Triton's 2nd build - friction drive attempt

[tritonwow]

Good day,
I'm away from home and have been motivated by EVTodd and Kepler's builds. I figured I'd get a bike and monkey with it for the next two months.

edit: I really need to credit kepler, EVTodd, and evblazer for their previous work and sharing it on ES. It has made the build go much smoother.

2010 Diamondback Insight 700c
I'll need to get some meatier tires and that solid fork has to go! I haven't ridden a full rigid since high school and it hurt (good thing I brought my Thudbuster with me!)

 

[EVTodd]

I can't wait to see your build. It's nice to see friction drive taking over! :lol: Ok, maybe not but it's nice to see a few friction builds going on now.

What kind of motor and controller are you planning on using?

 

[tritonwow]

What kind of motor and controller are you planning on using?

I don't have alot of time for creativity so I went with the Hyperion, CC ICEHV60, Throttleizer, and two Zippy 22.v 5Ah bats. I'll be looking for a bearing and aluminum this weekend. If I get it working right I'll use the aluminum as a mold/pattern and build it up in carbon fiber when I get back home.

BTW I will most likely not change the front fork. That Thudbuster works wonders!

Triton

 

[tritonwow]

I went seaching for a bearing agian... at ACE this time. I found a butterfly gate latch which seems will work as a seat post mount. BTW I got funny looks at ACE but they were the most helpful of all the sotres I've been scouring for parts. The big chains suck.
I'll cut the butterflys off and use the existing holes as the pivot point for the motor swingarm.
I'm planning to attach a motor stop to the fender mount hole to stop the motor and protect the frame. I'll us a strap of some sort to let the motor fall just enough to get off the tire but not hit the seat tube. I just might make it a permanent mount though

 

[buzzfirst]

Very cool alternative use of an existing piece. Please keep posting pics as this is very interesting.

 

[EVTodd]

If I'm looking at the picture right wouldn't that pivot make the roller walk off the tire instead of into it?

 

[tritonwow]

If I'm looking at the picture right wouldn't that pivot make the roller walk off the tire instead of into it?

Good eye. I really noticed it yesterday after I got the butterflys off.
To use it properly with the angle of the seat tube it would have to be at the bottom which I can't do on this bike because the dreailer is a bottom pull.
I had planned on shimming the mount to create the correct pressure against the tire. Having the mount on the inside would better support the force (versus the u-bolt taking most the pressure)
I haven't given up on the mount as I have another bike back at home (worst case) or I might be able to finagle it into a lower position (with a different stop system).
Thanks for bringing it up as it should prevent others from rushing down the wrong road.
And now I'm back to reading all of the friction drive threads once again....

 

[tritonwow]

Mount attempt 2. The previous mount I tried would require too much fab work for my current situation (away from home, no tools, etc). I've used a small hacksaw so far and a pair of pliers and bought the cheapest drill and bits I could find for the rest of the assembly. I'll mail it back to myself when I return home.

I bought a seat post bike rack and hacked it down. I'll follow kepler's design model for the installation. I'll brace the seat post clamp with bits of aluminum to the bike rack mounts on the frame to crate a triangle. If I get it right I plan to slot those braces so I can move the clamp/seat up/down to adjust tension. If I ever left the bike in an area i was worried about theft I'd take the seat inside too.


I edited the first post too as this build would not be as easy as (so far) it is without the wonderful works of kepler, EVTodd, and evblazer.

Oh, I'll use the previous clamp in another build as I want a long bike but for the price of an extra cycle I think I'll put that money towards building a carbon fiber long bike.

 

[tritonwow]

A little pre drive train action.
!@#$ hobbyking!!! I ordered on the 20th, went to processing on 21st, I saw no announcement of their warehouse move (but it's over) and they STILL haven't processed or shipped my order!

 

[Kepler]

That new mounting config will give you the results you are after. I dont envy you though in building this device without a workshop and a good selection of tools. Best of luck. I think the fact that you didn't scrimp on the components will pay dividends though. Driving directly off the can needs a good smooth ESC and good current limiting which you have available with the gear you have selected. Todd's design I think is a little more forgiving and robust due to the driven knurled roller and extra drive grip this gives him. I believe this allows him to use a servo tester type throttle without to many problems.

One drawback I have found with this setup is engaging the drive too early is very hard on the drive and tends to rip up the bike tube sleeve. I am working on a way of getting around this at the moment by adding a drive lockout based on speed. The idea being that the friction drive wont start until the bike is traveling at a set speed of say 10kph. This isnt too hard to ride around but it can be garanteed that there will be times you accidiently throttle up from a stand still or at very low speed. However, when the drive is used above this speed and current limited to around 1000 Watts, its really in its sweet spot giving you great hill assist and some serious speed on the flats. I often push along at 50kph especially at the end of ride and I have some spare battery capacity left.

Which Hyperion motor have you gone with, the 40 series or 50 series and what kv?

 

[tritonwow]

One drawback I have found with this setup is engaging the drive too early is very hard on the drive and tends to rip up the bike tube sleeve. I am working on a way of getting around this at the moment by adding a drive lockout based on speed. The idea being that the friction drive wont start until the bike is traveling at a set speed of say 10kph. This isnt too hard to ride around but it can be garanteed that there will be times you accidiently throttle up from a stand still or at very low speed. However, when the drive is used above this speed and current limited to around 1000 Watts, its really in its sweet spot giving you great hill assist and some serious speed on the flats. I often push along at 50kph especially at the end of ride and I have some spare battery capacity left. ?

Thanks for the current limit info. Also, I started my motorized bicycle foray about two years ago with a Golden Eagle Bike Engine kit (35cc 4stroke) on a DB frame. They recommend rolling starts for engine longevity and it will easily carry over to the electric rigs. I always start off pedaling and I don't wack it WOT but it's always good to refresh the memory.

Which Hyperion motor have you gone with, the 40 series or 50 series and what kv?

CASTLE CREATIONS PHOENIX ICE 60HV BRUSHLESS SPEED CONTROL
HYPERION Z4045 14 TURN 236 KV BRUSHLESS MOTOR
Not creative but it looks like a simple setup following the prescribed method of use. The motor was $84 and now someone will burst my bubble and say I can find it cheaper!

I have two Zippy 6s 5Ah coming for 22.2V 10Ah pack I think it will suit me fine as an assist and I guestimate 8-10lbs total weight. (4lbs batteries)

 

[Kepler]

Thats a bargain for that motor so no bubble bursting here. Where did you get it from? You will be running a lower kv then me so your top speed will be a bit lower then mine. Around 35kph on 6S I would say.

 

[tritonwow]

Thats a bargain for that motor so no bubble bursting here. Where did you get it from? You will be running a lower kv then me so your top speed will be a bit lower then mine. Around 35kph on 6S I would say.

I got the motor here:
http://www.allerc.com/index.php?cPath=7_76_77&sort=products_sort_order&page=4

21-22mph is fine for this setup. I was looking for another way to beat the slight hills and headwind while commuting (if I keep it) or something simple to get my dad out there exercising.

 

[mr.electric]

The Zap dx bikes worked reasonably well. The motor bracket is mounted to the brake bridge in the top of the rear triangle. It hangs so that the motor kicks into place when the motors spin up. The drive pushes the roller tight onto the tire until one of the motor cans hits a plastic shim double taped onto the seat stay. when you let off the throttle the motor kicks out by its self no springs or levers to engage or disengage. It was the first Zap patent. I installed a couple hundred zap motors when I worked at the fisheman's warf zap store. I still have a few motor brackets and rollers laying around. The hinge point in the bracket needed a bit of friction to keep the motor from swinging around and for the auto engage to work properly. This was accomplished with 4 wave washers in the hinge. The lever was supposedly for regen but really it was for bikes with improperly adjusted motor brackets that would not auto engage.

 

[tritonwow]

I installed a couple hundred zap motors when I worked at the fisheman's warf zap store. I still have a few motor brackets and rollers laying around.

I'd be interested if you're willing to part with some brackets and rollers.
I've never seen that set up, thanks! I'll have to do a bit of googling now.

 

[mr.electric]

i'll take a look at my private reserve. I believe I have a dx and an sx bracket set maybe 2 or 3 rollers too.

 

[Kepler]

I havent seen that drive before either. Very nice design. Did a quick google on it. Looks like its out of production now. A revamp using brushless motors and the latest battery chemisty could possibly give it a new lease on life though.

 

[MrBoots]

I like the build plans and love the Diamondback Insight as an ebike platform - using an 2009 Insight 1 myself. Best of luck with the build!

 

[mr.electric]

I cannot find my old Zap parts. I will take another look soon. I gave away some parts a few months ago the zap brackets could have been in the box I gave away.

 

[tritonwow]

I cannot find my old Zap parts. I will take another look soon. I gave away some parts a few months ago the zap brackets could have been in the box I gave away.

No problem, thanks for looking.

I got the bearing in. There's about 1mm of play so I'm concerned about getting it dead nuts centered. Now I need to find time to cut up the aluminum sheet.

 

[mr.electric]

I have rethreaded sprockets and other shaft mounted parts with larger set screws. It does wonders for the holding power. I just remove the tiny set screw, drill the hole out to about double the diameter, rethread and make a set screw from a cut off bolt with a slot cut into it to use a slot screw driver to tighten it.
This may or may not help you center your bearing.

 

[tritonwow]

I was falling asleep and thought of an alternate mounting solution. "P"clamps on the seat stays, 1/8" aluminum plates up to the motor (cut to clear the brake bosses). I'm still mulling the stops (either up on the fender brace area or a couple of P clamps with built in stops each way. Thoughts?

 

[Kepler]

That could work quite well. What about a bracket that used the existing Vee brake mounting point but was sandwitched between the mounting boss and brake lever spacer?

 

[tritonwow]

That could work quite well. What about a bracket that used the existing Vee brake mounting point but was sandwitched between the mounting boss and brake lever spacer?

I'm going to go after mounting a friction drive off the brake when I return to my house (I have tools and stock available there). The width between the plates is within 1-2mm (with this bearing) of where angle would come off the brake bosses.

In the mean time I'm shamelessly copying the advanced system. I place another bolt through the sideplates to act as a stop versus a wire. The big concern I have is rotation and depth alignment of the whole unit if the seat moves.

And yes in my haste I had to redrill a bit but I consider it a prototype anyhow. I was thinking to mount the controller on one side and the throttlizer on the other to cover up the holes. I'll get to it again next weekend.

Triton

 

[evblazer]

Interesting how this is turning out. How much play is in that mount? At first glance I was thinking you'd need at least a bolt through down by the motor or it would just be popping right out the bearing side or is that what the stop bolt acts as that isn't shown? Hey you only have 3 screws in your motor did you just leave one out or did you pop out a threading too? Things don't like to be prototyped with my fat fingers
I'm actually thinking of doing a mount for my other bike somewhat like your mockup in the pclamp post but just haven't had the time to try it out so I don't know it if would be better/worse then your aluminum one shown in the last post just would fit the spot I can put it so am interested to see if you get to try it. One thought I had on that type of placement is to try and get a longer bolt or 4 for my magura rim brake mounts and mount the motor mount to there. I've seen a number of racks user a longer bolt and connect to an existing vbrake mount leaving the brakes working and a clean installation. Course my rear brakes are under the chainstay :|