Toyota Mirai - the fuel cell vehicle goes into production

[Ianhill]

P.S. Electrolysis is ~ 60% efficient at current tech and fuel cells 40-60%. Just adding those 2 unnecessary steps you waste 2/3rd of available energy or more.

Yes but hydrogen in one form or another is plentiful and its not electrolysis they use its steam and methane that makes the hydrogen at these refill plants, And if it is 2/3rds loss it is better than wind farms sitting idol producing nothing. I dont see any major plans for energy storage being built in my area, this would utilize the turbines down time and create cleaner cars, batterys have their place too but long distances could be covered by hydrogen users and local travellers stick with battery cars etc, mixed bag of fruit like the current petrol LPG and diesel we use now no one tech fits all there no possible way I could charge an electric car at my house sometime I have to park no where near my house the roads are to crowded for roadside charging.
Batterys have had 100's of years on hydrogen development so time will bring its cost down massively and bring it more In line in a competitive way but transferring all this energy through the grid will have its line losses and transformer losses so even that system you be lucky to get 85% of energy generated transferred through the grid with line losses and transformer losses and then stored in the batterys some distance away admitly its more effeicent all it needs is a Invertor and the motors happy as the hydrogen car then still needs to convert hydrogen again back to electric and then more losses in the car etc but it does work and it not like hydrogen reserves are low.

I know some people will say don't have a car and use a ebike, but i need to make a living and I can not fit 40kg of tools on my back and travel 20-30miles to the local worksite in welsh weather, The governments have invested massively in city's making lots of people travel to work further causing this logistical nightmare in the first place, I would never say open the coal pits again but the local work needed to be replaced locally and its not so until we can all work close to home travel we must.

 

[arkmundi]

Nice futuristic thinking! Currently 95% of hydrogen is produced from fossil fuels, every conversion step means efficiency raise for sure. But being uneducated me, I would suggest stick to electric. Electrochemical storage proved to be the most efficient (on cycle level) and better cells are coming in daily. Hydrogen seems to be just another investment distraction that slows down electric storage development.
Current reality is- using hydrogen= using fossil fuels, but less efficiently.

We live in a world of misconceptions, so need to constantly reinform ourselves. In part this is because things change all the time and we may be using an old preconception. One: while 95% of hydrogen is produced from fossil fuels is currently true, this is changing. Lot's a people are thinking about using renewables, primarily wind, to produce hydrogen as a primary storage medium and that makes a lot of sense. So as the hydrogen economy emerges, as it is, we'll be seeing the split of 95%fossil<->5%renewable split go more & more to the latter. And yes, electric storage development is a key.

Massachusetts and the US gov't DOE are providing incentives and they are big. Electric energy storage is increasingly important, so there are big bucks flowing into the R&D. Lots of companies are coming forward. It'll not be a one-size-fits-all kinda thing - they'll be all kinds of tech, from batteries to hydrogen to mechanical (think flywheels). Its an interesting topic that merits further insights.

And two: for the consumers driving electric vehicles, energy storage is an especially big deal. For range, weight, safety, all kinds of considerations. For that, I agree with Toyota and Rifkin that hydrogen may be the ideal. It'll be interesting indeed to follow the emergence for the next 5 to 10 years to see what transpires.

 

[Ianhill]

I totally agree, if it was truly about energy efficiency the gasoline engine wouldn't have dominated the battery car in early 1900's as they are even worse than hydrogen when fuel processing and the engines low 40% at best efficiency is taken into accout so I think the hydrogen car is a step in the right direction i dont think we will see it poison every inch of the planet with lead like its predecessor leave water droplets thats about it.

 

[parabellum]

I am afraid, we may not have another 100 years to figure out how not to waste 66% of available energy, just for convenience of refiling in 1 minute. Remember, you need to produce 3 times the energy in first place and it means 3 times more resources, more contamination, more pointless heat generation and what not.
There is only 1 right way, and IMHO its, pick the most efficient and direct technology and concentrate all resources in its development. Best candidate seems to be electrochemical, it is cycle efficient and does not require much of unnecessary and wasteful conversion steps. Sure its gravimetric energy density and charge rates must be improved to stop remembering the existence of fossil fuels and hydrogen.

 

[arkmundi]

Elon Musk is principal for both Tesla and SolarCity. The world he's helping to build is one with electric vehicles that come home and connect to the house for recharging. Where it'll have a Powerwall managing the charge state of home/car through the smart grid as necessary, but primarly with solar cells on the roof. He'll have the first gigafactory building batteries completed soon, both for the Tesla and the Powerwall. I listened to a talk of his recently where he stated that it would only take 10 gigafactories to produce enough battery for the entire world, car & home. Its a believable scenario.

 

[Ianhill]

Elon Musk is principal for both Tesla and SolarCity. The world he's helping to build is one with electric vehicles that come home and connect to the house for recharging. Where it'll have a Powerwall managing the charge state of home/car through the smart grid as necessary, but primarly with solar cells on the roof. He'll have the first gigafactory building batteries completed soon, both for the Tesla and the Powerwall. I listened to a talk of his recently where he stated that it would only take 10 gigafactories to produce enough battery for the entire world, car & home. Its a believable scenario.

The roof he proposed is a worse producer of energy than a well set up existing solar install on a roof ,the roof is at the wrong angle, panels are placed on non south facing parts making it harder to pay for themself and solar tiles are not a new idea , don't believe me listen to a well educated mans opinion.
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Elon musk is king of repackaging and a very good marketeer the idea does not stand up outside of very expensive luxury homes with their own driveways its a solution for the middle class the poorman is left out of this equation, he won't make no money from them. If he truly wanted to change the world then this power would be for all.

 

[arkmundi]

Just an example, not a promotion. Question is energy storage for mobility and whether fuel cells are more or less viable than batteries. Toyota is gambling on the fuel cells and Tesla is gambling on batteries. In part it is a question not just of energy storage media, but the infrastructure required to keep it all going. And public acceptance of that. And government(s) support for the build out required. The viability of companies is at state, so they are gambling hard. Elon Musk's play is huge and believable, but as yet unproven - that'll happen in 2017 as he attempts to roll out the Model 3, supplied by the Gigafactory. Toyota's play has a serious dependency on hydrogen refueling and that has yet to sufficiently scale. It'll be interesting to see how the big players fare in this world class game.

 

[Ianhill]

Just an example, not a promotion. Question is energy storage for mobility and whether fuel cells are more or less viable than batteries. Toyota is gambling on the fuel cells and Tesla is gambling on batteries. In part it is a question not just of energy storage media, but the infrastructure required to keep it all going. And public acceptance of that. And government(s) support for the build out required. The viability of companies is at state, so they are gambling hard. Elon Musk's play is huge and believable, but as yet unproven - that'll happen in 2017 as he attempts to roll out the Model 3, supplied by the Gigafactory. Toyota's play has a serious dependency on hydrogen refueling and that has yet to sufficiently scale. It'll be interesting to see how the big players fare in this world class game.

True it will be very interesting to watch the scenario play out, the nissan leaf has surpassed 100000 units sold in America too, so at the moment the car market is slowly going the correct way even if it is a bit defragmented with charging sockets etc, All these causes for concern are valuable the more we question the better the final systems will be.
One thing I can not deny is elon has made electric cars more viable and pushed them to be a wanted product not the ugly duckling the oil giants pushed the car manufacturers to make, he is his own man produces what he wants and that is a very good thing for pushing other company's to follow in his steps.