Wanting to Convert

[kwilson115]

Hello All,
I am wanting to convert to an E-bike. However I have some questions. Please bear with me or the noob stuff.
ME: I am 46 yrs old in reasonable shape, I plan on using this bike as a work commute only.
Commute: 13 miles one way, level ground, lots of stop and go (Detroit area suburb).
Bikes to choose from: 1996 Raleigh MTN bike or 2002 Gary Fisher both w/ 26" wheels.

My questions...
Which drive, front wheel or rear wheel.?
Voltage, 24, 36 or 48.? ( I want to sustain at least 20mph, with 30% pedal only, and don't have to charge it for return trip)
Manufacture, why and what motor.?
Battery, Technology and setup. ( I have seen a video where a guy uses dewalt cordless tool Lithium ion batteries)
and any thing else I may have missed .

Thanks in Advance for Your answers and Your Patience in the Questions I'll will ask Later.

ken

 

[Drunkskunk]

welcome to the forum.

front or rear is mostly a matter of personal taste, but there are a few other things to consider. If the bike has an aluminum fork, forget using a front motor. Likewise, If the roads are extreamly rough, you won't want a front motor either. (Are Detroit's roads as bad as the reputation?)

But if you have a steel fork and smooth roads setting up a front motor can be easier.
I prefer rear wheel drive. It can be a little more complicated and chalanging to initialy fit the motor. there can be some hidden costs in changing out the derailer and chain line if your bike has a diffrent speed setup from what can be mounted on the motor, and sometimes it just bolts on, no problem.



20 mile range at 20 miles an hour is possable with 100% motor drive, a 36 volt, 20AH battery, and a Nine Continents 9X7, sometimes sold as a 2807.
At 36 volts, this motor would do around 22mph top speed, flat ground and no wind. With the throttle, you will be able to contribute as much or as little by pedaling as you wish. this motor would be fine at 48 volts as well, but may be faster than you want

 

[dogman dan]

Plan on charging at work, for one. The range you need, 26miles, will be hard to get with all the stop and go, which will hammer your efficiency.

Otherwise the recomendadtion above is spot on. Two 15 ah 36v lifepo4 batteries carried in panniers would get you the range for no charging at work, or riding slower. Range increases dramatically at 15 mph or less.

 

[retro]

Yeah, Detroit roads are terrible. I hit a pothole on I75 on my motorcycle with tractor/trailer bearing down my ass. This thing must have been 8" deep. Almost lost the bike, bye bye me. Fortunately bike and rider ok.

I'm pretty new to this too kwilson115 and have received lots of info on this forum. Doing our homework, I'm sure won't be disappointed when finally up and running. I looked into the dewalt idea myself, but from what I see, I don't think they will have the endurance to last 26 miles. 3ah per battery ??? would need plenty in parallel to cover your mileage. At >$100/battery you'd be better off looking for something made for the bike.

 

[Rifle]

If the roads are extreamly rough, you won't want a front motor either.

Why is that?

 

[DerekG]

^^^ Not really sure, however, most of your weight will be in the back so a front motor is much more likely to lose traction. That would be my guess... plus the fork is already taking a beating on the bumps and a front motor would not help this either.

This happens to me quite often on gravel (traction lose) if I'm not careful although if you do it right you actually get 2 wheel drive which helps a lot in the snow (as I found out for the past 3 days )

 

[kwilson115]

Hi All,
Thanks for the responses so far.
The actual drive won't make a diff to me.
Raleigh has steel front forks and Gary Fisher has Alum.
I plan on doing some of the pedaling, I'm not that far out of shape yet, tho maybe only 25-30%. and definitely on starting out
then using the motor.

I would rather get batteries that are designed for the job, just curious about the other.

Detroit roads are not as bad as they claim, they are worse. I run a repair facility, I see the damage daily.

The route chosen is fairly pot hole and rough road free, I like the idea of a pnp front wheel.,
but also the stealth factor of the rear version...
And top speed is really a non issue also, (I just don't know if I could keep my hands of the full speed ahead button), thus the
20 mph limit.
This forum has alot of knowledge and some nice folks, I have been lurking for awhile and reading alot.


Thanks Again
ken

 

[kwilson115]

I prefer rear wheel drive. It can be a little more complicated and chalanging to initialy fit the motor. there can be some hidden costs in changing out the derailer and chain line if your bike has a diffrent speed setup from what can be mounted on the motor, and sometimes it just bolts on, no problem.

Didn't think of the derailleur thing.... I might just go the front wheel way.
again, I figure to pedal the first 3-5 miles at a nice pace...about 8mph is my average, but I want to get there in under an hour. I can charge the batts at work, no problem there.


thanks

ken

 

[ecowheelz]

Ken,

If you're in the Detroit area, you should check out our shop! We're located in downtown Plymouth, MI. We have a wide variety of setups and options to choose from. If anything, you could come down and take a couple test rides to get the feel for an e-bike.

As far as kits, we carry E-BikeKit (Nine Continents) and Crystalyte. Both kits are more than suitable for flat Detroit-terrain where direct drive hub motors work great! Just have to find an appropriate battery to suit your needs. If you could charge after your 13 mile one-way commute, it would be easy and relatively affordable. But to get 26 miles you'll probably need a larger, more expensive battery -- and it will get heavier and harder to pedal.

Nice recommendations so far... the ES guys are great! Let us know if you'd like to come out and take a test ride...

 

[dogman dan]

There are a lot of pro's and cons to front hubs that get discussed endlessly, but here are a few things most agree on.

Steel dropouts, for sure. So new forks for the GF or use the other bike to go front hub. Though some do manage it, just don't put a front hub on an aluminum or carbon forks dropouts. Not even with torque arms.

A front hub can be easier to bolt on, with no gear issues to deal with like, my bike came with 9 gears in the cluster but only 5 fit on the motor wheel. Or, it fits, but I'll have to bend the frame wider.

A front hub can result in a better balanced ebike, with motor weight up front, and battery weight on a rear rack.

A front hub definitely makes it at least challenging if not impossible to pop the front wheel over a curb or a pothole like you used to do on a bike weighing 30 pounds or less. I think this is what was meant by the pothole comments. Also a bike weighing 85 pounds feels the bumps more than one weighing 30.

A front hub is less stealthy, but that's not an issue in most places for law enforcement. Where I live , what law enforcement? They just ticket the guys at the scene of an accident.



And now some of my opinions...

Many complain that a front hub spins out, etc, loses traction dangerously. I think those folks just don't know how to handle a two wheel vehicle. Sure it can feel a bit freaky if the front hub starts to slide instead of grabbing, but chances are you are going too fast, cornering on loose stuff, over throttling, etc. It other words, if it happens, it's your fault not the front hub. If it freaks you out too much, learn to ride. This comment applies to street riding, on steep dirt trails, fronties do have a tendency to scratch instead of grabbing.

When traction is good, like nice dry debris free asphalt, nothing feels as good as diving into a corner, and at the apex, applying traction to both wheels pedaling hard and throttling a front motor. It's just sweet to grab that much traction on a bicycle. My commuter, a cheap mtb allows pedaling through a corner without hitting a pedal on the ground. The feeling of the front hub pulling you into a corner is just sweeet

On the range thing, a good 48v 20 ah battery has the range to do what you want to at 20 mph. There are too many variables to predict whether it will be enough to do the job the way you ride, on the route you ride. I will say this though, it will be close, and some days you will pedal a very heavy ebike home without power. After 5000 miles of commuting myself, I can assure you that it will happen, and possibly more than you think. Sometimes chargers just shut off a bit early, or connectors loosen, etc. Then off you go with 3/4 of a full charge, and you are doomed on the way home. So charge at work if you possibly can. If that is impossible, a bike rack can allow you to drive a few miles from home, and ride the rest, leaving a 20 mile ride that is well within the range you have. Or as I said, slow down on the way home. At 15 mph, I get 30 miles from my 36v 20 ah battery.

 

[morph999]

I'll just put my 2 cents in. I got a GT Outpost Trail chromoly frame bike. I got a front 5303 hub motor. Everything works great but the bumps in the road are bad on this bike with this configuration. Maybe some maxxis hookworms tires would help smooth out the bumps. It's something to think about. At 20 mph, the bumps aren't so life-threatening but at 35 mph, you start worrying a little more about the bumps.

BTW, I've got two e-bikes, both front hub motors and I've never had a dangerous situation yet. No slipping. Nothing. As long as you are smart and don't do crazy things, you'll be fine regardless of which kind of motor you choose.

I find that as long as you have a little power left on the battery, pedaling home isn't that bad. I've pedaled home numerous times. It's not that bad and I'm not even in very good shape.

 

[moostrodamus]

I do a 24 miles a day commute, 12 to work, 12 back home over both glass smooth and pot hole riddled roads.

Over the last 3 years I've gone through a 3 very heavy (44lbs) 48v 14ah lead acid packs and also went through several rear rims, broken rear racks, fried batteries, a fried controller (my fault) and blown rear tires...let me tell you, if something breaks on the way to work or on the way home and you have to pedal, its a pretty tortuous ride lugging all that extra weight around, and even less fun sitting on the side of the road changing a tire or sitting with a spoke wrench trying to straighten a bent rim enough that you can limp home .

A big part of building my current bike was to make it as simple and bullet proof as possible, 48v 20ah ping battery to get me where i want to go without worrying if I'll make it, 9 continents 2807 to help me up the hills, and a Zipper fairing, because i don't like having cold hands.

Now, FINALLY, after 3 years of screwing around, I can just get on the bike, and ride to work, no worries, no fuss, no drama. Took this long for me to find this setup. With a new bike and all the various bits, this setup cost me around $2200 Canadian bucks.

Of course NOW I want a faster motor, a full suspension bike, and an even bigger battery....DOH! Yer gonna have fun with an e-bike that's fer sure... I wonder if there is such a thing as an "intervention" group for e-bike enthusiasts?

 

[swade]

I'm doing 37 miles a day round trip right now. I initially tried two 15ah 48v pings and it would just barely make the distance without charging. But it wouldn't have been enough in the winter or on a big wind day. I've got a huge hill as well to contend with. Two of them were too heavy for my bike. It was hard to control and these were mounted low in rear paniers. I now run two 10ah 48v pings and charge at work. Much much better. I'm using a 5304 rear motor as well. I'm very happy with this setup. Also, a 22amp crystalite pedal first controller.

 

[317537]

Front or rear depends on the strength of bike, and forks and depends on what side of the bike you need to concetrate on.

If you want to build an ultra light racing bike Id get a rear 700c.
If you want to build an SLA tank Id get a rear 26"
If you had a good stock bike with forks and it gets icey in your town/city, front hub seems to be a good choice.
If you want to feel the power in the strongest part of the bike and don’t plan to install a large pack on a back rack Id get a rear hub.
If you want to put a large pack on a back rack Id get a front hub.
If you like messing around with motors and stuff and like to do wheelies don’t mind hooning about an RC motor would be good.

Out of all the post I see and read without being biased, rear hubs are safest and front hubs can be plenty safe if you take some precautions, RC motors look cool and seem to kick along nice but are noisy.


Packs I would recommend at least a 48v 20ah lifepo pack. You travel 13 miles to get to work and don’t need to take too long.

 

[317537]

Two 15 ah 36v lifepo4 batteries carried in panniers would get you the range for no charging at work, or riding slower. Range increases dramatically at 15 mph or less.

This is the thing that gets me a little confused.

I agree that motors going slow get further on the same packs, and motors run more efficient faster. Throw in wind resistance and that just wrecks everything.

What are the trade offs in the real world.

13 miles going 15 mph could get awefull boring at an hour and 9 mins. Not counting hills or trafic lights or something. Id try cut that down to 45 minutes and gets the bike up to at least average 17mph and 20mph tops. Be nice to have a lot of torque in the low speed and good effciency in the high speed.

 

[dogman dan]

The real world does intrude quite inconveniently into our calculations. I find it real hard to ride 15 mph, but I have learned to do it for very long recreational rides. I only made it halfway to Colorado last summer, but it was fun to ride slow all day on scenic roads. Some of those NM back roads were pretty crappy so 15 was plenty fast on that surface. With all my batteries I had aobut 60-70 miles of range.

Commuting is a different story. I ride as fast as possible averaging about 27 mph downhill and 20 mph uphill, and pedal hard on a big chainring to get the motor into the happy zone as much as I can. Going downhill, I tend to use about 3/5ths of a 36v 20 ah ping, the motor is a front hub with a 22 amp controller. I get 15 miles to work in 45 minuites, or longer if traffic signals screw me. Coming home takes just over an hour. Coming home, a 48v battery would be nicer, since I climb a lot to get home. Depending on conditions, I use from 3/4 of a charge to all of it, and sometimes trip the bms within sight of the house. Winter is harsh, loss of range from cool, even at only 50F, combined with a seasonal wind change. So a lot of winter days it's uphill into the wind all the way home with a chilly battery. That's when running out from a charger glitch really sux. Back to speed, I was giving the speeds I ride, not the average speed including stop lights. Typical distance between stops is around 2 miles on this route.

The range solution is easy though, just find a way to charge at work. Then a 48v 15 ah battery should be big enough, or a 36v 20 ah. Both of those sizes have good range, and carry nice on a rear rack. Again, if charging at work is impossible, a 48v 20 might be enough if you do keep the speed at 20 mph. Using a motor like mine, (aotema front hub, 22 amps) you should be getting very close to 30 mile range as long as there are no big hills or tough headwinds. 25 mph would shorten the range signifigantly. Btw, 20 mph is pretty fast when you keep it up for a long distance. For me, it's fast enough to not be boring at 20 mph.

 

[kwilson115]

WoW, Thanks everyone for the replys.
moostrodamus, that is a nice looking setup......

My rides will not get boring...lol
I am just on the "other side of the street" literally, from Detroit.
I could go at least 50 diff ways to work, so i doubt it will be boring. ( especially if I choose the wrong way )
Jeremy@ eco wheels, I just may take You up on the test drive....very nice of You to offer.
Dogman..... great advice and write ups..... MY plan.... pedal till start to get tired, 3-4 miles... motor for 5 or
so until i get rested, pedal again....etc....
I would pedal from a stand still, and only use the motor when i get started.
36-48 seems to be the sweet spot for motor voltage.
front hub is fine, I like plug and play. ( maybe if the bug bites hard enough, i'll get a rear for the Gary Fisher)

Batteries are the only problem i seem conflicted with....
what to choose...... ??
which are the mediums....??
don't want cheap, but don't want expensive either...


thanks
ken

 

[OneWayTraffic]

When you install on the front hub make sure that the washers and nuts are absolutely 100% flat against the dropouts. Ebikes.ca has an install manual for their Ezee kit with some pretty good diagrams.

Any airspace could cost you a fork or a motor or a face or all 3.

 

[joe tomten]

I have 2 bikes with rear motors, and one with a front.

When I'm commuting (9 miles each way 48v 15ah ping) I like to cycle aggressively, and to do so I often find myself lifting the front wheel {or at least unweighting it} for manovering around potholes, and other road irregularities. It is an important part of my riding experience, and i enjoy the skillful feeling of this riding style.. I couldn't do this with a front motor.

The front motor bike is a tandem, ridden more sedately. The front wheel will never leave the earth, so i don't mind the weight being there.

joe

 

[dogman dan]

If you plan to do intermittent motoring, then a gear motor that freewheels might be best for you. Direct drive motors have some cogging resistance from the magnets that a planetary gear motor like bafang, eezee, fusin, or BMC won't have. Also the bike is going to be heavy. Take 30 pounds and strap it to your bike and go pedaling. My commuter, for example , is an 85 pound bike. No fun to pedal further than 2 miles. Most of us use the motor all the time. I do like to pedal hard myself, and then just back off the effort when I get tired. But the motor runs all the way.

Go for the test ride for sure. It's just too hard to imagine what an ebike is really like till you ride one.