[Ykick]

@e-beach & Ykick

What's considered over discharge? I let it run down to LVC (which I'm guessing is 41v) twice in a row - that's ~3.42v per a cell assuming they're perfectly balanced.

dogman's signature says this:

---------------------------
THE LIPO RULES. NEVER ABOVE 4.3V NEVER BELOW 2.7V DON'T PUNCTURE

Ideal charging /discharging range for Lipo, 3.65v minimum 4.1v maximum
---------------------------

If perfectly balanced I assume I've stayed well within range.

I can check the cells individually during charging. I didn't last time - I will now (it's charging as I write). It seems the Thunder 1220 only lets you go into cell information mode once during a charge - it doesn't let you back in if you exit cell info mode. Unless I'm doing something wrong.

Just checked ... battery IR is 34.7 mohms. Cells are within .1v of each other. Cell IR's are all 3.0 mohms or below. What that means, I don't know.

"IF" can send these things Fireball. Better to KNOW balance rather than wonder and guess.

Taking them down to what you "assume" is 3.4v/cell (particularly at rest) is a HUGE risk. Lacking cell level montioring and/or protection I use much more conservative LVC - around 3.5-3.7v and that's with a pretty good idea if it's balanced or not.

Good luck, check your home fire policy....