What do you think of this bike?

Yeah, it seems like a good deal since it comes with a 36V 10Ah lithium ion battery. The setup looks pretty clean too. One of the cleaner bikes I've seen. Hard to tell on the quality though. Thanks for the reply Drunkskunk. Anybody else have an opinion or insight?

Thanks and take care,
Rob
 
I think it is a very sweet bike.. I wish i found it. I think i would end up adding a bigger motor on down the road. But that is very clean and plenty fast enough .

On the up side the small motor is ultra discreet And with a very nice battery. I think the batter and charge would run almost 500. I like the way it is on the bike since you still get to use the back rack .. And it is soooo light for a e bike.. It also has a head light.

I know it is 700 bills but that is not to much when you think the battery alone is almost 500 and all that other stuff really adds up quick . Headlights and more..
 
Hey thanks for the feedback Arbiker! I've been doing a lot of research on building a bike but it seems kinda difficult to build something that is clean looking. This bike looks pretty stealth which is what I'm looking for and might be a good platform for modification in the future. I'm not sure of the quality though. I like how the battery locks onto the bike, is small and light, and the motor should be quiet. If I modify it with something like a 407 and 35+A and 66V+, it could still look pretty stealth. The integrated rear brake might be a bit of a problem for upgrades though. I'm thinking that batteries will get smaller in the future and I'll be able to fit an upgraded battery in the lockable battery box when I'm ready to modify. If anyone else has an opinion or insight, please chime in!

Thanks so much for the dialogue,
Rob
 
Rob,

I also think it looks like a nice kit. Might be a little underpowered but like you said maybe you could upgrade in the future. I was interested in this kit enough that I called them and tried to ask questions. I say tried because the answers I received didn't make me all that comfortable. Since I couldn't find one review on the net I asked him if he had anyone willing to give me positive review. He said they don't do that because something about the web giving out dis-information. I wasn't really excited about that answer and was still tempted but........... Without a review and without any kind of positive vibe from the guy I decided to pass. I loved the fact that it had lith batts and all.

Not to discourage anyone from anything. I'm very interested in finding out what it's all about and would very much like to see a review of this. I just wasn't willing to be that person.

kyakdiver
 
Thanks Kyakdiver for the extra research. I should have gone that far. Makes me even more hesitant on the quality issue. Here's some other bikes I've looked into for a starter kit but with good options for upgrade. What do you think?

http://www.allwebscooters.com/0286.asp

I like the large battery box of the 36V version for future upgrades to the battery. Don't think the battery locks to the frame though. Would prefer aluminum frame, gears, brushless hub motor for quiet drives(can be upgraded though), and front disc brake.

http://www.rmartinbikes.com/e300.html

I actually like the easy going step through frame. I also like the large lockable battery box that would allow easy and graceful battery upgrade. I dig the brushless motor and the front suspension. Don't like the 22" wheels, hard to find tires, harder to upgrade motor. I also don't like the lack of gears.

http://www.rmartinbikes.com/izip_urban_cruiser_electric_bike.html

I like the disc brake, the easy going cruiser style, front suspension, the lockable battery pack, and the gears. Would prefer aluminum frame, hub motor for quietness, non-sla battery, and battery locked to frame rather than rack.

http://www.thesuperkids.com/noname3.html

Similar to above. Differences: I like the aluminum frame, I kinda prefer the laid back style of the cruiser especially in a powered bike.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Schwinn-Sting-Ray-Spoiler-NEW-In-Box-No-Reserve_W0QQitemZ290194155912QQihZ019QQcategoryZ95155QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I've thought about modifying something like this to electric. I like the front and rear disc brakes, aluminum frame, the long wheelbase, the wide rear 20" wheel for getting more torque to the ground w/ a hub motor. I'd add a 405, 406 or 5303, 72V 40A controller, and a 66V 4.6 Ah a123 power supply. The dropout on the rear is wider than average which could be a problem. Also, It might be hard for me to make it look as graceful w/ a battery pack and controller as it does without. Would also be more head turning than I'd prefer.

Thanks so much for the dialogue and please chime in,
Rob
 
Also.... It's $799 plus $100 shipping. For $900 you could get a nice kit with nimh and a new walmart bike ..... Might not have lith now but you could upgrade to your hearts content down the road.

kyakdiver
 
Yeah, I was thinking a bike like one of these w/ a 407 and a 72V 35A+ setup might work good. I'd like full suspension, aluminum frame, laid back riding, a light powerful battery that locks, and disc brakes. Trying to get it all I guess. I think it might be possible though.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3610588
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5585804
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2061606

Thanks again, take care, and happy new year,
Rob
 
Rob Mcgregor said:
Yeah, I was thinking a bike like one of these w/ a 407 and a 72V 35A+ setup might work good. I'd like full suspension, aluminum frame, laid back riding, a light powerful battery that locks, and disc brakes. Trying to get it all I guess. I think it might be possible though.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3610588
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5585804
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2061606

Thanks again, take care, and happy new year,
Rob
Click to expand...

You realize how fast a 407 at 72v is going to be, right?

Bike1, Bad Idea. I just bought one of those to evaluate, and found it to be so poor of quality, I wouldn't let a kid ride it, even unpowered. The headset fell apart, and the shocks have no rebound controll, and the lowers are only press fit on. they could seperate and fly off if the front wheel came off the ground.

Bike 2, Nice Bike. only a 1 inch headset, but the front fork is at a nice steep angle, so it should be stable at higher speeds

Bike 3, Worse than the first. its full suspension, but the rear bottom has no pivot point. it relys on the bottom arms flexing for its spring and movement. the frame isn't spring steel, so it has a short life ahead. it also has only 1 inch of travel, so its effectivly useless. a nice suspension seat post would do more.
 
Yes, I realize how fast 66V+ 35A+ is going to be. The thing is, I test rode a Schwinn World GSE electric bike which was very impressive. http://www.schwinnbike.com/products/bikes_detail.php?id=887 However, I saw room for improvement. It cut power at 18mph. That is faster than I've ridden a bike since I was a kid, but I craved even more speed. Also, at 18mph I could feel every bump in the road. Showed the benefit of full suspension. Also, 18 mph made it feel like I needed even better brakes, even though I wanted to go faster. The weight seemed about right but I wouldn't want it much heavier because it was pretty heavy, even at under 50 pounds. Also, the mountain bike style could be more comfortable, like their Campus model or any cruiser or comfort style. Finally, the price was very hefty. So, I want a build a bike that is impressive to your average smart person. Light, powerful, fun, comfortable, graceful and affordable. I want people to want to convert to electric bikes, not whisper, "He's a crazy treehugger on an obnoxious looking bike that he spent too much money on." So I'm trying to figure out something that is basically good for the everyman/woman. I very much appreciate all the input and will steer clear of the models you advised against. Please feel free to add to the dialogue and happy new year!

Thanks soooo much,
Rob
 
The best looking ebike I've seen is DeeJay's Revive:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?&p=41455&#p41455

file.php


If I didn't think I'd get mugged for it, I'd get one myself. :?

(I might try and build the ghetto version, tho. 8) )
 
That's pretty cool looking. However, I was hoping to work with something that is more stealthy and doesn't turn heads. Might get a little better aerodynamics from that bike. Looks comfy!

Take care and thanks,
Rob
 
Why do all off-the-shelf ebikes look like Grandma bikes? (No, I don't mean DeeJay's revive, which looks like a SPACESHIP :shock: )
 
Did you see the link on the bike from the original post on this thread? I don't think it looks like a grandma bike. What do you think? I appreciate the dialogue.

Thanks and take care,
Rob
 
It ain't that bad, imo.

I appreciate the fact that the seller provides high detail images... Many don't have pix good enough to see what yer getting.

I'm biased toward FS bikes, but the bike in question seems decent. I'd be interested to see it apart... 8)
 
What an honor to be mentioned, cheers TD!

I don't want to hi-jack Rob McGregor's post so I'll post my whacky Revive ideas in the Ebike General Discussions

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3035
 
Hi Rob

I think its ok looks-wise: it resembles the Ezee Torq (top image - & I don't think it looks like a Grandma bike :lol: ), although that has 28" wheels & a front 570W (gross, peak) motor.

I'd also wonder about the quality of parts, battery etc, for the price, and although the motor may be underpowered/overgeared for hills (is that 400W gross or net? Hopefully net, given its a 36V battery: if current limit is 15A then its net, if 10A or so then its gross) which is ok if you use mainly on flat/gentle slopes, using even a reasonable quality lithium at speeds around 20mph could greatly accelerate its chemical exhaustion & lead to a short battery lifetime: I'd find out anyway about replacement battery availability & cost, or better still if there's a NiMH alternative, and ask about support too... given what kyakdiver said, I'd be a little cautious :). Ebike running costs should be low, but can vary hugely depending on things like replacement battery frequency & cost etc. & lack of support can scupper a bike full stop, unless you can DIY! :roll:

I've realised in my 1st year ebiking that speed & hills are the two main drains on power: power requirement & hence battery weight increases exponentially with the speed you want to go & in proportion to an uphill gradient in addition, unless you can improve aerodynamics etc. since its mainly air resistance you are overcoming above 12mph/20km/h. Also consider the efficiency of the motor at lower speeds or uphill - inefficiency here also wastes a lot of power if you have hills or stop/start a lot. Geared motors (puma, ezee etc.) have batter torque & efficiency at lower speeds for these, while direct-drive hubs (crystalyte, bionx) are a bit more efficient at high revs due to lack of gearing resistance. However, using higher voltage and/or rpm motors, or gearing up by using bigger wheels will always reduce efficiency at moderate or low speed, relative to the top speed, so if you do use high voltage with a normal rpm motor, you'll wasting a lot of power due to inefficiency for much of the time you are accelerating, which will add to the power you need & so the weight of bike required for high speeds.

Since no batteries are really light - a good capacity 36V battery will weigh 2.5 to 5kg at least - and the lighter ones will likely cost much more and/or may need replacing more often, I'd consider how fast, how far you want to go & how hilly your terrain before choosing if weight is an issue: you can't build an ebike which is very light, powerful & fast and long-distance - its just not possible! (unless you're lance armstrong, or at least prepared to pedal a lot!):D.

For example, my bike, an Ezee Torq, weighs about 50lbs or so (incl. battery & accessories) and I also wouldn't want it any heavier, and for my needs & terrain the balace of power, weight, speed & efficiency are just about right. Top speed around 22mph (geared, brushless motor) no pedalling, a 36V 9Ah NiMH battery weighing around 5kg gets me (with easy/moderate pedalling) about 15-20miles @ 20mph, 30miles @15mph or even 40-50 miles on the flatter ground if I pedal a fair amount & reduce speed for some of that. Its limited to around 10% gradients though with full power, full throttle no pedalling expect only around 10 miles or so & in hillier areas you'd only get around 12 miles tops however much you pedal, if you can keep going! :roll: :)

I hope thats helpful to you.
 
Hi and thanks Josh, Tyler, Dee Jay, Drunkskunk, and Kyakdiver,

It does seem the EZ/Puma motor decreases to about 50% efficiency at 10 mph at high voltage from about 60% at 36V. The Crystalyte motors seem to to have equal efficiency (around 70%) at high or lower voltage at 10 mph, at least according to the hub simulator. It also seems the EZ motor will be more efficient at acceleration and hill climbing. Here in Florida, it's pretty flat. I'm thinking I could accelerate w/ human power and sustain speed w/ the motor to improve efficiency, range and battery life. I also like the idea of a quiet bike that a non-geared motor can provide. Is the EZ quiet?

I'm not that concerned with lots of power to start with. I don't expect an off the self bike to have lots of power. I figure I can always modify in the future if I want. Lower power might help with longevity of the battery and range too. I've heard average full human power to be about 200 watts (not Lance Armstrong), so 250+ watts sounds fine to start with. What do you think Josh?

Tyler, you say you prefer full suspension bikes, right? That was my impression also when I test rode the Schwinn electric bike. Seems it would be a better ride w/ full suspension. When I offered 3 Walmart bike choices, Drunkskunk advised against the two FS bikes and preferred the non-suspension bike. What do you think?

As I'm sure you can tell, I'm on the fence whether to build a bike or buy an off-the-shelf gracefully put together bike.

Thanks so much for the dialogue. The internet really is amazing for this sort of special interest. Thank you, thank you, thank you and please chime in.

Take care,
Rob
 
Yes I think you're right about efficiency of crystalyte vs ezee on the simulator, Rob: I suppose one advantage of geared hubs is the extra torque & hence faster acceleration they can offer over non-geared motors at low to mid speed and reduction of time spent running the motor at its least efficient slower speeds. As you say though, for a flat area & a rider willing to use legpower for low speed torque, the non-geared motors can probably be more efficient, and quieter - Wile E. Coyote has the ezee conversion kit and says the ezee makes an audible whirring which is tolerable, hardly noticeable in traffic and not offensive: the original ezee Torq motor is similar and actually becomes quieter as you gain speed. So fairly quiet, but audible - due to metal gears I think, not nylon. Geared motors also tend to be pricier, but they are lighter too at around 3.7kg or less (motor only) - another consideration for overall weight.

Power considerations: remember to allow for motor inefficiency losses, e.g. to get 300W out at the wheel you'd need 400W going in at 75% efficency, or 375W at 80% motor efficiency. Also speedwise, 250W net should get you around 20mph, but because of a hub motor's power curve the peak power will be higher than that and occur at a lower speed, but a motor rated for 250W continuous output should be fine - the Torq in the UK is 200 or 250W I think, even though peak power is 570W gross, and the ezee kit is around 608W gross (450W net) peak, but because they are quite high rpm for the wheelsizes (26" or 28") they are geared high for speed & that works quite well as an augmentation/extension of your own pedal input, rather than a feeling you're just helping the motor: it feels a bit like a 'bionic' bike :).

The specs on the bike you originally posted about would probably do nicely for your flat area, but much depends on quality - of parts, controller, motor & battery: a test ride is highly recommended if at all possible (probably not?), especially if you want to pedal the bike without power at all - to see how easily the motor freewheels, for example. If you're buying a ready-made bike, I'd at least go for one where the basics are there - good quality frame & components & at least a reasonable motor, controller & battery, so that future upgrades are minimised costwise.

I also thought quite a lot about kit vs off the shelf bike before I bought a Torq, but didn't have quite the same choice on my doorstep as you have :). A ready made ebike can be quite neat, no battery fixing problems etc. but kits are appealing if they're lots cheaper.

Have fun choosing :).
 
Hi Josh and all-

I was under the impression that the simulator shows output power and not input power. Input power can be deduced from output power and efficiency. 100 watts output at 50% efficiency equals 200 watts input. I am assuming 250 watts advertised for the bike linked to in the original post is output power and not input power. This seems like a safe assumption due to the fact they claim it can go 20mph without human powered assistance.

The main thing I worry about with the bike originally posted is the quality issue as you mentioned. I like all the specs, just don't know if it's a bike that will hold up for years. What do you think?

Thanks again and take care,
Rob
 
Hi Rob

I got the same impression re output power shown on the simulator (its not clearly stated though). I wasn't referring to the simulator specifically, but for ebikes generally if the input power is known or stated e.g. 36V battery 15A current limit, peak input power is 36Vx15A=540W or nearer 38Vx15A=570W most of time, but peak output (useable) power would be aroud 70-80% of that :). Its often unclear to me what is meant when specs are given, the 250W might be input or output but agree on the 20mph its probably output, but the 400W seems to be the output i.e. net power, which seems reasonable & very similar to the Torq... in fact, the more I look at that bike, the more I think its a Torq (fixed the link now - sorry) lookalike or copy (the Torq has attracted a fair amount of publicity in some quarters, so it was only a matter of time really) probably chinese - I've seen those battery cases on other 'parts bin' bikes - same speed, same power, same style even thetwo-tone paintjob looks similar, except in red & silver obviously. Main differences are 26" wheels & rear motor, which may actually be better :).

I'd be interested to know more about where it came from & what sort of support you get would be crucial for me in a decision - failing a test ride. What's the price difference between that & an Ezee Torq in the U.S.? (Nycewheels sell them I think?) Your prices are relatively lower than ours for Ezee bikes. If the lookalike is a lot cheaper & the frame is solid enough & parts ok, might be worth a try, but much depends on the motor quality, doesn't it? :roll: also battery - I wouldn't expect it to last too long if used for 20mph speeds if its sustained current supply isn't up to it, so think about how you might recell or replace & the cost before you start, but for use on the flat & moderate speed & regular recharging, you might be fine for a good while :). Hard to tell all these things without specifics of battery etc. & with the lack of details from the retailer, I wouldn't expect the best, but no reason to assume the worst either...

I suppose if you're seriously considering it, just try to find out as much as you can to make the most informed choice you can: chances are if its a chinese Torq 'clone' that its being sold all over, maybe under different names, though thats the first time I've seen one.

Hope that helps :).
 
Hi Josh and all-

The geared motor thing worries me. All that friction has to put wear and tear to the hub. The brushless non-geared motors have so little mechanical wear in the design, it's kinda amazing. That said, the torque available with the EZ geared motor is much higher and therefore will climb and accelerate much better. Also, it's impressive that it is so light and small. I also hear there is no freewheel friction to human power, which I understand the brushless non-geared motors have. How much is the freewheel friction on the 406/407/408? I'd like to be able to use it like a regular bike sometimes.

I'm enamored with the thought of not only zero emissions, but also an absolutely silent bike. Those gas powered bikes are so loud it makes me want to go the opposite way and see how quiet a powered bike can be. I understand the geared motors do make an audible and noticeable sound when powered. I'd much rather people not notice anything different about the bike when I pass by. If you are riding down a quiet street with the Torq and pass someone at moderate to high speed, would they hear or suspect that your bike was powered? Would a absolutely quiet hub motor be much different than yours?

I have seen only great reviews on the Torq, but it is twice as expensive as the bike from the first post. It is also geared, which I know many people prefer. I just want a bike to be as quiet as when I am powering it by myself. The torque of the geared motor would be fun just like a muscle car is fun, but I'm not sure I need acceleration and may prefer quietness over acceleration.

Thanks so much, I really appreciate the dialogue,
Rob
 
I wouldn't be too concerned about gear wear & tear: as far as I know the gears should be very durable & require minimal maintainance (at the standard 36-40V and 16A limit at least), like regreasing after 10,000 miles I think? However, there is some freewheel resistance, due to the gears, but it is definitely minimal & I don't mind riding it with little or no motor power from time to time :). I don't know, but I'd be surprised if ungeared have motors have more drag? The bike you posted about may have a similar motor to the original Torq motor (doesn't look identical though) i.e. geared, but thats one of the first things I'd ask about, and their ease of freewheeling or pedalling without motor power can vary a lot.

Noisewise, at speed I'd say my Torq motor is barely louder than some rather noisy knobbly MTB tyre 'hum', or a quite loud old-fashioned friction dynamo, if you know what I mean :shock: :) so noticeable on a quiet road, yes; intrusive, no; silent, no; audible in traffic or moderate background noise, hardly at all or no. The motor in the Ezee kit & on the new Torqs is an upgrade and may well be quieter - now Ypedal has one too, there might be more feedback & info soon :). I'm also sensitive to noise and while I'd prefer it to be silent or virtually so, I don't find it a problem since its good motor for my needs. An absolutely silent hub motor would be noticeably quieter though, for sure, except on quite busy roads. On the flat, you can use a non-geared almost as easily & they're likely to be quieter I think, but others will know more on those :). The light weight of geared hubs is nice though! To be honest, I don't use the full acceleration of the Torq either, and pedal from starts with gentle throttle to increase the range per charge, so you might end up doing the same as you would with a non-geared anyway! But the geared motors are a blast to ride - look at knoxie's posts re the puma! and the speed of the Torq is plenty enough for me :).

From discussions of ebike prices here in the UK, the concensus seems to be that you pay extra for quality parts & construction, research & design investment & good support.

PS If you're really after a bike which freewheels with virtually no drag, is virtually silent & can give its full power in any gear, plus fully waterproof & 2 year guaranteed lithium battery, check out the likes of biketec & kalkhoff which use the newest version of the panasonic unit which was used in the Giant/Lafree Twist :). Check your budget first though :shock: .
 
@Rob Mcgregor:

I would want to know more about any lithium batterypack that ships installed. The lithium chemistries vary, and the older stuff (LiCo) can be dangerous without a bulletproof BMS (battery management system).

As for FS bikes: good systems are not cheap, but with the added weight of electric components, suspension can only help. Taking a 80lb bike up or down a curb is a big shock to all parts and rider.
 
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