WARNING - Do not ride the X5 through puddles or water!

[Mr. Danelectric]

I ordered two Phoenix Cruiser kits from electricrider a few months back. One motor failed within two weeks, and (after arguing) they refunded the money (minus a HUGE 15% "re-stocking" fee) because it was inoperable and filled with rust!

We were in Phoenix, AZ (one of the driest climates in the country) and NEVER exposed it to any water, let alone to humidity! I really believe they sent us a rusted motor from the start.

Anyway, on their HUB FAQ (http://www.electricrider.com/crystalyte/hubfaq.htm#Are your systems water proof?), it says, quote: "The motor is not waterproof, but water would have to be forced into it, and whatever gets in should eventually drain out the bottom. Repeated exposure to water over a long period of time may rust the magnets."

Well, I went riding in some light rain the other day. I didn't ride through any puddles, and water never splashed on the hub. I was (somewhat) careful. It got me home just fine. The next day, I tried to ride it and it would just sputter and die. It was inoperable. I took the cover off today and a LOT of water just came pouring out! I can see no place for any of the water to "drain out". It seems the water was shorting the electrical connections in the hub. It might have gotten me home, since I didn't stop: the centrifugal forces kept the water on the outer edges of the hub, away from the connections in the middle (just a guess).

Luckily I didn't see any rust in there. Should I apply liberal amounts of grease in there to prevent any rust in the future? I also wonder if there is a better way to waterproof it with silicone or something. I am sure it will work fine after I let it dry; I'll post updates.

So, please learn from my mistakes. If you ride through moisture, you have to take the motor apart to drain the water out. I hear that rust is the only thing that can kill these motors, so be careful.

 

[fechter]

I think most water would enter by dripping along the wires going into the axle. Make sure the wires go downhill immediately coming out of the axle and make a "drip loop" before going uphill. This forces drops to fall off instead of going into the motor. A wire can transfer an incredible amount of water over time.

Also make sure the axle is oriented so the wires exit on the bottom or as low as possible.

You could try to seal where the wires go into the axle, but that tends to be difficult. Vaseline or silicone grease might work as well as glue.

 

[swbluto]

This has me scared. I was hoping to avoid all waterproofing methods for the motor using the suggestions per Justin's troubleshooting page and just store it indoors:

"
Hall Problem due to Wetness

This is possibly the single most frequent problem that we've had to deal with selling motors here on the West Coast. Whether the motor is ridden regularly or even occasionally in wet weather, water manages to get inside the hub one way or another. At first this may have little or no effect, but over time the water starts to corrode the iron and aluminum inside the motor, and this corrosion makes the water electrically conductive. Even though the hall sensors are potted in epoxy, the wetness eventually undercuts whatever sealant is in place and effectively bridges between the hall signal line and the ground return. The hall signal is pulled up to 13V by a 30K resistor on the Crystalyte controllers, even a fairly weak bridge to ground can pull this signal down so that instead of toggling from 0V to 13V, the signal instead only goes from 0V to say 6V, and this is not enough to trigger the controller hall effect decoding logic. The result of a single hall effect signal failing is that the motor spins with a very heavy jerky motion, draws a lot of current, and is generally quite unpleasant to ride.
Hall_Circuit (3K)

People often assume incorrectly that this is the consequence of a damaged hall sensor but this is not usually the case. The sensor itself is just fine but the wetness has interfered with the signal that it outputs. Once the motor has been opened and thoroughly dried out again it will work fine, though after this has happened once it is generally more succeptible to developing the problem than it was originally. An apparent solution would seem to be sealing the motor against water entry, but at least from our experience this is not the case. A disproportionately high number of these failures occured on motors that had had the wire entry to the hub thoroughly sealed with silicone or other goop. Rather than keep the motor dry, water inevitably leaks in and is then trapped inside. Unless you can be sure that you have sealed 100% against water entry, it would be better to leave the wire port as is and to always store the bike indoors, preferably in a warm place, after riding in the rain so that the hub innards get a chance to dry out. "

I hope the motor's open enough to "get a chance to dry out.". What can get in can get out, right?(Especially in gaseous form, hopefully. )

 

[Mr. Danelectric]

I hope the motor's open enough to "get a chance to dry out.". What can get in can get out, right?(Especially in gaseous form, hopefully. )

I waited three days to open my hub after riding in the rain. I would say that half a cup of water came pouring out. The wires come out by first going downward as well as being protected by the steel stock front torque arm wire retainer thing. When I came home, the hub was hardly even wet. I really thought it was fine.

You could machine / drill vents in the side covers, for the water to evaporate easier, but so much water got in, that even after three days of being stored indoors, it was just fermenting rust. I would not rely on evaporation to keep the insides of these things dry. The way it's configured now, there is no way for the water to evaporate. Personally, I will never ride it in wet conditions, avoid puddles at the cost of swerving into traffic, and possibly open them up and place a heater fan on them on humid nights.

Venting the side covers would allow a lot of dirt and other debris in there, and I won't be doing that. Looking inside, the clearance of the magnets to hub are extremely close, so any foreign particles at all would surely scar your motor for life. You'd have to use an air filter of some sort if you vented the side covers.

I was just amazed when I saw how much water was actually in there. Like it was forced in, but it wasn't. It just somehow dripped in, while riding. Water is my electro-magnetic hub's enemy. This is quite the pickle.

 

[nomad85]

I've ridden in the rain quite a bit. The only issue I have had is when I forgot to tape over the halls sensor cable it got wet, and my motor cut out, once the cable dried out it was fine. I have a 407, so maybe its a different design, but I thought they were all pretty similar.
Can you use T-9 boeshield to rust proof a motor, or would that mess it up? I have a lot of it for my woodworking tools.
http://www.amazon.com/Boeshield-G2870-T-9-oz/dp/B0000DD1DV

 

[michaelplogue]

Maybe a couple of drain holes drilled around the perimeter, but normally kept sealed via rubber plugs. Would allow you to drain/vent the motor during regular maintenance or after riding in the rain. A couple would do (on opposite sides) - one for drainage, and another to allow the air in (or even to force air into via compressor).

 

[fifthmass]

Maybe a couple of drain holes drilled around the perimeter, but normally kept sealed via rubber plugs. Would allow you to drain/vent the motor during regular maintenance or after riding in the rain. A couple would do (on opposite sides) - one for drainage, and another to allow the air in (or even to force air into via compressor).

Also keep in mind the large amount of thermal energy stored in the pounds of copper windings in the casing (prob 15+ pounds in a 53xx series). My clyte 408 is warm to the touch for over two hours after riding. That internal heat combined with the drain and vent openings you mention should do the trick just fine . Storing the bike indoors in the winter will help lots as well because of extremely low relative humidity in northern winter climates.

Regards,
Bill

 

[swade]

Maybe a couple of drain holes drilled around the perimeter, but normally kept sealed via rubber plugs. Would allow you to drain/vent the motor during regular maintenance or after riding in the rain. A couple would do (on opposite sides) - one for drainage, and another to allow the air in (or even to force air into via compressor).

Also keep in mind the large amount of thermal energy stored in the pounds of copper windings in the casing (prob 15+ pounds in a 53xx series). My clyte 408 is warm to the touch for over two hours after riding. That internal heat combined with the drain and vent openings you mention should do the trick just fine . Storing the bike indoors in the winter will help lots as well because of extremely low relative humidity in northern winter climates.

Regards,
Bill

Plugable drain holes - good thinking!

Curious to hear more thoughts on whether its a decent idea. Water = my number one issue in my first year, lost a couple of good 408's to it. I ride home up a big hill and the 408 gets very warm too for quite a while afterwards.

 

[fechter]

If the drain holes are relatively small (<6mm), there should be little chance of anything getting sucked in. I run my BMC motor (non-hub) with 7/8" vent holes and have not had a problem with stuff getting in.

It still seems quite odd that so much water could get in. Though where? The cracks on the side covers are glued on with the paint so bad they could hardly leak. Gravity would help keep those from leaking in anyway.

My experience with gluing the entry hole for wires is that it will still leak. The X5 also has a heat shrink sleeve around the wires coming out. Water could still get in where the individual phase wires go into the sleeve. Getting glue into the space between wires in a bundle is very difficult. I agree that it is better to not glue it and leave a vent for things to dry out.

 

[michaelplogue]

I did a quick search for rubber plugs that have a decent flange in order to keep them securely in the hole. Not much luck so far but will continue looking.

It may be difficult to keep something like this in the hole considering the centrifugal force from the spinning hub, so another option could be to drill and tap the hole and use a short bolt (with Locktite) instead.

 

[michaelplogue]

.

Here's a rubber plug that might work - fits a 1/4" hole.

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/RF-49/1/2-PRESS-FIT-RUBBER-FOOT/-/1.html

 

[RLT]

Hey, thats great. Thanks!

 

[Mr. Danelectric]

Even though the hall sensors are potted in epoxy, the wetness eventually undercuts whatever sealant is in place and effectively bridges between the hall signal line and the ground return. The sensor itself is just fine but the wetness has interfered with the signal that it outputs.

This must be exactly what happened to mine! It must be why it got me home, but after letting the moisture "seep in" and soak the hall effect sensor's epoxy all night long got 'em just gooey enough to conduct.

Okay, dried it out, and at first it was intermittently working. It would cut-out and stop, then pick up and spin very jerky and then stop... After letting it dry out even longer... It started working perfectly. During my ride, it cut out once (very far from home) but then caught on and started working fine for the rest of the ride.

It was dry, but still humid inside. I think the humidity alone caused the Hall Effect sensor to ground out.

I am ecstatic that nothing was fried! This was by far the BEST ride yet. I had almost forgotten what it was like to have all the speed of the X5 motor, after riding my BOBSLED with a wimpy 36 volt geared hub motor with a cap at 15 mph. A HUGE difference! HUGE!

Oh, and forget the drain plug idea. There's no clearance to put it anywhere where it will do any good anyway. Venting the side covers is a much safer way to allow evaporation. Also, you could drill the side covers away from the magnets, with them removed. Imagine how much metal would stick to those magnets if you drilled anywhere near them - you'd never be able to get it all out - unless you had a much more powerful magnet maybe... They'd clang together and you'd never get them apart.

Another thing - I don't recommend taking the side covers off the X5 either. It was a little rough getting them seated perfectly. A little soft-faced hammering did the trick - you gotta really line it up straight and LIGHTLY tap around it in a very even fashion.

I recommend having two electric bicycles: one under-powered, so you constantly appreciate what the X5 does! (Before I got the 36 volt, I was beginning to get used to the X5 and started wanting even more speed )

So, for me, the raw awesomeness of the X5 outweighs the shortcomings in the water-proof area. I'll deal with NEVER exposing it to any moisture to have the most awesome ride I've ever dreamed of. (I don't mind it, with proper rain gear, but who really wants to ride in the rain anyway?)

 

[dogman dan]

Try some aluminum duct tape. Found in the hardware store, its used to tape up hot ducts, like the flue of a gas water heater. It has good heat and water resistant glue on it, and will stick real good without getting sun damage. it comes in a roll with a paper backing so you could carry a few pieces cut into the size you need. I think that water got into the motor by dripping down the wire under the sleeve. Tape up the whole area where the motor plug and the start of the sleeve is. water on the outside shouldn't run uphill past a drip loop, but once it is inside the sleeve, it could easily get forced in.

Another favorite of mine for waterproofing is called high vacume silicone. It's a chem lab item used to seal the glass valves on dr frankenstien glassware assemblies. Basicly its a silicone version of petroleum jelly, but much much thicker. unlike silicone 1 caulking, it doesn't harden so you can still dissasemble stuff.

If you really want to glue something shut permanent, the real deal stuff is household raingutter caulking. This is the ganja stuff and will stick permanently to anything, including poylethylene and vinyl! This stuff blows away any kind of silicone caulking. I have glued fin boxes into polyethylene surfboards with this stuff with no failures.

 

[diver]

here in fl i have three trikes with the x 5 motors, Ive yet to have a water problem with the motors and it does get humid here. I will admit that Ive never got caught in long hard rain but have been in rain. I have not sealed the wires, one motor i had to replace the halls but it was a controller issue that was cause by me tinkering with the controller. I guess I'm just lucky. I would seem to me that if one did drill a couple of holes in the side covers and epoxied some fine screen over the holes it would allow it to drain plus one could take a hair dryer to it to help dry out the halls if needed. I don't think rust would be a problem if one road there bike once or twice a week so as to not allow rust to build up.

 

[knoxie]

Hi

Yes they can rust, have seen this on a few, on my X5 I coated the insides with this stuff.

http://www.sportouring.com/main.php?group=acf50

Its not missed a beat in a couple of years, I ride in British rain (we are famous for rain) I sealed the motor lids totally with rubberised gasket sealant the sort of thing you seal head gaskets with, I also used self amalgamating tape around the flat plastic axle washer and the leads, the lead is pointing down so no water can run in.

I would recommend sealing them totally if you can, its the best option, I opened it 6 months ago when I did the torque arm, there is still no rust or water, gave it another blast of ACF 50 and put it back on.

ACF 50 is used on aeroplanes, they spray the stuff everywhere, it stops corrosion dead and you can get it in liquid form so you could theoretically vaporise it in to the hub without removing the lid using a straw.

Knoxie

 

[Mr. Danelectric]

I'm truly amazed at all the responses stating that people ride in the rain without problems. The ONLY thing I did was ride in the rain. (I'll admit, it was steady rain for about an hour or so) Here it is, day three since riding in the rain, and I'm having major issues with it. It basically won't run. It's doing that intermittent thing where it's been described as a hall sensor problem. It's been inside, near the heater to dry, but it's not working.

This is the FIRST and ONLY time it has even gotten wet. I've read about people doing it, so I wanted to test it out. It's BROKEN, because I rode it in the rain!

All the waterproofing ideas are great, but the part where the axle doesn't spin and the covers do spin - you can never really water proof that area too much and by waterproofing, you will limit it's ability to evaporate.

I'm pretty amazed that I seem to be the only one that has had these water issues. And it's totally destroyed my entire e-biking world. It's been out of commission for three days, because of a little rain.

I guess if it doesn't magically start working, I'll have to either send it to electricrider for a hundred dollar service or something, because water damage is not covered. Or I'll have to figure out how to change hall sensors and find someplace to order some. Either way, my bike will be down for like a month. It just seems so fragile.

 

[Zoot Katz]

Do you have any way to test the Hall signals?

Just asking because the symptoms I was experiencing with my X5 sounds similar to yours.
From what I'd read, I thought it was a Hall problem too but it turned out to be the controller.
The bike had never been ridden in the rain when the problem started. Then it would just as mysteriously stop and everything would be working again.
Do you have a spare controller that is known to work? Try it in place of the one that's on there.

But still, a half-cup of water inside the motor doesn't sound good.
Are the side covers warped or are there any imperfections in the mating surfaces to explain how the water gets in?

 

[philf]

Justin experienced the water thing crossing Canada - quite early on. Fortunately, his handy-dandy controller seamlessly switches over to sensorless mode when the Halls get erratic. He wasn't SURE that water was the culprit until near the end of his journey, when the bike stood overnight for several hours at sub-zero temperatures. The water froze, and the wheel was locked solid...

I've always tried to avoid water/wet conditions with my rig - thinking that I was being over cautious. Apparently not...

 

[Mr. Danelectric]

Do you have any way to test the Hall signals?

Just asking because the symptoms I was experiencing with my X5 sounds similar to yours.
From what I'd read, I thought it was a Hall problem too but it turned out to be the controller.
The bike had never been ridden in the rain when the problem started. Then it would just as mysteriously stop and everything would be working again.
Do you have a spare controller that is known to work? Try it in place of the one that's on there.

But still, a half-cup of water inside the motor doesn't sound good.
Are the side covers warped or are there any imperfections in the mating surfaces to explain how the water gets in?

I don't currently have the knowledge of how to test the hall sensors. I don't have another controller either, to test that either. If it's the controller, that should set me back a cool $300. Unless I learn to repair it... I will check fechter's technical section for that info, while I wait to see if it ever works again.

Zoot Katz, what was the cause of your controller problem and what did you do to resolve it?

Nope, the side covers are perfectly mated flat to the hub. The only think I can think is where the axle comes out and the wires go in... Weird.

 

[Zoot Katz]

I don't currently have the knowledge of how to test the hall sensors. I don't have another controller either, to test that either. If it's the controller, that should set me back a cool $300. Unless I learn to repair it... I will check fechter's technical section for that info, while I wait to see if it ever works again.

Zoot Katz, what was the cause of your controller problem and what did you do to resolve it?

Nope, the side covers are perfectly mated flat to the hub. The only think I can think is where the axle comes out and the wires go in... Weird.

In my case, the controller was replaced under warranty.
justin_le tested the Halls by splicing in a pair of connectors, joined by single wires, and then probed those to get his meter readings while the bike was on a stand with its motor spinning. The controller still sorta worked it's just that it was really rough and unreliable.

 

[Mr. Danelectric]

really rough and unreliable.

It's turning out that about sums up my entire electrical bicycling experience. My second X5 (system) to fail within three months and these were my first endeavors into this whole phenomenon.

I'm sort of feeling like quitting while I'm ahead (yeah right, more like before I waste any MORE money) and say, "It was a fun ride, but time to move on." I'm upset, because I've played it safe: I've never over-volted anything. I've always had fuses and I've spent so much money, but much more time on this thing.

So, it looks like I'm stuck. Until I can send parts to unknown places and ask people to gouge my wallet for repairs, or just buy another controller, or motor - just keep buying more stuff until it works again.

 

[nomad85]

try a different supplier. ebikes.ca is a good one. They have a 9-continents kit for only $450 that includes a Cycle Analyst. I got my crystalyte kit from them and I havent had any problems. And if you decide to try another Lithium Battery, get a Ping, or better, otherwise you'll end up regretting it. Headway or PSI may be the best bet for long term satisfaction. If you want some SLA I have 24 new cells for sale (5.5ish pounds 9 Ah)I'll take any reasonable offer

 

[philf]

Figuring out if you have a Hall sensor that has just plain failed is reasonably simple if you have a multimeter.

The most common wiring scheme for Halls has 5 wires. One will be a ground (usually black), one will provide power (usually 5V, and usually red) and the other three will be the signals returned from the actual sensors.

How you elect to gain access to the signals is up to you - I've had occasion to power the Halls directly from a 5V power supply and read the signals in the connector. I've also done this with the entire bike powered up normally, but with the controller out of its cover - measuring the Hall signals where they attach to the controller PCB. And, lastly, I've even tapped in to the sensors by pulling the three signal wires out of the connector shell, leaving +5V and ground connected to the controller and measuring the signals from the now "flying" leads...

However you do it, you should be able to see each sensor flip between low and high as you rotate the wheel by hand. If you consider that there are three wires, and look at the signals coming back as bits of data, there are technically 8 possible "octets" you can get from the array. In reality, two of these are invalid and should never happen (you shouldn't see all three Hall sensors "low" at the same time, nor should you see them all "high"). So you're left with six combinations. Typically, the sequence looks something like this as you rotate the wheel:

Step 1: S1
Step 2: S1 and S2
Step 3: S2
Step 4: S2 and S3
Step 5: S3
Step 6: S3 and S1

(edit - I tried posting this as a table, but it didn't display correctly).

(Of course, this is assuming you've arranged the signal wires in the order that the sensors are installed in the wheel, but you get the idea).

If the wheel passes this test, your troubles are likely controller or connector related (most often the latter!). And, of course (again!), if you've NEVER had the thing operating smoothly before, then you may have the Hall wire and/or phase wires in the wrong order.

 

[The Stig]

Hmmm all this has me worried about how waterproof the BMC 500w is. I did a quick forum search but nothing came up. Does anybody know how good BMC are with waterproofing? I ride in the rain when its not uncomfortably wet.